Reid and Mahomes acknowledge impact of Alex Smith

[Codyny13]

I wonder how many weird freaks on this fan board were wearing Mahomes jerseys yesterday, running around telling everyone “they’re my second favorite team!” 

[BigBillsFan]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

#9 in total TDs. (more than Brady, Brees, Cousins, Wentz, Goff, Ryan....)

 

Tied for 1st in 4th Q comebacks.

 

10 wins (only 7 had more).

 

But yeah.....that QBR and YPA.

 

So you want to measure QBs in Kaepernick/RGIII/Lamar Jackson terms? Because that's a good recipe for QB success long term. ?

 

Yeah because wins are a product of the QB, just like Mitch Trubisky in 2018. He led his team! Hey at least Mitch was better in YPA, rating, YPG, and they ended up 12-4. And Brees sucked when they were 7-9 and he threw for 5k yards over 100 QB rating.

 

Oh that's right Mitch is on cusp of losing his job with better competition this year.

 

You see being a QB isn't cherry picking stats that don't matter long-term. If you can't throw a football well and consistently you typically don't keep your job despite rushing yards & TDs, and the INSANE AMAZING 4th quarter comebacks against the Jets, Broncos, and YES the MIGHTY Bengals really got me excited.

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, BigBillsFan said:

 

So you want to measure QBs in Kaepernick/RGIII/Lamar Jackson terms? Because that's a good recipe for QB success long term. ?

 

Yeah because wins are a product of the QB, just like Mitch Trubisky in 2018. He led his team! Hey at least Mitch was better in YPA, rating, YPG, and they ended up 12-4. And Brees sucked when they were 7-9 and he threw for 5k yards over 100 QB rating.

 

Oh that's right Mitch is on cusp of losing his job with better competition this year.

 

You see being a QB isn't cherry picking stats that don't matter long-term. If you can't throw a football well and consistently you typically don't keep your job despite rushing yards & TDs, and the INSANE AMAZING 4th quarter comebacks against the Jets, Broncos, and YES the MIGHTY Bengals really got me excited.

 

 

You will somehow be surprised but certainly disappointed to learn that Allen isn not on the cusp of losing his job.  If you can't discern a difference between his natural talent and Trubisky's, for instance, then there's no discussion to be had.  

 

Nice to see you've written off the NFL MVP already.  

 

Anyway, I'll measure a QB by potential.  29 TDs and 10 wins with Daboll (not Reid) as your play designer and caller, no serious TE,  Mediocre WR, a RB that doesn't run that often and an O-line that still has a long way to go towards decent....that's pretty good.

 

Cherry picking?  Stats that don't matter long term?  You laid down QB rating (AND QBR lol), YPA and fumbles----without a hint of irony.  Strong work, son.

[Fan in Chicago]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/29/before-patrick-mahomes-became-superstar-he-followed-blueprint-set-by-alex-smith/

 

 

 

Very classy of Reid and Mahomes to acknowledge Smith. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Very classy of Reid and Mahomes to acknowledge Smith. 

 

Gotta feel for Smith.  Gruesome injury and countless complications.

[njbuff]

4 hours ago, Commsvet11 said:

It is a a simple question, yes or no, does Josh Allen have the same success as Mahomes if he is on KC? 
 

 

Yes

[BigBillsFan]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

You will somehow be surprised but certainly disappointed to learn that Allen isn not on the cusp of losing his job.  If you can't discern a difference between his natural talent and Trubisky's, for instance, then there's no discussion to be had.  

 

Nice to see you've written off the NFL MVP already.  

 

Anyway, I'll measure a QB by potential.  29 TDs and 10 wins with Daboll (not Reid) as your play designer and caller, no serious TE,  Mediocre WR, a RB that doesn't run that often and an O-line that still has a long way to go towards decent....that's pretty good.

 

Cherry picking?  Stats that don't matter long term?  You laid down QB rating (AND QBR lol), YPA and fumbles----without a hint of irony.  Strong work, son.

 

I never said he was on the cusp of losing his job, or that I've written off the MVP (even remotely) so congrats on defeating the best arguments I've never made.

 

I did say if Allen has a bad year next year, or has the same stats as this year his job will be on the line.

