Lamar Jackson scores 2 points in the Precision Passing Pro-Bowl Skills Competition.

[njbuff]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Mahomes would have been JA 2.0 if here with McD &Daboll....  They'd have no comprehension of who they had & may still have started Peterman ahead of him......?

That’s why I will NEVER bash McDermott for passing on Mahomes.

[apuszczalowski]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

Is this the same guy who is exactly .500 as NFL starting QB? 7th in careers yards is going to quickly fall to about 17th in about 10 years as the current group of QB's continues playing. Eli is one of the first QB's to benefit from the change to a passing league. That is why he is retiring 7th for now. But he will be passed up by a number of guys over the next 10 years or so.

 

Had at least one of Eli's two Super Bowl runs been  Joe Flacco like in terms of carrying his team i would put more weight in his HOF candidacy. As it is, his numbers were below average compared to his peers and he lost as many games as he won. How does that make a HOFer? I mean the postseason shouldn't be the end all be all when it comes to the HOF. And again, he didn't carry his team in any of those two postseason runs. 

So now wins matter for a QB? Thought that was a team stat?

[apuszczalowski]

16 minutes ago, njbuff said:

That’s why I will NEVER bash McDermott for passing on Mahomes.

So you wouldn't bash McDermott for not being able to recognize football ability of a QB and scheme for them?

[Teddy KGB]

18 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

NEWS FLASH:  Lamar Jackson jokes don't make Josh Allen better. 

 

 

NEWS FLASH : you are allowed to make posts that don’t disparage Allen 100% of the time.   

[njbuff]

Just now, apuszczalowski said:

So you wouldn't bash McDermott for not being able to recognize football ability of a QB and scheme for them?

 

See my posts about this subject.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

This shouldn't be a debate because the Bills were NOT taking a QB if they stayed at 10.  Chicago should, and does catch alot of hell for what they did in that draft because they missed Mahomes and Watson.

 

The Bills, hired Mc D on month before the draft and didn't fire Whaley until the draft was over.  Mc D KNEW going into the 2017 Draft he was NOT going to take a QB high, that he hadn't scouted, or had input from the new GM on.

 

It will never be looked at correctly, but what Mc D did, going into 2017 draft, with QB off the board, was a make an A+ rated trade under the circumstances. 

 

Considered within the context of the moment, Mc D, was able to trade back, get an all pro CB, and an extra 1st and 3rd which he and Bean then converted in some way shape or form into more impact players in 2018.  It was actually a hell of a successful deal for the Bills.

 

ONLY if the Bills were committed to drafting a QB in 2017, should this be looked on as a fail.  If anyhthing the Pegulas hiring schedule may have kept the Bills out of the QB market in 2017, but the fact remains...prior to the 2017 draft, Buffalo was not going to be drafting a QB.....once you've determined you aren't taking one, the Bills did absolutely the best they possibly could have.

 

It's a shame they get blasted by the lazy media as being "the team that passed Mahomes".  the Bills weren't that team.  That was  the Bears, Browns, Jets, Niners, Titans, Bengals.....in fact its incredible how little crap the Bengals, picking at 9, one pick in front of the Bills/KC at 10, get for taking John Ross instead of Mahomes.

 

History won't be kind to Buffalo for this because they happened to be the team that made the trade.

 

Wrong by reason of false premise.

 

The Bills hired McDermott in mid-January.........standard procedure.

 

They weren't taking a QB because they were trying to be clever by not announcing Beane so they could have access to Carolina's scouting info.......which naturally did not include much on QB's because the Panthers had a QB a year removed from being league MVP.   

 

It was an ill fated plan...........much like hiring Rick Dennison as OC and changing a successful offense and deciding that big, lumbering WR's were the wave of the future.

 

The Bills #1 need by a long shot was a QB..........MUCH moreso than Kansas City.......everyone knew it........they didn't even have otherwise specific crying needs going into that draft.

