GaryPinC Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 5 hours ago, BillStime said: Trump had to get reelected. He knew if he publicly acknowledged the severity of the virus - and advocated science - it would both ruin his “economy” and election chances. Hence why Trump controlled the narrative and castrated science. Result? One of the worst infection and death rate of developed countries. We all lost. Trump didn't castrate anything. The science was very much a mess when lockdowns were initiated, science takes time and numbers then more time and repeat. He failed badly in setting a cohesive national response encouraging consistent precaution and civic duty. But then you had the left wing and MSM panic-***** every facet of this in a lecturing tone. Equally helpful.
BillStime Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: Trump didn't castrate anything. The science was very much a mess when lockdowns were initiated, science takes time and numbers then more time and repeat. He failed badly in setting a cohesive national response encouraging consistent precaution and civic duty. But then you had the left wing and MSM panic-***** every facet of this in a lecturing tone. Equally helpful. The Trump administration muzzled science - plenty of evidence out there. He politicized the whole entire thing because he knew death, masks and lockdowns didn’t look good for him. So he denied it all and lots of people died. Oh - keep blaming the MSM... very Trumpian of you. Always someone else’s fault
GaryPinC Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 7 hours ago, BillStime said: The Trump administration muzzled science - plenty of evidence out there. He politicized the whole entire thing because he knew death, masks and lockdowns didn’t look good for him. So he denied it all and lots of people died. Oh - keep blaming the MSM... very Trumpian of you. Always someone else’s fault Trump ignored plenty of the science, even mocked some of it. I can personally tell you Ohio followed the science. It appears most of the governors in this country did also. Right from the CDC. If you can rail on Trump but fail to see how the MSM has little to no journalistic integrity on political issues, then you are a larger problem than Trump. Mistrust in our media is shared by middle-of-the-road people such as myself and facilitated widespread acceptance of the alt right media. It's one of our largest challenges as a nation, and crucial for bringing us back together, IMO.
All_Pro_Bills Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 7 hours ago, BillStime said: The Trump administration muzzled science - plenty of evidence out there. He politicized the whole entire thing because he knew death, masks and lockdowns didn’t look good for him. So he denied it all and lots of people died. Oh - keep blaming the MSM... very Trumpian of you. Always someone else’s fault Always someone else's fault! That's a good insight. I can certainly concede to the point Trump dodged responsibility. Its one of the reasons he lost the election. But isn't blaming someone else the basis of all liberal ideology? Without a doubt it is. Now I'm not suggesting they have a monopoly on skirting blame but its their number one go-to move for sure. To prove it all you have to do is listen to their words, look at their actions, and at what remedies they propose. Always and everywhere absolving the "victim" of any and all responsibility for any and all outcomes.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, GaryPinC said: Trump didn't castrate anything. The science was very much a mess when lockdowns were initiated, science takes time and numbers then more time and repeat. He failed badly in setting a cohesive national response encouraging consistent precaution and civic duty. But then you had the left wing and MSM panic-***** every facet of this in a lecturing tone. Equally helpful. Do you think the US fudged our numbers? I understand your perspective on Trump and national strategy—as well as left wing/MSM panic, but we never actually had a lockdown regardless of which perspective one takes on this. We had many, many folks complying, masking up, staying home. We had some folks not complying and going about their day as best as possible. We had massive gatherings week after week after week with people from all walks of life arriving from parts unknown. We had Trump and his angle. We had the Dems and their angle. We had science rationally speaking to the compliant and whistling through the graveyard on the other. We had the MSM wringing their hands with a daily death count, ignoring any investigative work into spread caused by mass gatherings, and the infection/count reporting changing in tone around January. It was exceptionally difficult to trust any of the parties involved. Edited April 30, 2021 by leh-nerd skin-erd 1
SoCal Deek Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 I’m curious what people think of the latest numbers. We’re still hovering right under 1,000 deaths per day even after so many are vaccinated. I honestly thought that number would be way down by now. I don’t know think it’s all that different from last May when we of course didn’t have a vaccine. Thoughts?
dpberr Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m curious what people think of the latest numbers. We’re still hovering right under 1,000 deaths per day even after so many are vaccinated. I honestly thought that number would be way down by now. I don’t know think it’s all that different from last May when we of course didn’t have a vaccine. Thoughts? The vaccine isn't as effective out in the wilderness of the unhealthy American body. When you read through the pages of people Pfizer and Moderna excluded from the testing, you come to the conclusion that yes, the vaccine works great in a relatively healthy body that doesn't have a lot of problems. it's augmenting an already capable immune defense. Problem is America as a whole, is exceptionally unhealthy. I don't think its efficacy is anywhere as high in the morbidly obese, those with cancers, those with diabetes, those with chronic inflammation, or those extremely vitamin deficient and that covers a large swath of America. It's not a miracle drug.
Chef Jim Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m curious what people think of the latest numbers. We’re still hovering right under 1,000 deaths per day even after so many are vaccinated. I honestly thought that number would be way down by now. I don’t know think it’s all that different from last May when we of course didn’t have a vaccine. Thoughts? It's over man!! No one is dying any longer. Deaths stopped the minute Biden was sworn in. 100 days of gloriousness! 1
Big Blitz Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) China rn..... Edited April 30, 2021 by Big Blitz
Unforgiven Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 Well alrigh...err wait a minute... Aren't travel bans raysis?????? 1 1
Chef Jim Posted April 30, 2021 Posted April 30, 2021 A good friend and classmate from WNY works at the US Embassy I Mumbai.
