Buffalo_Gal Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, Azalin said: China didn't just have an inadequate response, they lied to the rest of the world about the scope and severity of the virus and sold ineffective/defective PPE to other countries trying to deal with it. I do not blame anyone for their response to this, except China. No one knew how contagious this thing was, except China. 7 1
SirAndrew Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 Just now, 4merper4mer said: China had information that they withheld. Maybe nobody got this tight, but some were more wrong than others. Absolutely, I just mean the Western world as a whole was/is not prepared for a pandemic. It’s a reality of the modern world, and the lack of preparation needs to change. China was very deceitful, and deserve much of the blame. However, we live in a bizzare time when the word of a communist/totalitarian state is taken at face value. China might have lied, but organizations like the WHO and other Western agencies need to do better at questioning information coming from China.
3rdnlng Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 29 minutes ago, TH3 said: The US has about 30 percent of global cases and recent daily tallies are 35-40 percent of the new cases. No...it’s not the testing ...our per capita testing is still very low. Hard to ignore those numbers look tremendous in any manner. You should know better....but sick Internet forum burn tho! What's the problem? I hear fish tank cleaner is the new cure. 1
SirAndrew Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Azalin said: China didn't just have an inadequate response, they lied to the rest of the world about the scope and severity of the virus and sold ineffective/defective PPE to other countries trying to deal with it. That’s one of the failures of the Western world I’m taking about though. We all need to end our dependence on China. It’s a scary and very dangerous position to be in. It’s not the fault of you or I, but it is a failure due to many years of terrible policy by the Western world. 3
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 30 minutes ago, TH3 said: The US has about 30 percent of global cases and recent daily tallies are 35-40 percent of the new cases. No...it’s not the testing ...our per capita testing is still very low. Hard to ignore those numbers look tremendous in any manner. You should know better....but sick Internet forum burn tho! The science is settled! Just now, SirAndrew said: That’s one of the failures of the Western world I’m taking about though. We all need to end our dependence on China. It’s a scary and very dangerous position to be in. It’s not the fault of you or I, but it is a failure due to many years of terrible policy by the Western world. Correct. And it's why Trump's reelection is imperative. 3 1
Azalin Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, SirAndrew said: That’s one of the failures of the Western world I’m taking about though. We all need to end our dependence on China. It’s a scary and very dangerous position to be in. It’s not the fault of you or I, but it is a failure due to many years of terrible policy by the Western world. I do not disagree with that. You had said that like the west, that China had been inadequate in their response to the virus. China was deliberately deceitful, both with their own people and with the rest of the world. A lot of people have died because of China that likely wouldn't have. I completely agree that this is a scary and dangerous position to be in, and I would agree that this is great illustration of the need for some kind of plan to deal with pandemics, at least domestically. That said, no plan will ever work if nations behave the way China has. 3
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said: Allowed him to get close, then turned on the jets! Awesome. 2 1 1
Magox Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 47 minutes ago, TPS said: I blamed some others in my last response to you. Yes, anyone who allowed large social gatherings deserves blame. That doesn't absolve trump though. That's the old "but they did it too" excuse.... This is an interesting editorial by the guy who recommended the pandemic czar position on the NSC. There's a lot in it and he published it Jan 30th. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/01/now-trump-needs-deep-state-fight-coronavirus/605752/ My issue all along is that trump was more concerned about the economy early on than the impact from the virus. More and more is coming out to support this point. Navarro’s memo around the same time as the editorial above. A recent NYT piece about that debate within the admin: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-response-takeaways.html?smid=fb-share&fbclid=IwAR0KiZKRBk_vcqWIkcajX_LOO1Nlmy4diaGmecuBIT1J-k6ncJDMjMrcoaM Wall Street finally slapped him in the face when the market tanked after the Fed cut rates to zero (and trump was so giddy that night saying wall street would be happy). He finally started acting presidential in that Monday presser, and I said that in a post here. Unfortunately, he’s