"Fraternities have been around 200 years and caused few problems"

[Hapless Bills Fan]

So this happened at the kids school last fall.  Parents of deceased filed lawsuit this week, so more details dropped.
https://www.pressconnects.com/story/news/local/watchdog/2020/01/29/lawsuit-alleges-cornell-frat-hazing-linked-antonio-tsialas-death/4409463002/
 

TL;DR: Last fall, the boy in question was invited and transported to "dirty rush" party where freshmen were encouraged/required to drink massive amounts of alcohol in a short period of time (via competitive games).  Greek rush is only allowed during winter at that school; inviting freshmen to parties where alcohol is served is against school rules; providing alcohol to minors is against NYS law.  This frat broke at least 2 school rules and violated NYS law.  No return transportation was arranged back to the freshman dorms.  The freshman at the party say most of them were blackout-drunk and vomiting after the games, and don't remember how they got home - alcohol consumption mandated by the games described was pushing death-by-acute-alcohol-toxicity levels.  The deceased was found dead in a gorge flanking the school 2 days later.  (there are some other troubling aspects to the situation such as the frat president trying to cover up the kid's presence at the party while the parents frantically searched for their missing kid, but I'll leave them aside to focus)

 

Not clear in article: The kid was found dead in a difficult-to-access area of a gorge that is considerably off his direct route home.  Word is he died of blunt force trauma, not drowning or alcohol (eg, he fell)  The area is a popular "I dare you" spot for thrill seeking kids; Cornell gated off the easiest access some years back, but kids who know how can still get there.   His friends say he didn't know how to get there, so the most likely explanation is a group of kids set out to go there after the party.   Climbing around a gorge is intrinsically risky; drunk, in the dark, obviously worse.  If he was with other people and known to fall, no one reported his fall to EMS; if he was driven to the start of the path and known to set out on it, no one reported that.

 

Lots of discussion in the Parents' Facebook group for the school, and the statement was made "Fraternities have been around for 200 years and caused very few problems in that time": the parent making that statement holds the kids personally responsible for drinking lethal quantities of alcohol and the deceased responsible for the decision to go lark about in a gorge while drunk, in the dark.

 

I am myself a Brother in a Service (formerly Scouting) fraternity.  I have lifelong friends all over the country from that.  Wouldn't change it for the world.  Back in da day, we were kinda towards the lightweight end on the drinking, and for hazing: pledges building tent platforms with us in New Hampshire for a long weekend in 45 degree rain while sleeping on the floor in an unheated dining hall was considered to suffice.  Point being, I "get it" that a lot of people have friends-for-life from fraternity and sorority days, I'm far from "anti-Frat". 

I'm also generally a supporter of "personal responsibility" and "personal choice".  I know kids these days binge drink like nobody's business, starting in high school.  Our kid would neither attend certain parties nor hold open parties at our house (even if alcohol isn't served, the kids bring in vodka or tequila in Dasani bottles).  So in general, if a kid goes to a party and gets puking toxic drunk, I do think it's on them.

 

The thing is, when you have a set-up where there's a desirable social prize (brotherhood in the fraternity) dangled in front of these kids, AND there's a set up as described in the article, I feel it's no longer a case of individual responsibility.  (In this incident, the frat transported freshmen on their "list" to their house, took their cell phones, divided them into 6 teams, and led them through 7 rooms where they were given 7 specific targets of massive alcohol consumption they must each complete to continue - including at the last room giving each of them a full bottle of vodka and saying they couldn't leave until it was empty.) The fraternity created a setup requiring that degree of alcohol consumption and recruited peer pressure and the desire for social achievement to support their requirement.

 

There seem to me to be too many of these instances involving fraternities where drinking to the point of alcohol toxicity has become ritualized to various extents, and made into a gauntlet prospective members must pass through. 

