whatdrought Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 Just now, Virgil said: ***TRADE*** The Carolina Panthers have made a trade with the Kansas City Chiefs The Chiefs receive: Panthers 2nd round pick Panther 4th round pick The Panthers receive: The 49ers 1st round pick. With the 32nd and final pick of the 1st round, the Carolina Panthers select Jake Fromm, QB, Georgia Steelers are yours Hm.. I'd have gone for Jacob Eason. 2
Reed83HOF Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, Virgil said: The 49ers select Grant Delpit, S, LSU The Chiefs @bkep32are on the clock for the last pick of the first round My biggest concern with giving up picks in the first 4 rounds to move up in this years draft is more around me believing that strong talent is going to fall. Already in this mock, there's a few guys that we could easily trade up to get in the 2nd round that are strong first round talents. It's not that I don't believe in your assessment of Ruggs, it's that I think we will be better off with our 22nd pick and who we can also add in rounds 2 and 3. My point is this looking at first or second or third etc. round grades is important, but looking at what separates elite talent from the non-elite talent, Higgins, Shenault, Aiyuk etc are not considered the elite talents. Some will bust, some won't; but they will have a longer period of time before they grow and contribute. A portion of this board, is #1 afraid to move around in the draft, most likely scarred by the Sammy trade in 2014, #2 overvalues the number of draft picks in relation to talent level on this team. The Sammy trade: That Sammy trade was bad because the top 3 tier 1 elite WRs were on the board and we moved up 5 spots for him. The fact is that at pick 9 we would likely have had the choice between Evans & OBJ, if TB did indeed take Sammy, or it would have been Sammy vs OBJ there most likely - still getting your elite WR. Revionist history says well Landry and Admas turned out good in RD2 - Landry ran a 4.77 at the combine and only had 12 starts in his college career. Adams had a ton of question marks as well and that is what you expect in the Tier 2 guys - they take longer. I'm not taking a player like that at pick#22 - those are the guys who bust see Aaron Maybin. Now to address the draft pick hoarding: Beane has already come out and said he won't use the late round picks as they won't make the team. The roster is filled out and missing elite talent on offense. Who is our elite talent on offense? Who do the DCs game plan around - not one person other than Allen's running ability, we are not scoring more points like this. Can anyone answer this question? We are not gaining separation at the WR position, we are not getting YAC; we were 29th in that category this year. Those are 2 of the most important categories since that opens up the rest of the field and players who are actually pretty good at having a cushion around them and rate highly in the league (5th & 9th IIRC). We didn't score enough points to win in Houston - what WRs can come in in the draft and immediately rectify these issues and start day 1? It's not Shenault The deep draft class argument: A deep draft class for one position says there is more talent overall available, but elite talent is still elite talent and those numbers are still limited. Would you rather have a WR who contributes immediately on day 1 or do you want to wait until 2021 to 2022 for them to develop, because that is what a deep draft is...More talent throughout, that will take longer to develop. It will also allow the teams picking in front of us to chase the other elite talent at positions that are more critical for their team, such as QB, OL, Edge, DB. this will push those 3 WRs down further since they will use the depth to take a WR who will likely take longer to develop and have other knocks against them in the tier 2 and lower groups. Reality at pick #22: BPA at Pick#22 is very likely a CB/S who will be a tier 1 talent and you will be reaching for the tier 2 WRs at that pick, who can be had in RD2. At this point, it would be better to trade up there in RD2 for that player. The issue is that tier 2 WR will not help you as much this year, but possibly in 2021/2022, vs a high ceiling elite athlete like the other 3 who are more refined and developed. I purposely selected the Bills to push this very point. In this scenario do you overdraft the WR vs top talent in another position (of need, lesser, but still a need) and not address the main reason you didn't win against Houston or any of the playoff teams in 2019 for that matter? You can substitute DE here for CB, but it is likely that those top tier guys won't be there either. Again, which one of them will help us score more points in 2020 immediately?