taking it to another extreme, using the daily presser as his campaign events…. There is no doubt that the virus was going to hit, and I don’t think many lives could’ve been saved had the virus taken precedent with him March 1st instead of March 16th (the real damage was done by the CDC/FDA testing fiasco during February) However, it is clear to me that he changed after that, and his statements throughout indicate this. The point TPS is that they all didn’t take the measures as seriously as they could have. Which means on a relative basis they are pretty much in the same boat. I see that you are pointing fingers to Trump and not the other governors who were even more reckless than the Federal government response. People tend to confuse Trumps words with the Federal governments response. I also find it bizarre that you rarely mention anything about China. I don’t doubt you made reference to it but that is where the obsession should lie in regards to people’s anger. Dr Fauci just last night on Waters world said that the US response was about as good as it could have been based on the data they had coming from China, which was faulty data. Dr Birx made similar comments about a week ago. Now one could argue that the CDC had a one week issue with the testing and that certainly was an issue. But the Federal response was strong and competent. Not one person according to Cuomo died because of lack of ventilators or hospital bed shortages. Your anger is misplaced. Turn your ire to China, that would be more logical. 1 4
SirAndrew Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Azalin said: I do not disagree with that. You had said that like the west, that China had been inadequate in their response to the virus. China was deliberately deceitful, both with their own people and with the rest of the world. A lot of people have died because of China that likely wouldn't have. I completely agree that this is a scary and dangerous position to be in, and I would agree that this is great illustration of the need for some kind of plan to deal with pandemics, at least domestically. That said, no plan will ever work if nations behave the way China has. No plan will work if a nation lies, but if we have enough hospital beds, ventilators, and proper American made PPE, we’d be in a better position. I’m not even placing blame on particular people outside of China, just saying what’s crucial for the future, even if we are deceived once again. That’s where the West failed. We aren’t set up to deal with the reality of pandemics. This might just be the tip of the iceberg for all we know. We need to mobilize preparation in health like you would with defense. Pandemic preparation is now part of our defense program in many ways. The military prepares for whatever comes their way, even when deceit is involved, that’s where we need to be with public health. We can’t depend on China or international organizations to save us. Edited April 12, 2020 by SirAndrew
Bockeye Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Religious people getting people sick https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/coronavirus-kansas-churches-easter/2020/04/11/04257fec-7c25-11ea-9bee-c5bf9d2e3288_story.html Music Festival attendees dying Granted this is a bit dated, 2016/2017, but 201 deaths. Yikes! Edited April 12, 2020 by Bockeye
4merper4mer Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 43 minutes ago, SirAndrew said: Absolutely, I just mean the Western world as a whole was/is not prepared for a pandemic. It’s a reality of the modern world, and the lack of preparation needs to change. China was very deceitful, and deserve much of the blame. However, we live in a bizzare time when the word of a communist/totalitarian state is taken at face value. China might have lied, but organizations like the WHO and other Western agencies need to do better at questioning information coming from China. Cross the WHO and the UN off the list of organizations that can help. That will never happen. They are 100% corrupt and run by commies. 7
GG Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 Boris Johnson out of the hospital, but wont yet return to work. Will be interesting to hear the treatments. 2 1
Chef Jim Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 17 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Allowed him to get close, then turned on the jets! Awesome. Hey Officer Donut. Try a salad for a change. And is it me or are a majority of the cops morbidly obese these days. 4 minutes ago, GG said: Boris Johnson out of the hospital, but wont yet return to work. Will be interesting to hear the treatments. And how long he held out on the treatment waiting for options from his MD. ? 1 1
GG Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Chef Jim said: Hey Officer Donut. Try a salad for a change. And is it me or are a majority of the cops morbidly obese these days. And how long he held out on the treatment waiting for options from his MD. ? Takes a long time to process 9 million options, you know. On another positive note, looks like NYC has bent the curve. Intubations down to 70/day, from 200-300 last week. Sufficient supply of PPE in hospitals. Edited April 12, 2020 by GG 2 2 1