 

Bottom line is that it's standard procedure to hire a GM and HC in the same offseason and address QB in the draft right away........you don't punt on big decisions just because you only had 4 months to prepare.

 

McD and The Pegs thought they were being clever by doing it differently and they missed out on two franchise QB's as a result.

 

It's a reason......not a good excuse.........it was all about choices made and the fact that they were very unorthodox AND wrong makes them look exceptionally dumb.

[Zerovoltz]

12 minutes ago, njbuff said:

That’s why I will NEVER bash McDermott for passing on Mahomes.

 

.........if Josh Allen was destined to be who he is now because he has McDermott as coach and Bean as GM...and the OC, players, city, uniform and all that, then WHY bother to draft him?  I hate this argument.  You are suggesting that if JA was drafted by the Bears, he would suck, but if he were in KC, he'd be throwing 50 TD's and for 5000 yards because of coaching and the situation.

 

If that were the case, then Andy Reid did some of his WORST coaching between 2013 and 2017 because he sure as hell couldn't get Alex Smith to do it with the same system, with Kelce, with Hill....and Smith even had the benefit of Kareem Hunt leading the NFL in rushing and he STILL couldn't do it.   KC shouldn't have bothered to trade for Smith I guess....because Reid could have just kept rolling with Matt Cassel and schemed and coached that guy into 50 and 5000 I suppose.

 

Speaking of Cassel....he took over a Patriots team that was coming off a 16-0 regular season, that had Randy Moss and Gronk, and Wes Welker..all the same guys Brady had...and Cassel went 11-5 with that squad.  Moss's numbers were way down from the year before (but amazingly, Welker, the slant/possession guy had almost identical numbers!) ....Belichick must have had an off year coaching because clearly, the player and their talent and abilty don't matter....it's the organization.  That squad carried Cassel to 11 wins, not Cassel carrying them.

 

Mahomes would be great wherever he went.....

[LSHMEAB]

2 hours ago, Rico said:

Great article. I can’t imagine Big Ben ever playing shortstop though.

I'd say MAYBE third base, but man. Gonna make pitcher's VERY angry with those routine balls down the line turning into doubles.

[njbuff]

12 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

.........if Josh Allen was destined to be who he is now because he has McDermott as coach and Bean as GM...and the OC, players, city, uniform and all that, then WHY bother to draft him?  I hate this argument.  You are suggesting that if JA was drafted by the Bears, he would suck, but if he were in KC, he'd be throwing 50 TD's and for 5000 yards because of coaching and the situation.

 

If that were the case, then Andy Reid did some of his WORST coaching between 2013 and 2017 because he sure as hell couldn't get Alex Smith to do it with the same system, with Kelce, with Hill....and Smith even had the benefit of Kareem Hunt leading the NFL in rushing and he STILL couldn't do it.   KC shouldn't have bothered to trade for Smith I guess....because Reid could have just kept rolling with Matt Cassel and schemed and coached that guy into 50 and 5000 I suppose.

 

Speaking of Cassel....he took over a Patriots team that was coming off a 16-0 regular season, that had Randy Moss and Gronk, and Wes Welker..all the same guys Brady had...and Cassel went 11-5 with that squad.  Moss's numbers were way down from the year before (but amazingly, Welker, the slant/possession guy had almost identical numbers!) ....Belichick must have had an off year coaching because clearly, the player and their talent and abilty don't matter....it's the organization.  That squad carried Cassel to 11 wins, not Cassel carrying them.

 

Mahomes would be great wherever he went.....

 

Why do I have to beat a dead horse constantly?

 

In short, Mahomes and Reid are the perfect marriage, McDermott and Mahomes are not.

 

I don't care how good Mahomes is (I said in 2016 he was going to be a great pro), but if he came to Buffalo when they had NOTHING in 2017 (the entire offensive roster has been gutted since then)......................

 

he would have been up against it with ZERO to work with here. Even though I think he would be great, he can't/couldn't carry a talentless Bills offense by himself.