Virgil Posted February 6, 2020 Author Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, whatdrought said: Hm.. I'd have gone for Jacob Eason. I really debated between the two. Eason is more of a project and more "experts" had Fromm as the better pick. I've been a Fromm guy and think he has the potential, but also worry he may have peaked. It really was a toss up that I think will get cleared up at the combine The Bengals @Pete are on the clock Edited February 6, 2020 by Virgil
Philo Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Virgil said: ***TRADE*** The Carolina Panthers have made a trade with the Kansas City Chiefs The Chiefs receive: Panthers 2nd round pick Panther 4th round pick The Panthers receive: The 49ers 1st round pick. With the 32nd and final pick of the 1st round, the Carolina Panthers select Jake Fromm, QB, Georgia Steelers are yours The one used to take Delpit or the one used to take Higgins?
whatdrought Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Virgil said: I really debated between the two. Eason is more of a project and more "experts" had Fromm as the better pick. I've been a Fromm guy and think he has the potential, but also worry he may have peaked. It really was a toss up that I think will get cleared up at the combine It's definitely an interesting debate. People seem all over the place on Eason, I saw a mock where he went 14th, but most don't have him in the first round. I guess I prefer the athletic potential as Fromm looks like so many other college guys who have the IQ but just don't have the body to do anything with it. 1 minute ago, Philo said: The one used to take Delpit or the one used to take Higgins? Pretty sure @Virgil is strung out on some Nyquil today. Edited February 6, 2020 by whatdrought 1
Philo Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 1 minute ago, whatdrought said: It's definitely an interesting debate. People seem all over the place on Eason, I saw a mock where he went 14th, but most don't have him in the first round. I guess I prefer the athletic potential as Fromm looks like so many other college guys who have the IQ but just don't have the body to do anything with it. Pretty sure @Virgil is strung out on some Nyquil today. Oh I know, I just couldn't help it. Feel better @Virgil ! 1
Virgil Posted February 6, 2020 Author Posted February 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: My point is this looking at first or second or third etc. round grades is important, but looking at what separates elite talent from the non-elite talent, Higgins, Shenault, Aiyuk etc are not considered the elite talents. Some will bust, some won't; but they will have a longer period of time before they grow and contribute. A portion of this board, is #1 afraid to move around in the draft, most likely scarred by the Sammy trade in 2014, #2 overvalues the number of draft picks in relation to talent level on this team. The Sammy trade: That Sammy trade was bad because the top 3 tier 1 elite WRs were on the board and we moved up 5 spots for him. The fact is that at pick 9 we would likely have had the choice between Evans & OBJ, if TB did indeed take Sammy, or it would have been Sammy vs OBJ there most likely - still getting your elite WR. Revionist history says well Landry and Admas turned out good in RD2 - Landry ran a 4.77 at the combine and only had 12 starts in his college career. Adams had a ton of question marks as well and that is what you expect in the Tier 2 guys - they take longer. I'm not taking a player like that at pick#22 - those are the guys who bust see Aaron Maybin. Now to address the draft pick hoarding: Beane has already come out and said he won't use the late round picks as they won't make the team. The roster is filled out and missing elite talent on offense. Who is our elite talent on offense? Who do the DCs game plan around - not one person other than Allen's running ability, we are not scoring more points like this. Can anyone answer this question? We are not gaining separation at the WR position, we are not getting YAC; we were 29th in that category this year. Those are 2 of the most important categories since that opens up the rest of the field and players who are actually pretty good at having a cushion around them and rate highly in the league (5th & 9th IIRC). We didn't score enough points to win in Houston - what WRs can come in in the draft and immediately rectify these issues and start day 1? It's not Shenault The deep draft class argument: A deep draft class for one position says there is more talent overall available, but elite talent is still elite talent and those numbers are still limited. Would you rather have a WR who contributes immediately on day 1 or do you want to wait until 2021 to 2022 for them to develop, because that is what a deep draft is...More talent throughout, that will take longer to develop. It will also allow the teams picking in front of us to chase the other elite talent at positions that are more critical for their team, such as QB, OL, Edge, DB. this will push those 3 WRs down further since they will use the depth to take a WR who will likely take longer to develop and have other knocks against them in the tier 2 and lower groups. Reality at pick #22: BPA at Pick#22 is very likely a CB/S who will be a tier 1 talent and you will be reaching for the tier 2 WRs at that pick, who can be had in RD2. At this point, it would be better to trade up there in RD2 for that player. The issue is that tier 2 WR will not help you as much this year, but possibly in 2021/2022, vs a high ceiling elite athlete like the other 3 who are more refined and developed. I purposely selected the Bills to push this very point. In this scenario do you overdraft the WR vs top talent in another position (of need, lesser, but still a