TPS Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, Magox said: The point TPS is that they all didn’t take the measures as seriously as they could have. Which means on a relative basis they are pretty much in the same boat. I see that you are pointing fingers to Trump and not the other governors who were even more reckless than the Federal government response. People tend to confuse Trumps words with the Federal governments response. I also find it bizarre that you rarely mention anything about China. I don’t doubt you made reference to it but that is where the obsession should lie in regards to people’s anger. Dr Fauci just last night on Waters world said that the US response was about as good as it could have been based on the data they had coming from China, which was faulty data. Dr Birx made similar comments about a week ago. Now one could argue that the CDC had a one week issue with the testing and that certainly was an issue. But the Federal response was strong and competent. Not one person according to Cuomo died because of lack of ventilators or hospital bed shortages. Your anger is misplaced. Turn your ire to China, that would be more logical. Hah! You misunderstand me my friend. I don't have any anger at trump over this, though I did get worked up over his comments about "numbers" related to the Grand Princess docking in the US. My issue is that I stubbornly think I can convince trumpers that he is not infallible. I've made this same argument--that he was more concerned about the stock market than the virus--since March 1st, but there seems to be a large group here that refuses to believe he is capable of error. In fact, I'd suggest you go back and read this thread starting from the last week in February to see how many were parroting the trump lines that the virus was no worse than the flu--the new democratic hoax. I even suggested that this would be his undoing in the election, so I can see why the acolytes resist the idea--he IS infallible! From my perspective, It seems clear to me that you have to be pretty biased not see how he changed from February through March 16th. One has to deny that he said we only had 15 cases and it will be zero soon. Or that Kudlow and others were saying we have it contained. Don't want any pessimistic views impacting the stock market. Hell, he tweeted again about the stock market's performance this week. He's very focused... As for China, my focus has been on the US response once it hit. That editorial I posted suggested China was lying as of Jan 30th; Navarro was trying to get trump's attention at the same time. So, to me, that's just another excuse to explain trump's lack of urgency for those who can't seem to blame him for anything. Was China lying? Yes, and our national security people knew it (Navarro knew it) and the admin was briefed on just how severe the threat was. It's never trump's fault, and there is no buck on his desk.... As for Fauci and Birx, what do you think would happen to those two if they contradicted the admin's line and said our response was was not as good as it possibly could be? I mean, this is the guy who is the best, the greatest at everything, no? 1
Magox Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 @TPS The curve and deaths per million I believe is the best gauge that governments response should be judged. Look at the above illustration. 1 3
SoCal Deek Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 I went on the CDC website this morning and found their charts on the progression of the virus. They include a day by day tally of US reported cases. All through January and February there were virtually no reported cases anywhere in America. February 28th shows a grand total of 16 cases! The narrative that the Federal Government was slow to react is simply FAKE NEWS. 1 1
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, TPS said: Hah! You misunderstand me my friend. I don't have any anger at trump over this, though I did get worked up over his comments about "numbers" related to the Grand Princess docking in the US. My issue is that I stubbornly think I can convince trumpers that he is not infallible. I've made this same argument--that he was more concerned about the stock market than the virus--since March 1st, but there seems to be a large group here that refuses to believe he is capable of error. In fact, I'd suggest you go back and read this thread starting from the last week in February to see how many were parroting the trump lines that the virus was no worse than the flu--the new democratic hoax. I even suggested that this would be his undoing in the election, so I can see why the acolytes resist the idea--he IS infallible! From my perspective, It seems clear to me that you have to be pretty biased not see how he changed from February through March 16th. One has to deny that he said we only had 15 cases and it will be zero soon. Or that Kudlow and others were saying we have it contained. Don't want any pessimistic views impacting the stock market. Hell, he