 

Mahomes got hurt behind a quality KC line............. what would have happened in Buffalo?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

56 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And why is he so good?????  Because a well thought out  offensive scheme has receivers running open & often easy passes to uncovered players as they focus on Lamar.  Yep he made some tough passes, but also the right one's into very loose coverage.

 

Oh, without a doubt, the offensive scheme plays a huge role in the degree of his success, but it still doesn't work without Lamar's ability to execute it. 

I'm simply responding to folks bashing Lamar or claiming he can't pass.  He can. 

 

He's a young QB.  He's got some gaps in his game that he filled last off season, and some others that still need work.    Now there are people who believe that a QB can't improve, or can't improve past his 2nd year or whatever, that's their viewpoint.  I happen to believe that he can and he will.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

32 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

.........if Josh Allen was destined to be who he is now because he has McDermott as coach and Bean as GM...and the OC, players, city, uniform and all that, then WHY bother to draft him?  I hate this argument.  You are suggesting that if JA was drafted by the Bears, he would suck, but if he were in KC, he'd be throwing 50 TD's and for 5000 yards because of coaching and the situation.

 

If that were the case, then Andy Reid did some of his WORST coaching between 2013 and 2017 because he sure as hell couldn't get Alex Smith to do it with the same system, with Kelce, with Hill....and Smith even had the benefit of Kareem Hunt leading the NFL in rushing and he STILL couldn't do it.   KC shouldn't have bothered to trade for Smith I guess....because Reid could have just kept rolling with Matt Cassel and schemed and coached that guy into 50 and 5000 I suppose.

 

Speaking of Cassel....he took over a Patriots team that was coming off a 16-0 regular season, that had Randy Moss and Gronk, and Wes Welker..all the same guys Brady had...and Cassel went 11-5 with that squad.  Moss's numbers were way down from the year before (but amazingly, Welker, the slant/possession guy had almost identical numbers!) ....Belichick must have had an off year coaching because clearly, the player and their talent and abilty don't matter....it's the organization.  That squad carried Cassel to 11 wins, not Cassel carrying them.

 

Mahomes would be great wherever he went.....

 

I Can't Even. 

 

It seems pretty evident that a lot of factors go into a team's offensive performance, including the design of the offense, the appropriateness of the gameplan and playcalling for each opponent, the quality of the OL, the quality of the skill players, and the quality of the QB.

 

Alex Smith had a career year in 2017 with Kelce and with Hill and it wasn't close.  He was given more offensive talent, and he exploited it to the degree that his own talent as a QB allowed him to.  Mahomes is a higher quality QB who was able to take a quality scheme with talented players and elevate them to a next level.   Would Mahomes talent still be evident if he were, say, dropped into the Bengals offense or the Miami Dolphins offense?  Undoubtedly, but do you really believe he'd be putting up "great" MVP record setting numbers?   I think it's pretty clear that the answer would be "no".   Even proven, HOF quality QBs like Brees and Rodgers have "off" seasons where they're not able to execute as well when the talent around them is depleted.

 

I really hate these reductio ad absurdum type screeds.  Do you honestly think anyone believes that offensive scheme and coaching are all that matters?  Is pointing out that they DO matter in any way shape or form the same thing as making that claim?  Do you really want to try to argue that the quality of the rest of the talent on offense doesn't matter?

 

 

 

 

[Zerovoltz]

14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I Can't Even. 

 

It seems pretty evident that a lot of factors go into a team's offensive performance, including the design of the offense, the appropriateness of the gameplan and playcalling for each opponent, the quality of the OL, the quality of the skill players, and the quality of the QB.

