Lamar Jackson scores 2 points in the Precision Passing Pro-Bowl Skills Competition.

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

The sad thing about Watson is, that if he were the one actually running the Baltimore attack, that would be dangerous, and truly a legit threat because unlike Lamar, Watson is a good passer.  I think some of the know on Watson coming out of Clemson was that he'd have some turnover issues, and wasn't the fastest study or all that good or quick at going through progressions.  I think some of that has shown up in the pros, but he's way better than I, or many thought, and he is being wasted by Bill Obrien, insisting that he be a classic pocket passing type.  ......wich he is good at, but why force a guy to be one dimensional, when he has 2 dimensions? 

 

Think of Allen in a scheme where they only let him be a drop back passer, and forbid the guy to run......that's what they do to Watson in Houston.

 

The other thing O'Brien did last offseason was let Sean Ryan who was Watson's QB coach his first two years (and with whom he had an excellent relationship) walk. 

[Billsfan1972]

12 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

Not a big deal.

 

But, unfortunately, this Mahomes/Bills debate will NEVER die until Allen and McDermott win a SB.

Mahomes would have been JA 2.0 if here with McD &Daboll....  They'd have no comprehension of who they had & may still have started Peterman ahead of him......?

[Don Otreply]

What were everyone else’s scores?

[Zerovoltz]

40 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Mahomes would have been JA 2.0 if here with McD &Daboll....  They'd have no comprehension of who they had & may still have started Peterman ahead of him......?

 

This shouldn't be a debate because the Bills were NOT taking a QB if they stayed at 10.  Chicago should, and does catch alot of hell for what they did in that draft because they missed Mahomes and Watson.

 

The Bills, hired Mc D on month before the draft and didn't fire Whaley until the draft was over.  Mc D KNEW going into the 2017 Draft he was NOT going to take a QB high, that he hadn't scouted, or had input from the new GM on.

 

It will never be looked at correctly, but what Mc D did, going into 2017 draft, with QB off the board, was a make an A+ rated trade under the circumstances. 

 

Considered within the context of the moment, Mc D, was able to trade back, get an all pro CB, and an extra 1st and 3rd which he and Bean then converted in some way shape or form into more impact players in 2018.  It was actually a hell of a successful deal for the Bills.

 

ONLY if the Bills were committed to drafting a QB in 2017, should this be looked on as a fail.  If anyhthing the Pegulas hiring schedule may have kept the Bills out of the QB market in 2017, but the fact remains...prior to the 2017 draft, Buffalo was not going to be drafting a QB.....once you've determined you aren't taking one, the Bills did absolutely the best they possibly could have.

 

It's a shame they get blasted by the lazy media as being "the team that passed Mahomes".  the Bills weren't that team.  That was  the Bears, Browns, Jets, Niners, Titans, Bengals.....in fact its incredible how little crap the Bengals, picking at 9, one pick in front of the Bills/KC at 10, get for taking John Ross instead of Mahomes.

 

History won't be kind to Buffalo for this because they happened to be the team that made the trade.

[Dopey]

13 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but I remember arguing with jrober on BBMB on how good Mahomes was going to be, all the while he told me Air Raid QB's suck and Mahomes is just another Big 12 OB who is going to be a bust.

 

I wanted the Bills to take Mahomes at 10 and everybody on BBMB was bashing me.

 

But I do think the Bills made the right decision not going after Mahomes because the Bills entire offense needed to be replaced at the time and a QB in 2017 wasn't the right move with the "supposed" supreme QB class of 2018 coming up.

 

Point is, I always thought Mahomes was going to be a great QB while every else is a Johnny Come Lately and are killing the Bills for not taking Mahomes........ looking at from 20/20 hindsight.

 

Ok, we move on  now. ?

Good for you?

[dave mcbride]

19 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I remember you being really down on his footwork..............but I'd say about 3/4 of his throws are either off platform entirely or done with technically incorrect footwork/mechanics.  

 

He's a shortstop playing QB.    

 

I know baseball isn't really a thing in the UK but Mahomes is a great shortstop playing QB...........Josh Allen is a pitcher/right fielder playing QB.......Allen really needs his mechanics tight to create accuracy,  Mahomes does not.

