B-Man Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 18 minutes ago, Magox said: Research shows that New York seeded wave of outbreaks throughout the country History is not going to look kind on New York. I don't want to make this a partisan argument but on the substance, the worst governmental decision making in the entire country came from New York. I don't see how anyone could logically dispute that. Shouldn't this be in the Cuomo in 2024? thread ? Just kidding. 2
Magox Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 6 minutes ago, Kemp said: You are right about social distancing not being put into place soon enough, but this would also mean that it should be mandatory now everywhere in America. Trump supporters are flouting this now throughout the country, with Trump cheering them on, and this after we have learned it works. Truth be told, I don't hold this criticism against them too much. Yes, De Blasio, their health department commissioner and Cuomo all downplayed it similar to Trump. And if we are going to be honest, then you can see that many politicians from the left and right, including the media, even including Fauci. The footage and proof is there. And if you look at most of the criticism of Trump, it's mainly that he downplayed it and his stylistic mannerisms and oafish things that he says. But on the substance, the main criticism of Trump is about the testing. And if people are going to be reasonable about it, this wasn't an issue because of Trump, it was an issue because we just didn't have the infrastructure to ramp up testing as quickly as we would have liked. It doesn't matter if Obama had been there because he didn't do anything to leave that in place either. The general management style has been solid, I know partisans won't think that but it has. The biggest criticism that governors had was that they were competing for each other for materials, but the proof is in the pudding, no one died because of not having a ventilator. PPE equipment and the sort was largely available aside from some anecdotal instances that were amplified from the media. Again, my criticism of Cuomo isn't because he downplayed it or was late to the social distancing game, it was understandable. No one knew the extent of this until it was too late. And I like to judge people on a relative scale and relatively speaking he was inline with most others. My criticism of Cuomo is his disastrous policy on the nursing homes. That was disastrous. And also how he didn't shut down the MTA, which studies show played a significant role in the transmission of the virus despite Cuomo's touting of his hospitalization findings of who was infected. That data is incomplete as I previously mentioned. Even if you buy their argument that they had to keep it open, then they could have taken different precautions. They didn't even begin the sanitizing overnight deal until just a few days ago. They could have put different restrictions in place. De Sants had it right, he wanted to limit travel from NY and Cuomo was upset about it. Thought that DeSantis was unfairly targeting NY. DeSantis was right. And not only was DeSantis right but he put extra emphasis on the seniors in Florida, which the numbers bore out. Stylistically, I like Cuomo's approach. On the substance, he's failed. 2
IDBillzFan Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 5 hours ago, Kemp said: He claimed he was unaware. Also, some nursing homes said no, while others took them because it meant more money in their pockets. You take Cuomo at his word, but not Trump? Gee. Partisan much? Was Cuomo also unaware when the subways were being cleaned?
Kemp Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said: You take Cuomo at his word, but not Trump? Gee. Partisan much? Was Cuomo also unaware when the subways were being cleaned? I already addressed this earlier in the thread. Cuomo screwed up. Trump has also screwed up. Partisan much?
snafu Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 1 hour ago, Kemp said: No, I'm saying that Trump said they would all be tested. They weren't. If they were tested and found to be positive, they absolutely should have been quarantined. You don't honestly believe that they all self-quarantined. Just going by comments here, it's obvious that a lot of posters here would not have done so. “Should have been quarantined” in what manner? Where and how?
IDBillzFan Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, GG said: If you weren't lazy or intellectually dishonest, you'd recognize that many people criticize Trump when it's warranted. Again, whose actions (not words) put more lives at risk - Trump's or Cuomo's? Here's the logic that screws up leftists like Kemp. They will tell you Trump has blood on his hands because the US accounts for 25% of all Covid deaths in the world. But tell them NY accounts for over 30% of all US deaths, and they will tell you what a great job Cuomo is doing. Stupid should hurt. 5 minutes ago, Kemp said: I already addressed this earlier in the thread. Cuomo screwed up. Trump has also screwed up. Partisan much? It's good to see your ability to mature over a 5-hour stretch. Edited May 7, 2020 by IDBillzFan
Kemp Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 1 minute ago, snafu said: “Should have been quarantined” in what manner? Where and how? However Trump originally thought it should be done. If those were his orders, and I have been assured here that they were his orders, presumably he had a plan. Otherwise he was just spewing nonsense.