 

Alex Smith had a career year in 2017 with Kelce and with Hill and it wasn't close.  He was given more offensive talent, and he exploited it to the degree that his own talent as a QB allowed him to.  Mahomes is a higher quality QB who was able to take a quality scheme with talented players and elevate them to a next level.   Would Mahomes talent still be evident if he were, say, dropped into the Bengals offense or the Miami Dolphins offense?  Undoubtedly, but do you really believe he'd be putting up "great" MVP record setting numbers?   I think it's pretty clear that the answer would be "no".   Even proven, HOF quality QBs like Brees and Rodgers have "off" seasons where they're not able to execute as well when the talent around them is depleted.

 

I really hate these reductio ad absurdum type screeds.  Do you honestly think anyone believes that offensive scheme and coaching are all that matters?  Is pointing out that they DO matter in any way shape or form the same thing as making that claim?  Do you really want to try to argue that the quality of the rest of the talent on offense doesn't matter?

 

 

 

 

 

Hapless, I agree with you....I could have been better about making my point....wich isn't to say situation and roster don't matter....they DO.  Quite a bit.  The idea Mahomes would be JA 2.0 is absurd.  Even if you think the air raid is garbage, Mahomes took a TON of snaps in college and completed 63% or better of his passes, and didn't have very many INTS at all, especially considering the number of attempts he had.....Of course Mahomes landed in the absolute best spot with a ready made roster around him.  I'm not denying that.  What bothers me is that people (not just bills fans....Bears fans do this all the time)  ....saying....oh well.....it doesn't matter....Mahomes would suck if he were on X team.  I don't believe that at all.  At some point you have to believe talented players can make a difference, even if the coach isn't that great etc (look at Desean Watson...he overcomes a bad coach)

 

I'm not saying at all, that Mahomes would have ever been 50/5000 in Buffalo in 2018, but he'd have made the guys you did have look better...the line would look better...and the offense would have been better.  he's that kind of guy that lifts the whole team up.  On a great team....he sets records and goes to (one so far) super bowls.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

Hapless, I agree with you....I could have been better about making my point....wich isn't to say situation and roster don't matter....they DO.  Quite a bit.  The idea Mahomes would be JA 2.0 is absurd.  Even if you think the air raid is garbage, Mahomes took a TON of snaps in college and completed 63% or better of his passes, and didn't have very many INTS at all, especially considering the number of attempts he had.....Of course Mahomes landed in the absolute best spot with a ready made roster around him.  I'm not denying that.  What bothers me is that people (not just bills fans....Bears fans do this all the time)  ....saying....oh well.....it doesn't matter....Mahomes would suck if he were on X team.  I don't believe that at all.  At some point you have to believe talented players can make a difference, even if the coach isn't that great etc (look at Desean Watson...he overcomes a bad coach)

 

I'm not saying at all, that Mahomes would have ever been 50/5000 in Buffalo in 2018, but he'd have made the guys you did have look better...the line would look better...and the offense would have been better.  he's that kind of guy that lifts the whole team up.  On a great team....he sets records and goes to (one so far) super bowls.

 

 

Not much I can disagree with here.  Allen was far more raw and less experienced as a draft choice than Mahomes (IMO)**.  No, Mahomes would not have been Josh Allen in Buffalo...but he wouldn't have had anything close to the league-leading record-setting MVP season he had in his 2nd year (1st year starting) either.

 

So I hear you 4x4 on on the "Mahomes would suck if he were on X team".  My gripe is when saying (rationally I think) "he wouldn't have been nearly as good or develop nearly as quickly on X team" is taken to be the same as bashing or saying he would suck.  Bashing, IMO, is what some people have been doing of Lamar Jackson in this thread - saying he can't pass, he's dumber than a box of rocks etc etc - so ignorant.   To me, saying that Mahomes talent added to an offense that was #6 in the league the year before due to talent, coaching, O-line etc would not be the same result as Mahomes talent added to an offense that was bottom-third in the league the year before, lost two of its 3 best OLmen, failed to upgrade at WR and TE, and changed OCs is NOT bashing, it's realism.  I have no doubt that Mahomes would have had a better true rookie year than Allen did in 2018 in Buffalo and his talent would be clear, but the results would be no where near league MVP IMO.