 

I may regret posting this (and if it turns ugly or gets politicized, I will delete it) but I'm curious what people think.  In the situation described, is the individual responsible, or does the group (fraternity) share responsibility?   Are fraternities something that has existed for 200 yrs with few problems, or have social problems become institutionalized and intrinsic in them?

[Sundancer]

9 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Are fraternities something that has existed for 200 yrs with few problems, or have social problems become institutionalized and intrinsic in them?

 

I applaud every school that prohibits them. They encourage groupthink bad behavior and clique-friend groups that are not necessary for quality social interaction. Schools that have banned Greek life suffer no ill effects. 

 

Fraternity parties create normalcy around orgies of bad behavior among people with limited brain development to govern themselves. The things that happened at fraternity parties in college had zero analog in parties not in fraternity houses. None, nada, nil. 

 

Ban them. Don't look back. The only people making money from them are some central Greek life hub. 

 

No objection to the service "fraternities," which are something wholly different. 

[Gugny]

I think it's shared responsibility.  The fraternity is absolutely (partially) at fault.  These "kids" know the dangers.  They know their "games" could be potentially deadly.

 

Frankly, if they don't, they have no business being in college.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

So this happened at the kids school last fall.  Parents of deceased filed lawsuit this week, so more details dropped.
https://www.pressconnects.com/story/news/local/watchdog/2020/01/29/lawsuit-alleges-cornell-frat-hazing-linked-antonio-tsialas-death/4409463002/
 

TL;DR: Last fall, the boy in question was invited and transported to "dirty rush" party where freshmen were encouraged/required to drink massive amounts of alcohol in a short period of time (via competitive games).  Greek rush is only allowed during winter at that school; inviting freshmen to parties where alcohol is served is against school rules; providing alcohol to minors is against NYS law.  This frat broke at least 2 school rules and violated NYS law.  No return transportation was arranged back to the freshman dorms.  The freshman at the party say most of them were blackout-drunk and vomiting after the games, and don't remember how they got home - alcohol consumption mandated by the games described was pushing death-by-acute-alcohol-toxicity levels.  The deceased was found dead in a gorge flanking the school 2 days later.  (there are some other troubling aspects to the situation such as the frat president trying to cover up the kid's presence at the party while the parents frantically searched for their missing kid, but I'll leave them aside to focus)

 

Not clear in article: The kid was found dead in a difficult-to-access area of a gorge that is considerably off his direct route home.  Word is he died of blunt force trauma, not drowning or alcohol (eg, he fell)  The area is a popular "I dare you" spot for thrill seeking kids; Cornell gated off the easiest access some years back, but kids who know how can still get there.   His friends say he didn't know how to get there, so the most likely explanation is a group of kids set out to go there after the party.   Climbing around a gorge is intrinsically risky; drunk, in the dark, obviously worse.  If he was with other people and known to fall, no one reported his fall to EMS; if he was driven to the start of the path and known to set out on it, no one reported that.

 

Lots of discussion in the Parents' Facebook group for the school, and the statement was made "Fraternities have been around for 200 years and caused very few problems in that time": the parent making that statement holds the kids personally responsible for drinking lethal quantities of alcohol and the deceased responsible for the decision to go lark about in a gorge while drunk, in the dark.

 

I am myself a Brother in a Service (formerly Scouting) fraternity.  I have lifelong friends all over the country from that.  Wouldn't change it for the world.  Back in da day, we were kinda towards the lightweight end on the drinking, and for hazing: pledges building tent platforms with us in New Hampshire for a long weekend in 45 degree rain while sleeping on the floor in an unheated dining hall.  Point being, I "get it" that a lot of people have friends-for-life from fraternity and sorority days, I'm far from "anti-Frat". 

I'm also generally a supporter of "personal responsibility" and "personal choice".  I know kids these days binge drink like nobody's business, starting in high school.  Our kid would neither attend certain parties nor hold open parties at our house (even if alcohol isn't served, the kids bring in vodka or tequila in Dasani bottles).  So in general, if a kid goes to a party and gets puking toxic drunk, I do think it's on them.