need) and not address the main reason you didn't win against Houston or any of the playoff teams in 2019 for that matter? You can substitute DE here for CB, but it is likely that those top tier guys won't be there either. Again, which one of them will help us score more points in 2020 immediately? Sammy Trade - Going off memory alone, Sammy was considered to be the elite receiver of the class going into the draft as the rest all had question marks around them. Evans was probably the next best, but there were speed concerns. OBJ and Hopkins were potential, but also not considered top tier. Deep Draft - I think it all comes down to who you consider in the top tier. I think Higgins is in that top tier and some have the Colorado kid in their too. I agree with the rest. It's a great draft who teams looking for compliment receivers. New England, for example, could have a field day in this draft. Hoarding Picks - I think I said this before, but I think round 2 and 3 picks are where Beane has been spot on and that makes those picks too valuable to trade. I think the people we want will fall close to where we pick, so they can use picks in rounds 4-7 to move up a few spots if needbe. I don't see many splash trades. 2 minutes ago, Philo said: Oh I know, I just couldn't help it. Feel better @Virgil ! I have certain set of skills........... 4 minutes ago, whatdrought said: Pretty sure @Virgil is strung out on some Nyquil today. I'm strung out on something. The old noodle isn't fully kicking today 5 minutes ago, whatdrought said: It's definitely an interesting debate. People seem all over the place on Eason, I saw a mock where he went 14th, but most don't have him in the first round. I guess I prefer the athletic potential as Fromm looks like so many other college guys who have the IQ but just don't have the body to do anything with it. The main reason I thought about Eason is because he reminds me of Cam a little bit and the offense is already set up that way. But, with them trying to do things different, relying on McCaffrey, they can bring someone like Fromm along and really develop him
Reed83HOF Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Virgil said: Sammy Trade - Going off memory alone, Sammy was considered to be the elite receiver of the class going into the draft as the rest all had question marks around them. Evans was probably the next best, but there were speed concerns. OBJ and Hopkins were potential, but also not considered top tier. Deep Draft - I think it all comes down to who you consider in the top tier. I think Higgins is in that top tier and some have the Colorado kid in their too. I agree with the rest. It's a great draft who teams looking for compliment receivers. New England, for example, could have a field day in this draft. Hoarding Picks - I think I said this before, but I think round 2 and 3 picks are where Beane has been spot on and that makes those picks too valuable to trade. I think the people we want will fall close to where we pick, so they can use picks in rounds 4-7 to move up a few spots if needbe. I don't see many splash trades. Hopkins was the year before in 2013. Mayock's rankings: Top100 Nolan Nawrocki - guy is a legend Walter football Besides this board - who has Higgins and Shenault as a tier 1 WR? Edited February 6, 2020 by Reed83HOF
Virgil Posted February 6, 2020 Author Posted February 6, 2020 1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said: Hopkins was the year before in 2013. Mayock's rankings: Top100 Nolan Nawrocki - guy is a legend Walter football I said from memory!!!!! Stop cheating 1
Reed83HOF Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 Just now, Virgil said: I said from memory!!!!! Stop cheating Not beating you up sweetie! 1
Buffalo Junction Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 26 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: My point is this looking at first or second or third etc. round grades is important, but looking at what separates elite talent from the non-elite talent, Higgins, Shenault, Aiyuk etc are not considered the elite talents. Some will bust, some won't; but they will have a longer period of time before they grow and contribute. A portion of this board, is #1 afraid to move around in the draft, most likely scarred by the Sammy trade in 2014, #2 overvalues the number of draft picks in relation to talent level on this team. The Sammy trade: That Sammy trade was bad because the top 3 tier 1 elite WRs were on the board and we moved up 5 spots for him. The fact is that at pick 9 we would likely have had the choice between Evans & OBJ, if TB did indeed take Sammy, or it would have been Sammy vs OBJ there most likely - still getting your elite WR. Revionist history says well Landry and Admas turned out good in RD2 - Landry ran a 4.77 at the combine and only had 12 starts in his college career. Adams had a ton of question marks as well and that is what you expect in the Tier 2 guys - they take longer. I'm not taking a player like that at pick#22 - those are the guys who bust see Aaron Maybin. Now to address the draft pick hoarding: Beane has already come out and said he won't use the late round picks as they won't make the team. The roster is filled out and missing elite talent on offense. Who is our elite talent on offense? Who do the DCs game plan around - not one person other than Allen's running ability, we are not scoring more points like this. Can anyone answer this question? We are not gaining separation at the WR position, we are not getting YAC; we were 29th in that category this year. Those are 2 of the most important categories since that opens up the rest of the field and players who are actually pretty good at having a cushion around them and rate highly in the league (5th & 9th IIRC). We didn't score enough