plenzmd1 Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 15 minutes ago, Magox said: Truth be told, I don't hold this criticism against them too much. Yes, De Blasio, their health department commissioner and Cuomo all downplayed it similar to Trump. And if we are going to be honest, then you can see that many politicians from the left and right, including the media, even including Fauci. The footage and proof is there. And if you look at most of the criticism of Trump, it's mainly that he downplayed it and his stylistic mannerisms and oafish things that he says. But on the substance, the main criticism of Trump is about the testing. And if people are going to be reasonable about it, this wasn't an issue because of Trump, it was an issue because we just didn't have the infrastructure to ramp up testing as quickly as we would have liked. It doesn't matter if Obama had been there because he didn't do anything to leave that in place either. The general management style has been solid, I know partisans won't think that but it has. The biggest criticism that governors had was that they were competing for each other for materials, but the proof is in the pudding, no one died because of not having a ventilator. PPE equipment and the sort was largely available aside from some anecdotal instances that were amplified from the media. Again, my criticism of Cuomo isn't because he downplayed it or was late to the social distancing game, it was understandable. No one knew the extent of this until it was too late. And I like to judge people on a relative scale and relatively speaking he was inline with most others. My criticism of Cuomo is his disastrous policy on the nursing homes. That was disastrous. And also how he didn't shut down the MTA, which studies show played a significant role in the transmission of the virus despite Cuomo's touting of his hospitalization findings of who was infected. That data is incomplete as I previously mentioned. Even if you buy their argument that they had to keep it open, then they could have taken different precautions. They didn't even begin the sanitizing overnight deal until just a few days ago. They could have put different restrictions in place. De Sants had it right, he wanted to limit travel from NY and Cuomo was upset about it. Thought that DeSantis was unfairly targeting NY. DeSantis was right. And not only was DeSantis right but he put extra emphasis on the seniors in Florida, which the numbers bore out. Stylistically, I like Cuomo's approach. On the substance, he's failed. Couple of things here, and they may not be in order. 1) Think Desantis is going to proved right on a lot of things. He said 10 days ago the prevalence of positives in Miami Dade due to so many NYers getting the hell out of dodge. I mean the pictures we all saw from Disney and the other parks, and all the scorn thrown..and yet Orange county very low per capita positives as i understand it.Which is a whole other ballywhick we need to discuss in terms of opening to large crowds etc.( yes, i own Disney, lets get those parks open STAT) 2) I like you do not blame anyone for decisions that were made were available data. I thought this was the flu as well, i then thought the shutdowns were correct..just as I think data now lends itself to opening back up in waves. My argument with Trump on this process has always been his over promising and under delivering. I think it sets the stage for the acrimony we see daily, and takes the focus of the crisis..and forces people to double down on their positions, no matter what the data says 3) In terms of the MTA..I dont see any way they could have shut it down. Just too many essential people rely on it to get to work, get groceries etc. That being said, count me as one who thinks the sanitation once a day is the same as taking someones temp..done for appearances sake. I cant believe there is soething out there that will kill this thing even twelve hours after the process was performed, let alone 24. If there is, maybe we can look at a way to get into our bloodstream ( i keed, i keed) 4) Cuomo doing the best he can I think, and doing a good job. Mistakes? Certainly. Same way I look at Trump ..mistakes? certainly, but doing the best he can as well 2
snafu Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 9 minutes ago, Kemp said: However Trump originally thought it should be done. If those were his orders, and I have been assured here that they were his orders, presumably he had a plan. Otherwise he was just spewing nonsense. Apologies, but I don’t understand your post. What is the “it” that you’re referring to, and the orders to implement “it”. I’m not trying to be obtuse.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Kemp said: Trump ordered everyone tested and the positive quarantined and they didn't comply is your assertion. If we assume this is accurate, which I don't, it would have been reported to him. This was certainly important enough to have been monitored. If not, he screwed up that way. No, the acting secretary of DHS ordered that. Trump simply communicated the policy. So your first sentence isn't accurate. 1 hour ago, Kemp said: Now, according to the other linked document provided, loads of people came from Europe into America without being tested and obviously not quarantined. Right? Also no. Everyone on the plane except crew were subject to the DHS policy. Edited May 7, 2020 by BuffaloHokie13
snafu Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 1 minute ago, BuffaloHokie13 said: No, the acting secretary of DHS ordered that. Trump simply communicated the policy. So your first sentence isn't accurate. Yep, this is correct. I remember this because when I heard Trump make the announcement on that Wednesday night I was in my car. I shot a quick text to my wife to change her plans and get a flight by Friday because Trump’s announcement was unclear (as usual). By the time I got home, she had changed her flight and it cost her an extra $850. Then I saw the DHS Secretary’s clarification and realized that her flight didn’t need to have been changed.