 

And yes if you didn't know that QB rating, YPA and fumbles aren't huge components to long-term success than your rose colored glasses aren't changing color soon.

 

COMPARE important stats:

YPA vs rushing per game

Passing TDs vs rushing TDs

Passing yards vs rushing yards

You'll see history hasn't been kind to people who use your stats.

 

BTW I'm not a big fan of QBR but I ask you if QBR and best players have any connection?
https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/player/_/season/2019/seasontype/2/table/passing/sort/adjQBR/dir/desc

It appears it's a decent indicator of all the top QBs except Aaron Rodgers this year.

 

Or maybe if Josh Allen can't beat Gardner Minshew on QBR, QB rating, YPA, YPG & more TDs as a QB with 14 games as a rookie than any argument is viable. I mean I would be ecstatic if Allen could have pulled what Nick Mullins did for the 49ers last year this year. Nick Freaking Mullins

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Codyny13 said:

I wonder how many weird freaks on this fan board were wearing Mahomes jerseys yesterday, running around telling everyone “they’re my second favorite team!” 

 

You need to get out more, Mebbe?

 

1 hour ago, njbuff said:

Yes

 

Ooooh, Salty. 

 

 

 

Even I couldn't go quite that far.  I'd have said "no, better than he looks here, but not Mahomes-like"

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BigBillsFan said:

I never said he was on the cusp of losing his job, or that I've written off the MVP (even remotely) so congrats on defeating the best arguments I've never made.

I did say if Allen has a bad year next year, or has the same stats as this year his job will be on the line.

 

If it's not saying he's on the "cusp of losing his job" to say if he has the same stats as this year his job will be on the line, I'm not sure what is.

 

Quote

Or maybe if Josh Allen can't beat Gardner Minshew on QBR, QB rating, YPA, YPG & more TDs as a QB with 14 games as a rookie than any argument is viable. I mean I would be ecstatic if Allen could have pulled what Nick Mullins did for the 49ers last year this year. Nick Freaking Mullins

 

You do know that the goal of a football team isn't to pile up stats that are better than other team's QB, no?

It's to...wait for it...win football games?

 

I mean, you can go be all ecstatic about Nick Mullins and his 3 wins for the 49ers last year if you like. 

We do know they drafted #2 last year, right, that's how they got Bosa?

[Prickly Pete]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/01/29/before-patrick-mahomes-became-superstar-he-followed-blueprint-set-by-alex-smith/

 

“Alex Smith was great for Patrick,” Chiefs Coach Andy Reid said. “Alex Smith is a great person and a great player. I wish I would have had him when he was young. I got him when he was a little bit older.”

 

 “I attribute a lot of my early success to Alex, the way he was able to be a pro every single day and the way he was able to go about not only being a great football player but a great human being,” Mahomes said. “It showed me a ton. I learned a lot about how to read coverages and blitzes from him. He gave me a blueprint of how to go about a week and preparing yourself. It showed me how to have success at an early point in my career that I don’t think I would have gotten anywhere else.”

 

 

 

 

Now is a time to say nice things. And of course, some reporter probably asked about him, so what are they gonna say "Well, Alex isn't here any more, and he was just kind of in the way of Patrick"?

 

Maybe I'm just prickly because it reminds me of Gore. I think the mentoring is overrated, especially for a RB. I'm sure Alex Smith was helpful, but would some other journeyman, who knew his job depended on helping the Rook, do any different? I think Mahomes was gonna develop just fine with Reid as his mentor. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Commsvet11 said:

It is a a simple question, yes or no, does Josh Allen have the same success as Mahomes if he is on KC? 
 

 

 

 

YES.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by 32ABBA

[BigBillsFan]

45 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If it's not saying he's on the "cusp of losing his job" to say if he has the same stats as this year his job will be on the line, I'm not sure what is.

 

1 yr in football is a long time. His job is safe this year. That's not the cusp of losing his job. Football years are like dog years.

 

Quote

 

You do know that the goal of a football team isn't to pile up stats that are better than other team's QB, no?

It's to...wait for it...win football games?

 

I mean, you can go be all ecstatic about Nick Mullins and his 3 wins for the 49ers last year if you like. 