points to win in Houston - what WRs can come in in the draft and immediately rectify these issues and start day 1? It's not Shenault The deep draft class argument: A deep draft class for one position says there is more talent overall available, but elite talent is still elite talent and those numbers are still limited. Would you rather have a WR who contributes immediately on day 1 or do you want to wait until 2021 to 2022 for them to develop, because that is what a deep draft is...More talent throughout, that will take longer to develop. It will also allow the teams picking in front of us to chase the other elite talent at positions that are more critical for their team, such as QB, OL, Edge, DB. this will push those 3 WRs down further since they will use the depth to take a WR who will likely take longer to develop and have other knocks against them in the tier 2 and lower groups. Reality at pick #22: BPA at Pick#22 is very likely a CB/S who will be a tier 1 talent and you will be reaching for the tier 2 WRs at that pick, who can be had in RD2. At this point, it would be better to trade up there in RD2 for that player. The issue is that tier 2 WR will not help you as much this year, but possibly in 2021/2022, vs a high ceiling elite athlete like the other 3 who are more refined and developed. I purposely selected the Bills to push this very point. In this scenario do you overdraft the WR vs top talent in another position (of need, lesser, but still a need) and not address the main reason you didn't win against Houston or any of the playoff teams in 2019 for that matter? You can substitute DE here for CB, but it is likely that those top tier guys won't be there either. Again, which one of them will help us score more points in 2020 immediately? This is exactly why I went with Murray for GB. There is one ILB in this draft that scouts worthy of a 1st round pick. The rest have too many flaws to be plug and play. As opposed to WR where there’s enough talent to find guys that contribute in roles without needing to be immediate contributors at X or Z spots. Granted, when you’re picking for a team with D Adams you already have a WR1. I was livid with the Watkins pick though. I really thought they were going to grab Mack with the trade up. Lost a remote thanks to that when my buddy whipped it at the tv.... fortunately too drunk to be accurate. At least the cable guy replaced it for free because my reason for damage was “Watkins instead of Mack” @Virgil. I’m willing to take on another team if it speeds this thing up. 1
DJB Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 (edited) How did I get passed on my pick if it hasn't even been 4 hours since the pick before mine? @Virgil ? I had been on this site twice already today Edited February 6, 2020 by DJB
Virgil Posted February 6, 2020 Author Posted February 6, 2020 1 minute ago, DJB said: How did I get passed on my pick if it hasn't even been 4 hours since the pick before mine? You hadn’t been on for a bit and we moved it along. No offense intended. Just had to make a choice
DJB Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Virgil said: You hadn’t been on for a bit and we moved it along. No offense intended. Just had to make a choice I was in at around 10AM and again around noon. I thought I also read that there would be 4 hours for people to make picks. Not even 3 hours had passed since the GM before me.went and already someone made my pick for me. Disappointing and not pleased with how this was run unfortunately
Gugny Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, Virgil said: You hadn’t been on for a bit and we moved it along. No offense intended. Just had to make a choice This is why I don't join. Favoritism. 1
Reed83HOF Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 Just now, Buffalo Junction said: This is exactly why I went with Murray for GB. There is one ILB in this draft that scouts worthy of a 1st round pick. The rest have too many flaws to be plug and play. As opposed to WR where there’s enough talent to find guys that contribute in roles without needing to be immediate contributors at X or Z spots. Granted, when you’re picking for a team with D Adams you already have a WR1. I was livid with the Watkins pick though. I really thought they were going to grab Mack with the trade up. Lost a remote thanks to that when my buddy whipped it at the tv.... fortunately too drunk to be accurate. At least the cable guy replaced it for free because my reason for damage was “Watkins instead of Mack” It's tough man. I'm thrilled the season went as well as it did; the issue with having a good season is this. Going into the year looking at all of the potential question marks on offense - will the Oline gel, how will the TEs work out, what will RB end up like, you knew that Beasley and Brown would help, but it was still an underwhelming WR group that lacked true star power and that played out during the season. Beane was as honest as anyone could be at the end of season presser - we didn't score enough points. What held us back on most of our losses this year, the inability to move the ball and score points? A lot of that was from the lack of pass catchers on this team and not having a threat other than Josh to game plan against. The "problem" you run into in having a good amount of wins is sliding down in the draft where you can get the right talent that you need to get that talent it will cost you and you have to weigh it all out. If we were right around pick#15 it would be ideal, now to make a move, that you really should make - it is going to cost you, but we have a very solid roster and not a ton of needs. so you can be a bit ballsier than you normally would be. We are not close to the the 2014 Bills roster, but closer to the 2011 Atlanta Falcons who