GaryPinC Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 12 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: Couple of things here, and they may not be in order. 1) Think Desantis is going to proved right on a lot of things. He said 10 days ago the prevalence of positives in Miami Dade due to so many NYers getting the hell out of dodge. I mean the pictures we all saw from Disney and the other parks, and all the scorn thrown..and yet Orange county very low per capita positives as i understand it.Which is a whole other ballywhick we need to discuss in terms of opening to large crowds etc.( yes, i own Disney, lets get those parks open STAT) 2) I like you do not blame anyone for decisions that were made were available data. I thought this was the flu as well, i then thought the shutdowns were correct..just as I think data now lends itself to opening back up in waves. My argument with Trump on this process has always been his over promising and under delivering. I think it sets the stage for the acrimony we see daily, and takes the focus of the crisis..and forces people to double down on their positions, no matter what the data says 3) In terms of the MTA..I dont see any way they could have shut it down. Just too many essential people rely on it to get to work, get groceries etc. That being said, count me as one who thinks the sanitation once a day is the same as taking someones temp..done for appearances sake. I cant believe there is soething out there that will kill this thing even twelve hours after the process was performed, let alone 24. If there is, maybe we can look at a way to get into our bloodstream ( i keed, i keed) 4) Cuomo doing the best he can I think, and doing a good job. Mistakes? Certainly. Same way I look at Trump ..mistakes? certainly, but doing the best he can as well Trying to politicize everything in hindsight gets tiring. It's not easy to forsee a once in a lifetime pandemic. I'm NOT a Cuomo fan and he certainly made mistakes, same as Trump, but he isolated New Rochelle early and I think he believed isolating and testing was the way to go before realizing there wasn't appreciable testing resources! None of our leaders were perfect here but for this type of event how could we have expected them to be? Our citizenry has also been less than perfect in following instructions meant to save lives. It's just America, do we band together to get through this and prevent future occurrences or just bicker about the past? We've all heard about Avian and swine flu, etc that never panned out as awful as they sounded. Didn't help that everyone wanted to compare numbers of an emergent virus vs an endemic influenza virus either. It would be nice if everyone could learn from their mistakes and move forward wiser. 1
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 1 minute ago, snafu said: Yep, this is correct. I remember this because when I heard Trump make the announcement on that Wednesday night I was in my car. I shot a quick text to my wife to change her plans and get a flight by Friday because Trump’s announcement was unclear (as usual). By the time I got home, she had changed her flight and it cost her an extra $850. Then I saw the DHS Secretary’s clarification and realized that her flight didn’t need to have been changed. Right. This big 'lie' that happened literally boils down to the DHS policy says enhanced screening, but for some reason Trump used the word testing when speaking instead. As I mentioned earlier, perhaps it was ignorance on Trump’s part and he assumed the screening involved tests. Perhaps he felt screening and testing were interchangeable in this context (to the average Joe, is enhanced screening distinctly different from heavy testing?). Perhaps there were some basic tests administered as part of the screening, and the press poorly assumed a specific type of test and didn't bother asking for clarification on the testing that would be done. I don't know. And just to reiterate for those in the back (not snafu), Trump definitely lies about a myriad of things. Stop calling everything he says a lie just because you misunderstood or ascribed intent and you'll get significantly less pushback. 2
Magox Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 37 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: Couple of things here, and they may not be in order. 1) Think Desantis is going to proved right on a lot of things. He said 10 days ago the prevalence of positives in Miami Dade due to so many NYers getting the hell out of dodge. I mean the pictures we all saw from Disney and the other parks, and all the scorn thrown..and yet Orange county very low per capita positives as i understand it.Which is a whole other ballywhick we need to discuss in terms of opening to large crowds etc.