 

I'm not sure I would call Bill O'Brien a "bad coach", but that's another story.  I will acknowledge him as a bit of a "mixed bag", but then I'd say that about Reid as well.....

 

I do covet DeAndre Hopkins, though.

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

16 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

Why do I have to beat a dead horse constantly?

 

In short, Mahomes and Reid are the perfect marriage, McDermott and Mahomes are not.

 

I don't care how good Mahomes is (I said in 2016 he was going to be a great pro), but if he came to Buffalo when they had NOTHING in 2017 (the entire offensive roster has been gutted since then)......................

 

he would have been up against it with ZERO to work with here. Even though I think he would be great, he can't/couldn't carry a talentless Bills offense by himself.

 

Mahomes got hurt behind a quality KC line............. what would have happened in Buffalo?

Yep would have had Mahomes to Watkins in 2017.  McD would have turned a transcendent QB & made him a mediocre/above average QB & game manager.....  17 points & time to shut it down.....?

16 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, without a doubt, the offensive scheme plays a huge role in the degree of his success, but it still doesn't work without Lamar's ability to execute it. 

I'm simply responding to folks bashing Lamar or claiming he can't pass.  He can. 

 

He's a young QB.  He's got some gaps in his game that he filled last off season, and some others that still need work.    Now there are people who believe that a QB can't improve, or can't improve past his 2nd year or whatever, that's their viewpoint.  I happen to believe that he can and he will.

And we'll wait and see.  As said he created such havoc in the backfield and than there are open receivers.  

 

You would think Daboll could do that with Allen..

Edited January 27, 2020 by Billsfan1972

[Zerovoltz]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not much I can disagree with here.  Allen was far more raw and less experienced as a draft choice than Mahomes (IMO)**.  No, Mahomes would not have been Josh Allen in Buffalo...but he wouldn't have had anything close to the league-leading record-setting MVP season he had in his 2nd year (1st year starting) either.

 

So I hear you 4x4 on on the "Mahomes would suck if he were on X team".  My gripe is when saying (rationally I think) "he wouldn't have been nearly as good or develop nearly as quickly on X team" is taken to be the same as bashing or saying he would suck.  Bashing, IMO, is what some people have been doing of Lamar Jackson in this thread - saying he can't pass, he's dumber than a box of rocks etc etc - so ignorant.   To me, saying that Mahomes talent added to an offense that was #6 in the league the year before due to talent, coaching, O-line etc would not be the same result as Mahomes talent added to an offense that was bottom-third in the league the year before, lost two of its 3 best OLmen, failed to upgrade at WR and TE, and changed OCs.  I have no doubt that Mahomes would have had a better true rookie year than Allen did in 2018 in Buffalo and his talent would be clear, but the results would be no where near league MVP IMO.

 

I'm not sure I would call Bill O'Brien a "bad coach", but that's another story.  I will acknowledge him as a bit of a "mixed bag", but then I'd say that about Reid as well.....

 

I do covet DeAndre Hopkins, though.

 

 

 

I think we are pretty much on the same page here.  I didn't present my point well. 

 

As far as Lamar....I remember pre draft, you were really doing your homework on the guy and posted quite a bit that you were in on him.  Credit to you.  I didn't think he'd be a success.  I would NOT say he sucks at all.  He led the leauge in Passing TD's, ran for more yards than a QB ever has...he's electric and he executed the offense they have in Baltimore about as well as it could executed.  That is not a player who SUCKS. 

 

Bill Obrien.......no need to have that debate, but since I brought it up....O brien should get credit for getting some really bad QB's to the playoffs and winning some divisions with less than average QB's.  They did it.  He led them to it.  His ideas and system were suited to make that happen.  Where I think he's bad is that he seems unwavering in his ideas about his system/what a QB should be.  I think theres more juice he could be getting out of that offense if he would adapt, and in the end that teams ceiling is capped at wild card round playoff team because of it. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'd call it conservative........go back and watch his highlights from 2018 when he put up 50 TD passes..........very little classic west coast drop back where the ball comes out on time and lots of egregiously poor mechanics like crossed feet on drops.    Obviously an incredible amount of his plays come outside of the pocket and bootlegs are part of the traditional WCO but the way operates outside of the pocket his feet and shoulders can be anywhere at release..........which definitely isn't the way Joe Montana did it.