gave up Pick#26 (RD1), pick#59(RD2) & pick#124(RD4) for pick#6 to take Julio. I'm stealing this from Bandit in another thread, but don't discount what is required of a WR in Daboll's offense - they have to read the D and know what route to run against it; we don't run the wildcat, or other gadget plays etc. Learning a route tree takes time, being able to make the correct reads takes time etc. How do you fix what the GM said is your biggest need to score points? What are the underlying causes of that - lack of a big time player to draw coverage away from your #2 & #3 WRs, your developing TE with iffy hands and one with a bad ankle. The Watkins issue was trying to force a WR on a crappy QB choice in the previous draft. I hate looking at these old drafts, our FO was so awful it makes me sick to my stomach. There were so many holes, but Mack was the correct choice. At that point WR was a premium position that we did not need. This year, it is the exact position we need and it is for the difference maker like a Julio and not someone who needs to marinate for a few years. I really think Beane is going to swing big, if, he fills the rest of the holes in FA. We have not spent a premium pick on offense except for Allen. I think you chose right for GB, their D still has quite away to go and limits what the offense can really do. You can't push talent up the board to fill a need. 1
whatdrought Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 3 minutes ago, Gugny said: This is why I don't join. Favoritism. Erm.. this is awkard... Did you think not being able to join was a choice that you made?... I guess whatever helps you sleep at night... 2
Philo Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: It's tough man. I'm thrilled the season went as well as it did; the issue with having a good season is this. Going into the year looking at all of the potential question marks on offense - will the Oline gel, how will the TEs work out, what will RB end up like, you knew that Beasley and Brown would help, but it was still an underwhelming WR group that lacked true star power and that played out during the season. Beane was as honest as anyone could be at the end of season presser - we didn't score enough points. What held us back on most of our losses this year, the inability to move the ball and score points? A lot of that was from the lack of pass catchers on this team and not having a threat other than Josh to game plan against. The "problem" you run into in having a good amount of wins is sliding down in the draft where you can get the right talent that you need to get that talent it will cost you and you have to weigh it all out. If we were right around pick#15 it would be ideal, now to make a move, that you really should make - it is going to cost you, but we have a very solid roster and not a ton of needs. so you can be a bit ballsier than you normally would be. We are not close to the the 2014 Bills roster, but closer to the 2011 Atlanta Falcons who gave up Pick#26 (RD1), pick#59(RD2) & pick#124(RD4) for pick#6 to take Julio. I'm stealing this from Bandit in another thread, but don't discount what is required of a WR in Daboll's offense - they have to read the D and know what route to run against it; we don't run the wildcat, or other gadget plays etc. Learning a route tree takes time, being able to make the correct reads takes time etc. How do you fix what the GM said is your biggest need to score points? What are the underlying causes of that - lack of a big time player to draw coverage away from your #2 & #3 WRs, your developing TE with iffy hands and one with a bad ankle. The Watkins issue was trying to force a WR on a crappy QB choice in the previous draft. I hate looking at these old drafts, our FO was so awful it makes me sick to my stomach. There were so many holes, but Mack was the correct choice. At that point WR was a premium position that we did not need. This year, it is the exact position we need and it is for the difference maker like a Julio and not someone who needs to marinate for a few years. I really think Beane is going to swing big, if, he fills the rest of the holes in FA. We have not spent a premium pick on offense except for Allen. I think you chose right for GB, their D still has quite away to go and limits what the offense can really do. You can't push talent up the board to fill a need. The more I read your posts on the topic the more I am coming around to the idea. Get that elite talent to allow the offense to take that next step. Free agency is going to say a lot about whether or not Beane is following your line of thinking. If DE and CB2 is addressed then I can definitely see Beane taking that big swing. We have the later rounds picks to package and move back up into say round 3 to mitigate the loss of picks in a trade up scenario. There's no way 6 Day 3 picks make the roster.
Virgil Posted February 6, 2020 Author Posted February 6, 2020 11 minutes ago, Gugny said: This is why I don't join. Favoritism. You weren’t even invited. We don’t want your kind 12 minutes ago, DJB said: I was in at around 10AM and again around noon. I thought I also read that there would be 4 hours for people to make picks. Not even 3 hours had passed since the GM before me.went and already someone made my pick for me. Disappointing and not pleased with how this was run unfortunately I do my best man. It’s about flow, how much people respond, log on, just overall feel for how it’s all going. Again, not personal but you are entitled to your feelings. If we truly go a full 4 hours every pick, people lose interest.
whatdrought Posted February 6, 2020 Posted February 6, 2020 2 minutes ago, Virgil said: You weren’t even invited. We don’t want your kind. Damn yankee fans.
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