 

  

 

16 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I never said he would need technically correct mechanics. But his mechanics weren't just off his footwork was off in different ways every throw. What KC have done with him is exactly what I said I thought he needed to be successful - sit him at first and focus not on making his footwork technically perfect.... just repeatable. That is what they have done. That isn't to say either that Mahomes would have been a bust elsewhere or that the Bills couldn't have done the same things. 

 

And yes baseball references are lost on me. I tried watching some of the game at the Olympic Park last year. Good God that is dull. 

You really should read this, GB, if you haven’t already: https://torontosun.com/sports/football/nfl/kryk-most-top-nfl-qbs-played-shortstop-growing-up

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 hours ago, Gugny said:

Yes, we will have to wait and see.  But history says that QBs who rely heavily on the run AND can't pass the ball end up having careers full of really fun highlight reels but very little playoff success.

 

Soooooo on that "can't pass the ball" thing, we do realize that Jackson had ~ the same passing yardage as Allen (38 yds more) on like, 60 fewer attempts (because higher completion percentage, more deep throws)? He led the league in passing TDs.

 

If Lamar Jackson is a QB who "can't pass the ball", we're kind of in deep kim-chee with our boi.

 

Quote

I'm sure Harbaugh will field a strong team.  I'm just curious to see if he'll actually try to develop Jackson as a passer (at least more of a passer than he was this season) or if he'll continue to let him run wild.  If passing over the middle to TEs is all he's able to do for another year, opposing defenses will eat him alive.

 

I'm voting "both".  They'll continue to use the same offense in which Jackson "ran wild" because it does take an exceptionally good D to stifle it.  But they'll have Jackson working overtime this off-season to be able to hit those outside throws he missed on, because (just as with Allen and his lack of a deep ball especially over the middle), it's a weakness that good teams can and will exploit. 

 

This is NOT the Nextgen passer rating chart of a guy who is limited to "passing over the middle to TEs", btw.

 

 

14 hours ago, njbuff said:

Not to beat a dead horse, but I remember arguing with jrober on BBMB on how good Mahomes was going to be, all the while he told me Air Raid QB's suck and Mahomes is just another Big 12 OB who is going to be a bust.

 

Oh, My!  Priceless!

[Rico]

12 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

 

You really should read this, GB, if you haven’t already: https://torontosun.com/sports/football/nfl/kryk-most-top-nfl-qbs-played-shortstop-growing-up

Great article. I can’t imagine Big Ben ever playing shortstop though.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I remember you being really down on his footwork..............but I'd say about 3/4 of his throws are either off platform entirely or done with technically incorrect footwork/mechanics.  

 

I'd say that this bins as one of the 90% of statistics that are made-up

 

Does Mahomes make off platform throws or throws with technically incorrect footwork/mechanics?  Yes.

75% of his throws?  Pfffffft.

 

 

[Gugny]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Soooooo on that "can't pass the ball" thing, we do realize that Jackson had ~ the same passing yardage as Allen (38 yds more) on like, 60 fewer attempts (because higher completion percentage, more deep throws)? He led the league in passing TDs.

 

If Lamar Jackson is a QB who "can't pass the ball", we're kind of in deep kim-chee with our boi.

 

 

I'm voting "both".  They'll continue to use the same offense in which Jackson "ran wild" because it does take an exceptionally good D to stifle it.  But they'll have Jackson working overtime this off-season to be able to hit those outside throws he missed on, because (just as with Allen and his lack of a deep ball especially over the middle), it's a weakness that good teams can and will exploit. 

 

This is NOT the Nextgen passer rating chart of a guy who is limited to "passing over the middle to TEs", btw.

 

 

 

Oh, My!  Priceless!

 

Bob Griffin had a similar season.  I'm not here to compare Jackson to Allen (although, Allen will end up being the more successful starter).  Jackson had a great season.  Undisputed MVP, as far as I'm concerned.  It's just my opinion that it's not sustainable.