( yes, i own Disney, lets get those parks open STAT) 2) I like you do not blame anyone for decisions that were made were available data. I thought this was the flu as well, i then thought the shutdowns were correct..just as I think data now lends itself to opening back up in waves. My argument with Trump on this process has always been his over promising and under delivering. I think it sets the stage for the acrimony we see daily, and takes the focus of the crisis..and forces people to double down on their positions, no matter what the data says 3) In terms of the MTA..I dont see any way they could have shut it down. Just too many essential people rely on it to get to work, get groceries etc. That being said, count me as one who thinks the sanitation once a day is the same as taking someones temp..done for appearances sake. I cant believe there is soething out there that will kill this thing even twelve hours after the process was performed, let alone 24. If there is, maybe we can look at a way to get into our bloodstream ( i keed, i keed) 4) Cuomo doing the best he can I think, and doing a good job. Mistakes? Certainly. Same way I look at Trump ..mistakes? certainly, but doing the best he can as well I acknowledge that shutting down the MTA may not have been practical, but they could have done things to limit crowding, or changing the hours of operation or the amount of trips. Something could have been done. The sanitizing that they have in place is something they just instituted. But I think his biggest failure are with the nursing homes. Quote “Obviously the way it rolled out here was pretty disastrous for people — for residents and their families. … This hit us, perhaps, harder than it should have,” Richard J. Mollot, executive director of the Long Term Care Community Coalition, told POLITICO. “Some of this was avoidable, preventable — some of it still is if we take the appropriate actions.” Mollot argued that while New York began limiting visitation at nursing homes and requiring facilities to perform staff health checks and wear personal protective equipment in mid-March, that policy also shut out ombudsmen who serve as advocates and resources for nursing home residents. State health officials, he added, also directed nursing homes to accept Covid-19 patients, even after the AMDA – The Society for Post-Acute and Long-Term Care Medicine came out against the policy and other states followed suit. “I think that policy was, unfortunately, one of the things that led to a lot of avoidable harm,” he said. Like I was saying, I'll give him a pass for being "late to the game" on the social distancing and the false assurances that the risk was "minimal". Because they pretty much are all guilty of this, but the MTA and Nursing home decisions I think missed the mark and could have been avoidable. I don't mean avoidable in an unfair hindsight way, these were decisions that were being criticized early on. 17 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: Trying to politicize everything in hindsight gets tiring. It's not easy to forsee a once in a lifetime pandemic. I'm NOT a Cuomo fan and he certainly made mistakes, same as Trump, but he isolated New Rochelle early and I think he believed isolating and testing was the way to go before realizing there wasn't appreciable testing resources! None of our leaders were perfect here but for this type of event how could we have expected them to be? Our citizenry has also been less than perfect in following instructions meant to save lives. It's just America, do we band together to get through this and prevent future occurrences or just bicker about the past? We've all heard about Avian and swine flu, etc that never panned out as awful as they sounded. Didn't help that everyone wanted to compare numbers of an emergent virus vs an endemic influenza virus either. It would be nice if everyone could learn from their mistakes and move forward wiser. I'm not a hindsight sort of criticizer, never have and never will be. But the things that I mentioned were debated and criticized early on. 2
Magox Posted May 7, 2020 Posted May 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Deranged Rhino said: I know talking about this subject comes off as cold and insensitive. But the median age of death in the US is around 80 years old. And most of those people have at least 2 comorbidities. I care for the elderly, I care for my parents. Despite them both being in good health I am advising for them to not go to public places only when necessary. I don't even visit my parents home, we talk through their screen door. With that said, there clearly are ways to craft better policies that we have already seen. With each passing day, as the data continues to pour in, I am in favor of a more liberal approach than what has been proposed to open up the economy. Again, I know this will sound cold, but the overwhelming vast majority of our population have the antibodies to fight this off. That is just a fact, an undeniable one at that. Just protect the front line workers, extreme focus on senior citizens and improve the therapeutics and let's just do it. The financial carnage and residual effects of these shelter-in-place policies or extreme social distancing will have a profound negative impact for years to come. Edited May 7, 2020 by Magox 4 2
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