We do know they drafted #2 last year, right, that's how they got Bosa?

 

 

You do know that the goal of winning isn't on 1 person, no? That development and seeing signs they can succeed on the big stage is more important than winning? That people on bad teams aren't responsible for all of the losses or that people like Peyton Manning who showed promise as a rookie was much better than playing it safe for wins right?

 

Nick Mullins in his rookie year showed more than Allen in his and his 2nd year. Are you really going to deny that? If Allen had any games like Mullins THIS year people would be hush hush about development.

 

This isn't a game of magical QBs. You think Brees's 2016 season at 7-9 is because of Brees? Or that the 12-4 Bears last year was because of Trubisky? Brees threw for over 5k yards, 70% completions, over 100 QB rating, over 7 yards a completion and they were still bad because of their defense.

 

Wins don't = QB. Brees played fantastic and for 3 years in a row the Saints were 7-9. Manning in his prime was better than EVERYONE IMO (maybe Rogers is an exception) and only 1 SB and only won his 2nd when he sucked. Did Manning win the big game for the Broncos too? 13-23 141 yards 0 TDs 1 INT.

Edited February 4, 2020 by BigBillsFan

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

Since I specified "in the minds of a number of folks here", how's about I let you take that up with them? 

You know the usual suspects.  They are quite clear that Allen has next year to show he's great, or GROH - "no more excuses"

 

 

Mahomes is listed as 6'3", 230 lbs and our OL in 2017 was actually OK - we managed to be #6 in rush yards gained on the strength of it.

 

I'm not convinced a QB's size makes him sturdier, so unsure Allen's extra 2" and 10 lbs make that much difference.

 

I mean it's not necessarily true that if Allen doesn't take a giant leap forward that he wont amount to anything. Ben Roethlisberger regressed bad in his 3rd year after game managing the first 2, it wasn't until year 4 where he truly became Big Ben. Andy Reid is a hell of a teacher for QB's especially and always surrounds himself with great coaches. I'm not sure if Daboll is the right coach to tudor Josh Allen, his play calling is very bland imo.

[iinii]

9 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

They are acknowledging the impact on Alex Smith's fibula...

 

Those 2017 Bills went to the playoffs--even with the Taylor-Peterman combo.

 

Is Josh Allen, who got killed a lot in his first year starting on the (6-10) Bills, hanging by a thread career-wise?

Thanks for clearing that one up. Revisionist history is always 20/20.

[Thurman#1]

 

 

10 hours ago, Boca BIlls said:

Even without Alex Smith Mahomes would be the exact guy he is now.

 

 

Yeah, fans know way better than Andy Reid or Mahomes himself.

 

There's no reason to think you're right about that. He had the whole year to concentrate more on putting together the mechanics and understanding of defenses that he needed to. He didn't have to worry about week-to-week game-planning.

 

When you saw videos of the practices that year, you'd see him again and again ten yards behind Smith, mirroring every step on that rep and going through progressions trying to see what Smith saw and why he did what he did. Having that year was huge, and having it behind a smart guy like Smith made it even more valuable.

 

Reid is a guy known for developing QBs. Him and McCarthy are among the absolute best in the game for developing a QB. That year was valuable for him, very valuable.

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

Allen currently is poor, in bottom 1/3rd of all QBs. Sorry that’s just a truth.

 

 

Listen, drop over to the house some time and I'll be glad to teach you the difference between "truth" and "questionable personal opinion."

 

What you've got there is the latter.

[H2o]

[BringBackOrton]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I can't control how you flap your ears

Selective amnesia won’t change the truth.

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, BigBillsFan said:

 

FACTS 2019

Last in YPG
Last in completion %

Last in TDs thrown for 16 starts

Bottom 10% in fumbles

Bottom 33% in QB rating
Bottom 33% in QBR

Bottom 33% in YPA

 

 

 

YPG is a nonsense stat. Depends far too much on how many throws a guy made, play calls, how often his team was ahead and whether they like to run out the clock, as the Bills do, when they are ahead.

 

And what a surprise that you left all the running stuff out!  Gosh, who could have predicted that? Except anyone looking at your agenda, of course.