tweeted again about the stock market's performance this week. He's very focused... As for China, my focus has been on the US response once it hit. That editorial I posted suggested China was lying as of Jan 30th; Navarro was trying to get trump's attention at the same time. So, to me, that's just another excuse to explain trump's lack of urgency for those who can't seem to blame him for anything. Was China lying? Yes, and our national security people knew it (Navarro knew it) and the admin was briefed on just how severe the threat was. It's never trump's fault, and there is no buck on his desk.... As for Fauci and Birx, what do you think would happen to those two if they contradicted the admin's line and said our response was was not as good as it possibly could be? I mean, this is the guy who is the best, the greatest at everything, no? ...let's just stop your political rhetoric.......didn't Fauci and Brix override Trump's "Easter Reopening"?.....aren't they now talking potentially May 1 along with the SG despite Trump's optimism?.....have they been fired YET for being contradictory?..... Edited April 12, 2020 by OldTimeAFLGuy 4 1
TPS Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, Magox said: @TPS The curve and deaths per million I believe is the best gauge that governments response should be judged. Look at the above illustration. Yes, and I'll say it again, the comparison should be made at similar stages or in a few months when we're through the worst. I don't think anyone has ever compared us to Italy on this site though, so I"m not sure what you're point is? For countries with a significant number of cases, we'll probably end up in the middle.
billsfan1959 Posted April 12, 2020 Posted April 12, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Magox said: The point TPS is that they all didn’t take the measures as seriously as they could have. Which means on a relative basis they are pretty much in the same boat. I see that you are pointing fingers to Trump and not the other governors who were even more reckless than the Federal government response. People tend to confuse Trumps words with the Federal governments response. I also find it bizarre that you rarely mention anything about China. I don’t doubt you made reference to it but that is where the obsession should lie in regards to people’s anger. Dr Fauci just last night on Waters world said that the US response was about as good as it could have been based on the data they had coming from China, which was faulty data. Dr Birx made similar comments about a week ago. Now one could argue that the CDC had a one week issue with the testing and that certainly was an issue. But the Federal response was strong and competent. Not one person according to Cuomo died because of lack of ventilators or hospital bed shortages. Your anger is misplaced. Turn your ire to China, that would be more logical. 1. They criticized Trump for not listening to the doctors and the scientists. Of course, they don't bother to accuse every other leader of not listening to the doctors and scientists when their responses, pretty much outside of South Korea and Germany, seems to be much worse than Trump's. And then people like Fauci and Birx say he has listened to them every step of the way, and they all relied on the WHO, which is supposed to be the world's voice for the medical and science communities. 2. They criticized Trump for ignoring intelligence information. Of course, they don't bother to explain how every government around the world, including countries with some pretty good intelligence agencies, must have ignored theirs as well, or didn't bother to share it. Then we find out that intelligence information being peddled by the media never actually existed. 3. They criticized Trump for firing the entire Pandemic Response Team. Of course, they fail to demonstrate for us how pandemic response teams and experts around the world led their countries to better responses to the virus than seen here. Then we find out that Trump didn't actually fire the team. The team was disbanded but some of the members were subsumed under a broader directorate, where their expertise could be comingled with the expertise of others in related areas of arms control and nonproliferation, weapons of mass destruction terrorism, and global health and biodefense. 4. They criticized Trump for ignoring warnings of a pandemic of this nature and not restocking a bare cupboard of PPE and medical equipment / supplies. Of course, they don't bother to explain how or why previous administrations, those politicians at the state levels, and governments all around the world somehow ignored those warnings and left all their cupbords bare. The list goes on and on. They will tell us that they mention some of these other things in their posts, and they do from time to time. However, their obsessive vitriol is always aimed at Trump. They cling to the idea that Trump should have seen what was coming when nobody else did... ....And they barely give China a passing interest..... Edited April 12, 2020 by billsfan1959 8
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