 

Those charts look great, as do the stats.  But my eyes tell me he can't pass well outside of his comfort zone (TEs over the middle, short range).  And two years in a row now, the Ravens have met better teams/better COACHED teams and gotten their asses handed to them.  

 

We'll see if that begins happening sooner (regular season).  My guess is yes.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

On 1/24/2020 at 9:39 AM, apuszczalowski said:

So what was Allen's score in this event?

 

 

It's also one that thinks a 2 time SB winner & MVP who sits at 7th in career yards doesn't deserve to be in the HOF.......

 

Is this the same guy who is exactly .500 as NFL starting QB? 7th in careers yards is going to quickly fall to about 17th in about 10 years as the current group of QB's continues playing. Eli is one of the first QB's to benefit from the change to a passing league. That is why he is retiring 7th for now. But he will be passed up by a number of guys over the next 10 years or so.

 

Had at least one of Eli's two Super Bowl runs been  Joe Flacco like in terms of carrying his team i would put more weight in his HOF candidacy. As it is, his numbers were below average compared to his peers and he lost as many games as he won. How does that make a HOFer? I mean the postseason shouldn't be the end all be all when it comes to the HOF. And again, he didn't carry his team in any of those two postseason runs. 

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

This shouldn't be a debate because the Bills were NOT taking a QB if they stayed at 10.  Chicago should, and does catch alot of hell for what they did in that draft because they missed Mahomes and Watson.

 

The Bills, hired Mc D on month before the draft and didn't fire Whaley until the draft was over.  Mc D KNEW going into the 2017 Draft he was NOT going to take a QB high, that he hadn't scouted, or had input from the new GM on.

 

It will never be looked at correctly, but what Mc D did, going into 2017 draft, with QB off the board, was a make an A+ rated trade under the circumstances. 

 

Considered within the context of the moment, Mc D, was able to trade back, get an all pro CB, and an extra 1st and 3rd which he and Bean then converted in some way shape or form into more impact players in 2018.  It was actually a hell of a successful deal for the Bills.

 

ONLY if the Bills were committed to drafting a QB in 2017, should this be looked on as a fail.  If anyhthing the Pegulas hiring schedule may have kept the Bills out of the QB market in 2017, but the fact remains...prior to the 2017 draft, Buffalo was not going to be drafting a QB.....once you've determined you aren't taking one, the Bills did absolutely the best they possibly could have.

 

It's a shame they get blasted by the lazy media as being "the team that passed Mahomes".  the Bills weren't that team.  That was  the Bears, Browns, Jets, Niners, Titans, Bengals.....in fact its incredible how little crap the Bengals, picking at 9, one pick in front of the Bills/KC at 10, get for taking John Ross instead of Mahomes.

 

History won't be kind to Buffalo for this because they happened to be the team that made the trade.

I was making an observation & knew McD & Beane weren't there, but promise you if they were, would not have taken Mahomes or even considered him in 2017.  They would have if they did draft him screw him up terribly & had no idea what to do.

 

KC was incredibly smart in drafting him & knowing Alex Smith was not the long-term solution there.

[Putin]

8 hours ago, njbuff said:

 

So, you are saying you expect the Bills to win the SB next year?

 

?

Yes that’s what I’m saying sir 

[BUFFALOKIE]

1 hour ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

This shouldn't be a debate because the Bills were NOT taking a QB if they stayed at 10.  Chicago should, and does catch alot of hell for what they did in that draft because they missed Mahomes and Watson.

 

The Bills, hired Mc D on month before the draft and didn't fire Whaley until the draft was over.  Mc D KNEW going into the 2017 Draft he was NOT going to take a QB high, that he hadn't scouted, or had input from the new GM on.

 

It will never be looked at correctly, but what Mc D did, going into 2017 draft, with QB off the board, was a make an A+ rated trade under the circumstances. 

 

Considered within the context of the moment, Mc D, was able to trade back, get an all pro CB, and an extra 1st and 3rd which he and Bean then converted in some way shape or form into more impact players in 2018.  It was actually a hell of a successful deal for the Bills.