 

As for the rest of these stats, they're not all that representative of who Allen is now. If he'd stayed the same QB he was through the first four games of the year, we really would be in the position of having to worry. But he didn't. As he said, the NE game was a wakeup call for him and he played much better after it, as all his stats show.

 

Taking passer rating as just one example, if you take his passer rating for the final 12 games of the season, it's not even close to the bottom 33% of starters. It's actually in the top half, 16th to be precise. Hell, his TDs:INTs ratio was 17:3, which put him well in the top third.

 

So even throwing out the run stats, which shouldn't be done, he wasn't bottom third after those first four games. Again, what you have there is a very questionable opinion.

 

 

12 minutes ago, H2o said:

 

 

Doh!!! Right is right, and you're right. Thanks for the reminder.

[Thurman#1]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

#9 in total TDs. (more than Brady, Brees, Cousins, Wentz, Goff, Ryan....)

 

Tied for 1st in 4th Q comebacks.

 

10 wins (only 7 had more).

 

But yeah.....that QBR and YPA.

 

 

 

 

 

As I said....credit Reid for seeing the obvious and picking Mahomes.  I never understood the argument that "x amount of teams passed on him"---that's a testament to bad decision making.

 

Footwork and Mechanics?  They have served him well the past 2 years.  In fact Reid took of advantage of his footwork and "mechanics".  They are the foundation of Mahomes success, as it turns out.  Reid himself would tell you that.....

 

 

 

I believe you're using "footwork and mechanics" in a different way than it was intended, and in a different way than it is usually used about QBs.

 

When he came out of college, he absolutely had some specific traits that were advanced, his ability to adjust arm angles, his unconventional ways of doing things. But those aren't what people generally are referring to when they talk about mechanics.

 

I went back to a (very prescient and smart) pre-draft piece on Mahomes by Matt Waldman. He uses mechanics that way it's meant here, saying Mahomes needed work on his mechanics ... but that you wouldn't want to turn him into a robo-QB. Reid took advantage of his innate abilities but not his mechanics. Here's an excerpt:

 

 

 

"Mahomes will not be a good choice for a team that has a coach or general manager that covets the safety of a passer that thinks, moves, and functions as one of the thousands that could have rolled off an assembly line. It’s not that Mahomes can’t develop into a technically sound quarterback, it’s that he needs an organization that will allow him to build on his strengths. And his strengths are not part of that straight and narrow path of traditional quarterback development.

 

"Mahomes has the caliber of arm and accuracy that allows him to make pinpoint throws without the constant need of fundamentally sound footwork. A former shortstop and son of a major league baseball player, Mahomes throws the football with the accuracy, velocity, and acrobatics of an infielder.

The speed of his feet and Mahomes’ wide range of arm angles and accurate delivery points are rare gifts. Identifying and addressing areas where Mahomes can make easy fixes on traditional drops, sets, and pocket movement is a reasonable expectation for his long-term development. But thinking that Mahomes needs to eliminate the baseball infielder from his game is misguided and dangerous.

 

"Good developers of talent recognize gifts and focus on ways to build on the positives. They also possess the wisdom to ensure that the effort to correct the negatives doesn’t bury the very things that make the individual special.

 

"Learning proper three, five, and seven-step drops with a good setup won’t be difficult long-term, and it will set him up for future success with on-platform throws. We see young passers develop these skills every year. What we don’t see every year is a prospect with fast, fluid, flexible maneuverability, and extreme accuracy with unconventional footwork when forced off-script.

 

"At this point of his career, Mahomes will always have moments where is footwork is sloppy because he’s played long enough with these mechanics that some of his setups and release points will be difficult to change. But with the exception of Mahomes’ opponents, there will be a lot of plays where no one will want him to eliminate these things from his game.

 

"Mahomes can deliver accurate intermediate and long-range passes with velocity and touch. Some of his touch passes, such as a 38-yard completion from the opposite hash thrown with pressure in his face, were calculated strokes of genius.

 

"It’s Mahomes’ skill for delivering the ball with a wide range of velocity, touch, arm slots, and stances that make him dangerous. While he’s not a significant breakaway threat, he’s quick enough to buy time, big enough to shake off defenders, and has the arm talent to successfully target open receivers as the secondary breaks down. These are the skills that made Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, and Brett Favre stars in the league."