 

The thing is, when you have a set-up where there's a desirable social prize (brotherhood in the fraternity) dangled in front of these kids, AND there's a set up as described in the article, I feel it's no longer a case of individual responsibility.  (In this incident, the frat transported freshmen on their "list" to their house, took their cell phones, divided them into 6 teams, and led them through 7 rooms where they were given 7 specific targets of massive alcohol consumption they must each complete to continue - including at the last room giving each of them a full bottle of vodka and saying they couldn't leave until it was empty.) The fraternity created a setup requiring that degree of alcohol consumption and recruited peer pressure and the desire for social achievement to support their requirement.

 

There seem to me to be too many of these instances involving fraternities where drinking to the point of alcohol toxicity has become ritualized to various extents, and made into a gauntlet prospective members must pass through. 

 

I may regret posting this (and if it turns ugly or gets politicized, I will delete it) but I'm curious what people think.  In the situation described, is the individual responsible, or does the group (fraternity) share responsibility?   Are fraternities something that has existed for 200 yrs with few problems, or have social problems become institutionalized and intrinsic in them?

I declined to pledge a fraternity back in my college days, have friends who did and generally speaking they had a great experience participating. I’m not anti-fraternity, but if the organizations have any sense, they will evolve as there is a large target on their enterprise.

 

In this case, as reported here, I’d think it’s an issue of personal responsibility, youthful stupidity and very bad luck. It seems like a stretch to connect dots from a party to alcohol to hazing to falling off a cliff the kid had to travel to get to.  I’d think a Cornell student would know the relative danger of climbing a gorge in general, in October in particular, and at night most assuredly. 
 

On a related note, one of my friends has a direct tie to the horrific Penn State case where the student fell down the stairs.  The prosecution of that case has been, in part, a farce.  I’m not suggesting the fraternity members don’t share responsibility, that the case approximates this situation, but had I only read news reports on the prosecutions case couple with the tragedy of the case, I’d feel substantially different than I do.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I declined to pledge a fraternity back in my college days, have friends who did and generally speaking they had a great experience participating. I’m not anti-fraternity, but if the organizations have any sense, they will evolve as there is a large target on their enterprise.

 

In this case, as reported here, I’d think it’s an issue of personal responsibility, youthful stupidity and very bad luck. It seems like a stretch to connect dots from a party to alcohol to hazing to falling off a cliff the kid had to travel to get to.  I’d think a Cornell student would know the relative danger of climbing a gorge in general, in October in particular, and at night most assuredly. 
 

On a related note, one of my friends has a direct tie to the horrific Penn State case where the student fell down the stairs.  The prosecution of that case has been, in part, a farce.  I’m not suggesting the fraternity members don’t share responsibility, that the case approximates this situation, but had I only read news reports on the prosecutions case couple with the tragedy of the case, I’d feel substantially different than I do.  

 

One take on the situation is that a kid who was as inebriated as the other participants describe they all were after the 7 rooms/drinking games, could not have gotten to the place where he was found on his own.  He would have had to walk about a mile, then he would have had to know where the (unofficial) path was.  That's the dots connection: that he didn't get there on his own, he was taken there as a follow-on to the party.  In addition, there's the

 

If someone drove some kids to the gorge access and either hiked the path with him and witnessed his fall (then failed to seek help) OR dropped him off at the head of the path (as some kind of follow-on hazing ritual) but didn't keep track of whether/when he emerged - I think they're responsible or at least have some responsibility.  If a Cornell student doesn't understand the dangers of the gorges, it's not from want of Cornell telling them.  There's required gorge safety training.  But incredibly inebriated people legally can't give meaningful consent.