 

@dave mcbride linked a story above about the connection between QB's and shortstop play.....................it might be time to accept the fact that there are going to be players out there for whom classic mechanics aren't necessary...........in the same way that we have come to accept that there are players like Steph Curry and James Harden who defied convention as shooters in basketball and now we aren't even surprised to see players who excel despite what are perceived as traditionally unsound technique.

 

I completely accept that Mahomes has an unreal ability to make accurate off platform throws and I'd seen that article connecting SS play and QB play before.

 

I just don't agree that it's over 75% of his throws, and the highlight film kind of doesn't address that.  Even Mahomes doesn't throw 75% highlights.  And at the risk of being accused of "bashing" Mahomes, sometimes when he does make those off-platform throws or throws with bad footwork, the results aren't so accurate.    Mahomes is ungodly talented, no doubt, but he is also blessed right now with skill players who can adjust on the ball.  And he has made real strides with improving his footwork and making it more consistent.

[artmalibu]

Jackson out performed by two non-QBs in a throwing accuracy competition... ?

[Phil The Thrill]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:08 AM, ChevyVanMiller said:

Man, that's brutal. It will be interesting to see next year when teams follow the Buffalo/Tennessee model and stack the box and make him try to beat you with throws outside. 

I wouldn’t put much stock into this competition.  How many QB’s could make every throw but take a dump when it comes to a game situation?  Lamar’s kind of the opposite of that.

 

I do agree that he is limited to throwing outside of the  numbers 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Yep would have had Mahomes to Watkins in 2017.  McD would have turned a transcendent QB & made him a mediocre/above average QB & game manager.....  17 points & time to shut it down.....?

 

 

In 2017, we actually had a reasonable OL and a good run game.  As you mention, if we'd have hung on to Watkins instead of trading him away in early August and inadequately trying to replace him with Kelvin Benjamin at the end of October so that Mahomes actually had someone to throw to, he might have been able to do something on the Bills.

 

2018, Not So Much.

[formerlyofCtown]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:08 AM, ChevyVanMiller said:

Man, that's brutal. It will be interesting to see next year when teams follow the Buffalo/Tennessee model and stack the box and make him try to beat you with throws outside. 

Apparently his speed and elusiveness did not intimidating the wooden board.

11 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

Hapless, I agree with you....I could have been better about making my point....wich isn't to say situation and roster don't matter....they DO.  Quite a bit.  The idea Mahomes would be JA 2.0 is absurd.  Even if you think the air raid is garbage, Mahomes took a TON of snaps in college and completed 63% or better of his passes, and didn't have very many INTS at all, especially considering the number of attempts he had.....Of course Mahomes landed in the absolute best spot with a ready made roster around him.  I'm not denying that.  What bothers me is that people (not just bills fans....Bears fans do this all the time)  ....saying....oh well.....it doesn't matter....Mahomes would suck if he were on X team.  I don't believe that at all.  At some point you have to believe talented players can make a difference, even if the coach isn't that great etc (look at Desean Watson...he overcomes a bad coach)

 

I'm not saying at all, that Mahomes would have ever been 50/5000 in Buffalo in 2018, but he'd have made the guys you did have look better...the line would look better...and the offense would have been better.  he's that kind of guy that lifts the whole team up.  On a great team....he sets records and goes to (one so far) super bowls.

 

I believe Mahomes would elevate the play around him.  That’s what that it factor people talk about is.  Josh is not as polished of a passer as Mahomes but he definitely has that it factor as well.  I’m really excited for the next 10 or more seasons of watching these QBs.