 

https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2018/09/22/chiefs-qb-patrick-mahomes-matt-waldmans-rsp-pre-nfl-draft-scouting-report/

 

 

 

Exactly. He still needed to learn mechanics and footwork but you didn't want to take him out of his game when pressure or a good defensive call made things difficult for him.

 

That report was originally written for Waldman's 2017 draft guide and man, did he ever nail it, and it looks like Reid did exactly what Waldman thought whoever picked Mahomes would need to do.

 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Thurman#1

[Mr. WEO]

40 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

I believe you're using "footwork and mechanics" in a different way than it was intended, and in a different way than it is usually used about QBs.

 

When he came out of college, he absolutely had some specific traits that were advanced, his ability to adjust arm angles, his unconventional ways of doing things. But those aren't what people generally are referring to when they talk about mechanics.

 

I went back to a (very prescient and smart) pre-draft piece on Mahomes by Matt Waldman. He uses mechanics that way it's meant here, saying Mahomes needed work on his mechanics ... but that you wouldn't want to turn him into a robo-QB. Reid took advantage of his innate abilities but not his mechanics. Here's an excerpt:

 

 

 

"Mahomes will not be a good choice for a team that has a coach or general manager that covets the safety of a passer that thinks, moves, and functions as one of the thousands that could have rolled off an assembly line. It’s not that Mahomes can’t develop into a technically sound quarterback, it’s that he needs an organization that will allow him to build on his strengths. And his strengths are not part of that straight and narrow path of traditional quarterback development.

 

"Mahomes has the caliber of arm and accuracy that allows him to make pinpoint throws without the constant need of fundamentally sound footwork. A former shortstop and son of a major league baseball player, Mahomes throws the football with the accuracy, velocity, and acrobatics of an infielder.

The speed of his feet and Mahomes’ wide range of arm angles and accurate delivery points are rare gifts. Identifying and addressing areas where Mahomes can make easy fixes on traditional drops, sets, and pocket movement is a reasonable expectation for his long-term development. But thinking that Mahomes needs to eliminate the baseball infielder from his game is misguided and dangerous.

 

"Good developers of talent recognize gifts and focus on ways to build on the positives. They also possess the wisdom to ensure that the effort to correct the negatives doesn’t bury the very things that make the individual special.

 

"Learning proper three, five, and seven-step drops with a good setup won’t be difficult long-term, and it will set him up for future success with on-platform throws. We see young passers develop these skills every year. What we don’t see every year is a prospect with fast, fluid, flexible maneuverability, and extreme accuracy with unconventional footwork when forced off-script.

 

"At this point of his career, Mahomes will always have moments where is footwork is sloppy because he’s played long enough with these mechanics that some of his setups and release points will be difficult to change. But with the exception of Mahomes’ opponents, there will be a lot of plays where no one will want him to eliminate these things from his game.

 

"Mahomes can deliver accurate intermediate and long-range passes with velocity and touch. Some of his touch passes, such as a 38-yard completion from the opposite hash thrown with pressure in his face, were calculated strokes of genius.

 

"It’s Mahomes’ skill for delivering the ball with a wide range of velocity, touch, arm slots, and stances that make him dangerous. While he’s not a significant breakaway threat, he’s quick enough to buy time, big enough to shake off defenders, and has the arm talent to successfully target open receivers as the secondary breaks down. These are the skills that made Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, and Brett Favre stars in the league."

 

https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2018/09/22/chiefs-qb-patrick-mahomes-matt-waldmans-rsp-pre-nfl-draft-scouting-report/

 

 

 

Exactly. He still needed to learn mechanics and footwork but you didn't want to take him out of his game when pressure or a good defensive call made things difficult for him.

 

That report was originally written for Waldman's 2017 draft guide and man, did he ever nail it, and it looks like Reid did exactly what Waldman thought whoever picked Mahomes would need to do.

 

 

 

This is the part I agree with most---and it hasn't changed for him in KC.  Just go back and watch the SB--he's taking 9 step drops.  He takes the snap and runs back into a clear space to see the field then does his thing.  All year everyone has commented on his unusual delivery (in that he throws it anyway he needs to when the situation demands it).   It really isn't much different from what he was doing in college.