 

I know nothing about the Penn State case.  It just seems to me there are too many horrific alcohol related deaths connected to fraternity events.  "Where there's smoke, there may well be fire".  Another example:  https://gordie.studenthealth.virginia.edu/gordies-story

 

One thing that strikes me is that these kids who die are usually in the position of seeking brotherhood - once accepted, they will be lifelong brothers of the whole fraternity.  But in many of these situations, the brothers seem to exercise less concern and care than my kid and her friends have extended to random drunk students they don't know from Adam.  They have encountered students who were vomiting and passing out, and have called for help and stayed with these strangers holding their heads while they puke and talking to them until help arrived.  Cornell, like many schools these days, has an "amnesty" policy where if medical help is sought, no action will be taken against the person who needs the help OR the people who are with them.

[Lurker]

My fraternity days were terrific then--and terrifying now.  

 

Our house (if you can call it that--it was actually a dorm wing at RIT) had two--count em, two--bars.  A full-service one upstairs with a walk-in cooler and two taps serving 24/7 and a downstairs bar for people too lazy to walk upstairs.    Since drinking age was 18, there were plenty of hang overs and missed 8:00 am classes, to say the least.

 

And at the same time, the bonds of friendship formed in those years were the stongest I've ever had.   There was never pressure to do anything to anyone.  It was the living embodiment of the "Animal House" film, which is like a biopic of my life as an 18-20 year old.

 

And yet, the edge that we walked was so, so razor thin.   A good one-third of my brothers flunked out due to the partying--even as another third went on to have fantastic jobs and careers after graduation.     Several years after I left, the chapter was booted off campus for bad behavior.   They eventually served their time and were allowed to return--only to be booted off again and dissolved a few years after that.

 

I always wonder what the guys who dropped out are doing with their lives today.   And how any administration would allow the bar situation we had to go unchecked for so long.   But at the same time, I wonder if I would be the person I am if I hadn't lived it.   

 

I may not be a U.S. Senator, but I would not trade that experience for anything...

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

11 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

One take on the situation is that a kid who was as inebriated as the other participants describe they all were after the 7 rooms/drinking games, could not have gotten to the place where he was found on his own.  He would have had to walk about a mile, then he would have had to know where the (unofficial) path was.  That's the dots connection: that he didn't get there on his own, he was taken there as a follow-on to the party.  In addition, there's the

 

If someone drove some kids to the gorge access and either hiked the path with him and witnessed his fall (then failed to seek help) OR dropped him off at the head of the path (as some kind of follow-on hazing ritual) but didn't keep track of whether/when he emerged - I think they're responsible or at least have some responsibility.  If a Cornell student doesn't understand the dangers of the gorges, it's not from want of Cornell telling them.  There's required gorge safety training.  But incredibly inebriated people legally can't give meaningful consent.

 

I know nothing about the Penn State case.  It just seems to me there are too many horrific alcohol related deaths connected to fraternity events.  "Where there's smoke, there may well be fire".  Another example:  https://gordie.studenthealth.virginia.edu/gordies-story

 

One thing that strikes me is that these kids who die are usually in the position of seeking brotherhood - once accepted, they will be lifelong brothers of the whole fraternity.  But in many of these situations, the brothers seem to exercise less concern and care than my kid and her friends have extended to random drunk students they don't know from Adam.  They have encountered students who were vomiting and passing out, and have called for help and stayed with these strangers holding their heads while they puke and talking to them until help arrived.  Cornell, like many schools these days, has an "amnesty" policy where if medical help is sought, no action will be taken against the person who needs the help OR the people who are with them.

All true, but when I was in college, on many a drunken night, I’d chill out by climbing out on the 4th floor ratty fire escape some nights. Some nights I’d hop the foot or two between the fire escape and bank next door to sit on the top of the wall.   There was always a fine line between tragedy and living to fight another day.  In my case, I don’t reflect on the bar that served me the alcohol, the party I had attended, the buddy who bought the alcohol or the guy who owned the building.  One caveat on that—it’s virtually impossible to know how my parents would have reacted if I had fallen, or how I would have if one of my own children were the Cornell student. Sad all the way around. 
 