 

ONLY if the Bills were committed to drafting a QB in 2017, should this be looked on as a fail.  If anyhthing the Pegulas hiring schedule may have kept the Bills out of the QB market in 2017, but the fact remains...prior to the 2017 draft, Buffalo was not going to be drafting a QB.....once you've determined you aren't taking one, the Bills did absolutely the best they possibly could have.

 

It's a shame they get blasted by the lazy media as being "the team that passed Mahomes".  the Bills weren't that team.  That was  the Bears, Browns, Jets, Niners, Titans, Bengals.....in fact its incredible how little crap the Bengals, picking at 9, one pick in front of the Bills/KC at 10, get for taking John Ross instead of Mahomes.

 

History won't be kind to Buffalo for this because they happened to be the team that made the trade.

I really enjoy thoughtful and informed posts like this from fans of other teams. Thanks, Zero. Keep on keeping on, and if you want any help upping your voltage, I may be able to help. Good luck in the big game, bro.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, BUFFALOKIE said:

I really enjoy thoughtful and informed posts like this from fans of other teams. Thanks, Zero. Keep on keeping on, and if you want any help upping your voltage, I may be able to help. Good luck in the big game, bro.

 

Me too. Zero is a good poster. He has taken some unfair flack here over the past year in my opinion. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Rico said:

Great article. I can’t imagine Big Ben ever playing shortstop though.

 

Haha yeah, some of the "didn't play shortstop" on that consensus list of greats are notable - Tom Brady, John Elway, Steve Young.  Other "didn't play shortstop" greats called out in the article included Terry Bradshaw (hated baseball) and Jim Kelly.

 

Current QBs who didn't play shortstop include Carson Wentz, Jimmy Garappolo, Kirk Cousins, and Baker Mayfield as well as Josh Allen.

 

And yeah, I have trouble picturing Big Ben as a shortstop.  Or Matt Stafford as a shortstop, for that matter.

 

[Teddy KGB]

This is on in the background at the restaurant I’m at.   
 

Woof to Jackson’s accuracy.     Russell Wilson outscores him in 3 seconds.   
 

 

 

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Soooooo on that "can't pass the ball" thing, we do realize that Jackson had ~ the same passing yardage as Allen (38 yds more) on like, 60 fewer attempts (because higher completion percentage, more deep throws)? He led the league in passing TDs.

 

If Lamar Jackson is a QB who "can't pass the ball", we're kind of in deep kim-chee with our boi.

 

 

I'm voting "both".  They'll continue to use the same offense in which Jackson "ran wild" because it does take an exceptionally good D to stifle it.  But they'll have Jackson working overtime this off-season to be able to hit those outside throws he missed on, because (just as with Allen and his lack of a deep ball especially over the middle), it's a weakness that good teams can and will exploit. 

 

This is NOT the Nextgen passer rating chart of a guy who is limited to "passing over the middle to TEs", btw.

 

 

 

Oh, My!  Priceless!

And why is he so good?????  Because a well thought out  offensive scheme has receivers running open & often easy passes to uncovered players as they focus on Lamar.  Yep he made some tough passes, but also the right one's into very loose coverage.

[Nextmanup]

NEWS FLASH:  Lamar Jackson jokes don't make Josh Allen better. 

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd say that this bins as one of the 90% of statistics that are made-up

 

Does Mahomes make off platform throws or throws with technically incorrect footwork/mechanics?  Yes.

75% of his throws?  Pfffffft.

 

 

 

 

I'd call it conservative........go back and watch his highlights from 2018 when he put up 50 TD passes..........very little classic west coast drop back where the ball comes out on time and lots of egregiously poor mechanics like crossed feet on drops.    Obviously an incredible amount of his plays come outside of the pocket and bootlegs are part of the traditional WCO but the way operates outside of the pocket his feet and shoulders can be anywhere at release..........which definitely isn't the way Joe Montana did it.

 

@dave mcbride linked a story above about the connection between QB's and shortstop play.....................it might be time to accept the fact that there are going to be players out there for whom classic mechanics aren't necessary...........in the same way that we have come to accept that there are players like Steph Curry and James Harden who defied convention as shooters in basketball and now we aren't even surprised to see players who excel despite what are perceived as traditionally unsound technique.