On the brotherhood issue, I agree, but some guys are just losers.  They can  be bullies, dbags, self-centered prix, thugs, criminals and sociopaths.  I always encouraged my children to be mindful and watch the alcohol intake. I have had moderate success at this point. One of my sons told me about a girl who was drawing lines on her arm for each shot of vodka she drank at a freshman party, he said at one point she had 11 marks and wasn’t done.  Figured maybe the 11 were consumed in under an hour.

21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

I know nothing about the Penn State case.  It just seems to me there are too many horrific alcohol related deaths connected to fraternity events.  "Where there's smoke, there may well be fire".  Another example:  https://gordie.studenthealth.virginia.edu/gordies-story

 

 

Btw, on the link provided:  that story, with accompanying video presentation, was required viewing at freshman orientation when my son started school.  The 11 shots of vodka girl saw that video no more than 60 days before the night I just described.  We watched it as parents in a group, the kids watched it in their group and discussion ensued.

 

I’ve never forgotten it.  

[RochesterRob]

  I'm a Cornell alum.  I've seen the frat system and student society system up close.  I put most of the blame on the frat but the prospects/pledges need to know when to walk away.  This is easier said than done as many recognize the benefits of belonging to a frat bring including lifetime connections.  I never joined a frat even though I got asked to pledge but still belonged to a "house" which carried the same benefits.  Lifetime connections bring tremendous advantages in terms of profession or career.  It is hard to ask some kid who came from an ordinary life to look away from opportunity.  Where the frats got off track in my mind is the notion to one up the people that hazed you.  Hazing used to involve having a blanket thrown over your head, tossed in a car trunk, driven an hour away from campus, and then left behind.  But at least they left you near a road sign telling readily where you were and made sure you had change so you could use a payphone if needed.  If you had asthma or some other medical concern they made sure you had your meds or devices to deal with it.  I am not saying that there were not a few sadistic cases but it did not seem that sadism was wide spread by any means.  Today it seems quite a few want to push you within inches or minutes of death.

[Gray Beard]

Have the number of hazing accidents increased in the last 10-20 years, or has national awareness of them increased?

 

How much responsibility should be shared by parents, high schools, college admission, or any other group that can provide warnings to kids who might consider pledging?  I believe parents should be aware of the dangers and take the lead on informing and educating their kids, but perhaps parents are naively ignorant of the dangers.  Perhaps parents naively think their kids are smarter than that. 

 

I also believe that the frat members know what happened (duh). A code of silence is protecting the people who organized the trip to the gorge.  I would shut down that frat in a heartbeat. 

 

Should there be be a requirement for video cameras and/or adult chaperones?  That would be too much of a hindrance to the level of hedonism and debauchery that would be considered “acceptable“.  

 

When my my son went to college and was on the football team, I warned him about the initiation he was likely to encounter.  I told him they are going to get you drunk (under age), bring you to strip joints, get you lap dances, and other stuff like that.  (A D3 school so I wouldn’t have expected anything too elaborate).   A few days later he called me and said I was just about 100% correct in my prediction

Edited February 2, 2020 by Gray Beard

[KD in CA]

28 minutes ago, Lurker said:

My fraternity days were terrific then--and terrifying now.  

 

 

This.  I lived in a 20+ bedroom frat house with 50 guys.  We were pretty chill by frat standards but still routinely had blowouts with hundreds of drunk, underaged kids.   Plenty of pledge heavy drinking, etc.  It was a lot of fun.

 

Even though I never recall anything close to what some of those tragic stories tell, it's really easy to see how things get taken to the next level when literally every person involved is young, drunk and stupid.   The universities closed their eyes to it for decades (I was under the impression that was largely in the past due to liability issues), so there needs to be some responsibility assigned to the grown ups.   Asking an 18 year old kid to overcome that much peer pressure and correctly diagnose when it's time to stop drinking (once he's already drunk), is just not realistic if you want to see a good outcome.

 

[RaoulDuke79]

I've always found the hazing thing to be ludicrous.  It's really not much different than a gang initiation in that you're forced to do ridiculous and sometimes harmful things just to be accepted. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by RaoulDuke79

[Boca BIlls]

I stay another case of ***** happens.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

I think it depends on the fraternity, frankly.  I’ve known ones with good reputations, and other that were notorious for dangerous practices.  Everyone knows which frats are the “bad ones.”

 

I also am a firm believer in personal responsibility.  These kids know what they’re getting into when they decide to pledge.  If you don’t want to be put in dangerous situations, either don’t participate or choose your fraternity wisely.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

I think it depends on the fraternity, frankly.  I’ve known ones with good reputations, and other that were notorious for dangerous practices.  Everyone knows which frats are the “bad ones.”

 

I also am a firm believer in personal responsibility.  These kids know what they’re getting into when they decide to pledge.  If you don’t want to be put in dangerous situations, either don’t participate or choose your fraternity wisely.

 

I’m not sure the kids know the extent of what they’re getting into.  My kid’s good friend pledged one of frats with a relatively “mild” reputation.  She says they are best friends and tell each other everything but that she was terrified for him when he was pledging from what she knew, but he still won’t tell her everything he had to do as a pledge.  Secrecy abounds.

 

Still, the point stands that these kids very likely knew they were going to a “dirty rush” event that explicitly violated a number of Interfraternity Council and college Greek Life rules, so there’s that.

[RochesterRob]

27 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

I think it depends on the fraternity, frankly.  I’ve known ones with good reputations, and other that were notorious for dangerous practices.  Everyone knows which frats are the “bad ones.”

 

I also am a firm believer in personal responsibility.  These kids know what they’re getting into when they decide to pledge.  If you don’t want to be put in dangerous situations, either don’t participate or choose your fraternity wisely.

  There are always a few bad ones on any large campus.  That aside drinking and partying don't automatically make it bad.  Freshmen need to get their priorities sorted out before they go off to college.  Some kids can drink and still function academically.  Other kids can't function with any distractions.  I knew when I went off to college that I needed to be around other students that gave priority to studying.  Yes, we might have a drink or two after classes but after mealtime which was usually 5PM it was off to our respective dorm room or the library until the work was done for the day.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, Boca BIlls said:

I stay another case of ***** happens.

 

You’re entitled to your take, but I’m curious about how you get there.  The frat was breaking the law.  They were breaking school rules.  They were breaking their own Intrafraternity Council rules.  They set up competitions to mandate rapid consumption of near-fatal quantities of alcohol.  

 

I can kind of go with the kids made a choice to go to the party, then to stay there once they learned what was involved.  But it seems to me there’s an element of playing Russian roulette and then saying “shooting happens” when someone gets killed.

[Johnny Hammersticks]

Similar things happen on college sports teams, yet they are not scrutinized nearly as much as fraternities.

 

I played college lacrosse, and all freshmen and transfers had to go through a pretty awful “initiation.”  It was a weekend of hell involving excessive drinking, humiliation, and physical abuse.  Several of us, for example, were duct taped to office chairs with a lacrosse helmet on and pushed down 2 flights of stairs.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, RochesterRob said:

  I'm a Cornell alum.  I've seen the frat system and student society system up close.  I put most of the blame on the frat but the prospects/pledges need to know when to walk away.  This is easier said than done as many recognize the benefits of belonging to a frat bring including lifetime connections.  I never joined a frat even though I got asked to pledge but still belonged to a "house" which carried the same benefits.  Lifetime connections bring tremendous advantages in terms of profession or career.  It is hard to ask some kid who came from an ordinary life to look away from opportunity.  Where the frats got off track in my mind is the notion to one up the people that hazed you.  Hazing used to involve having a blanket thrown over your head, tossed in a car trunk, driven an hour away from campus, and then left behind.  But at least they left you near a road sign telling readily where you were and made sure you had change so you could use a payphone if needed.  If you had asthma or some other medical concern they made sure you had your meds or devices to deal with it.  I am not saying that there were not a few sadistic cases but it did not seem that sadism was wide spread by any means.  Today it seems quite a few want to push you within inches or minutes of death.

 

Yeah, I’m with you.  I think it’s gone way too far.  Hazing that involves having the pledges clean the bathrooms after the parties or having the upperclassmen drive the blindfolded pledges to an “undisclosed location” where they’re kept awake all night then have to find their way home, maybe make the pledges drink a shot if they miss a question about the history of the fraternity (but stop before you get to lethal quantities).  

 

But there are too many stories where it’s gone way too far over the edge of “safe and sane”

 

5 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

Similar things happen on college sports teams, yet they are not scrutinized nearly as much as fraternities.

 

I played college lacrosse, and all freshmen and transfers had to go through a pretty awful “initiation.”  It was a weekend of hell involving excessive drinking, humiliation, and physical abuse.  Several of us, for example, were duct taped to office chairs with a lacrosse helmet on and pushed down 2 flights of stairs.  

 

They have been cracking down (see what I did there?) on this as well at Cornell.  The college Band was sanctioned for hazing!  

 

The two flights of stairs is bad, even with the helmet.

 

[Kevbeau]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

My fraternity days were terrific then--and terrifying now.  

 

Our house (if you can call it that--it was actually a dorm wing at RIT) had two--count em, two--bars.  A full-service one upstairs with a walk-in cooler and two taps serving 24/7 and a downstairs bar for people too lazy to walk upstairs.    Since drinking age was 18, there were plenty of hang overs and missed 8:00 am classes, to say the least.

 

And at the same time, the bonds of friendship formed in those years were the stongest I've ever had.   There was never pressure to do anything to anyone.  It was the living embodiment of the "Animal House" film, which is like a biopic of my life as an 18-20 year old.

 

And yet, the edge that we walked was so, so razor thin.   A good one-third of my brothers flunked out due to the partying--even as another third went on to have fantastic jobs and careers after graduation.     Several years after I left, the chapter was booted off campus for bad behavior.   They eventually served their time and were allowed to return--only to be booted off again and dissolved a few years after that.

 

I always wonder what the guys who dropped out are doing with their lives today.   And how any administration would allow the bar situation we had to go unchecked for so long.   But at the same time, I wonder if I would be the person I am if I hadn't lived it.   

 

I may not be a U.S. Senator, but I would not trade that experience for anything...

Same experience (@RIT)....different house I think

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, KD in CA said:

 

This.  I lived in a 20+ bedroom frat house with 50 guys.  We were pretty chill by frat standards but still routinely had blowouts with hundreds of drunk, underaged kids.   Plenty of pledge heavy drinking, etc.  It was a lot of fun.

 

Even though I never recall anything close to what some of those tragic stories tell, it's really easy to see how things get taken to the next level when literally every person involved is young, drunk and stupid.   The universities closed their eyes to it for decades (I was under the impression that was largely in the past due to liability issues), so there needs to be some responsibility assigned to the grown ups.   Asking an 18 year old kid to overcome that much peer pressure and correctly diagnose when it's time to stop drinking (once he's already drunk), is just not realistic if you want to see a good outcome.

 

 

KD, that’s the thing.  Cornell has an absolute prohibition on hazing - in general, not just for fraternities.  Sports teams, sports clubs, the Marching Band, and various frats have been disciplined in recent years.  Several frats and sororities have been recently suspended, some permanently.   Their fraternity houses are grad student housing or dorms now.   All this info is publicly available on their website.   Strict regulations were put in place where during their first fall, Greek houses have regulations about having parties at their houses.  Rush takes place in January and is closely supervised.

 

And then still there’s this.