Big Blitz Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 Remember when we "sheltered in place" because we had to science or something? Remember when we had to contact trace and test everyone? We still obey these people. Pathetic.
GaryPinC Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 23 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Do you think the US fudged our numbers? I understand your perspective on Trump and national strategy—as well as left wing/MSM panic, but we never actually had a lockdown regardless of which perspective one takes on this. We had many, many folks complying, masking up, staying home. We had some folks not complying and going about their day as best as possible. We had massive gatherings week after week after week with people from all walks of life arriving from parts unknown. We had Trump and his angle. We had the Dems and their angle. We had science rationally speaking to the compliant and whistling through the graveyard on the other. We had the MSM wringing their hands with a daily death count, ignoring any investigative work into spread caused by mass gatherings, and the infection/count reporting changing in tone around January. It was exceptionally difficult to trust any of the parties involved. Do I think the US fudged their numbers? Yes, during lockdown at the hospital level, especially smaller hospitals. Do I think this "fudging" was frequent enough to overstate the severity of the pandemic? Nope. There's clearly a consistency of problem across the world with India and Brazil currently center stage. We did actually have a lockdown, at least here in Ohio and New York and I think in most other states in the US. I don't know how you argue we didn't. Businesses shuttered, stay-at-home orders, travel bans. Were they very effective compared to the Chinese? Nope, and they weren't strictly enforced because so many people refused to believe they were necessary. So lockdown to the point where extremists don't take us into anarchy. I understand where you're coming from on all the angles, but at some point you've got to apply some common sense with the big picture. Health systems were being quickly overwhelmed in Europe and China before Covid even got going here. That continues to this day. How are we not a thoughtful enough society to be proactive and participate fully to prevent that here? All this is just a ploy by politicians to control us? The largest authoritarian country in the world has been mask free for a full year and carrying on normally with their lives. How ######ed is the notion that free societies are being manipulated by our leaders using this pandemic for long term subjugation? But, more to the heart of the matter your post hints at, we had poor leadership at the federal level, including the CDC. There needed to be some leadership about what we know and what we don't know and how that was changing real time in addition to the recommendations for moving forward. I don't argue with Trump allowing governor leadership but he failed completely to rally the American people to pull together and beat this. Supposedly he hid the problem early on to avoid scaring people. We honestly needed a well-thought scare from him. Too many people needed to see images/videos of people dying horribly in the hospitals but the hospitals don't allow those images to be captured. Sadly, that is what it would have taken for so many to stop nit-picking, questioning and simply pull together.
GaryPinC Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 21 hours ago, dpberr said: The vaccine isn't as effective out in the wilderness of the unhealthy American body. When you read through the pages of people Pfizer and Moderna excluded from the testing, you come to the conclusion that yes, the vaccine works great in a relatively healthy body that doesn't have a lot of problems. it's augmenting an already capable immune defense. Problem is America as a whole, is exceptionally unhealthy. I don't think its efficacy is anywhere as high in the morbidly obese, those with cancers, those with diabetes, those with chronic inflammation, or those extremely vitamin deficient and that covers a large swath of America. It's not a miracle drug. And just how ineffective is it for "unhealthy" people? I would argue we're not "exceptionally" unhealthy. Statistical significance in a blinded, randomized, quality clinical trial is a difficult thing to attain. Of course you control with the most "healthy" people to clearly judge efficacy then follow through with the rest later. Especially in a pandemic when you are conducting shortened clinical trials to give society a rapid answer. The mRNA vaccines were taken to market in less than a year, each tested in over 30,000 people. Numbers are showing they greatly lower infection and transmission rates, they lower hospitalization and especially death rates. With a minimum of serious side effects in a previously unproven technology. They also modified the spike protein to more effectively train the immune system. The sum of that in less than a year qualifies as a miracle IMO, but you do you. It is common sense to assume the vaccines won't be as effective for those with underlying comorbidities. But it is not common sense to simply assume they are markedly less effective in this patient population. Do you have any published studies that quantify the loss of efficacy?
SoCal Deek Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 47 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: Do I think the US fudged their numbers? Yes, during lockdown at the hospital level, especially smaller hospitals. Do I think this "fudging" was frequent enough to overstate the severity of the pandemic? Nope. There's clearly a consistency of problem across the world with India and Brazil currently center stage. We did actually have a lockdown, at least here in Ohio and New York and I think in most other states in the US. I don't know how you argue we didn't. Businesses shuttered, stay-at-home orders, travel bans. Were they very effective compared to the Chinese? Nope, and they weren't strictly enforced because so many people refused to believe they were necessary. So lockdown to the point where extremists don't take us into anarchy. I understand where you're coming from on all the angles, but at some point you've got to apply some common sense with the big picture. Health systems were being quickly overwhelmed in Europe and China before Covid even got going here. That continues to this day. How are we not a thoughtful enough society to be proactive and participate fully to prevent that here? All this is just a ploy by politicians to control us? The largest authoritarian country in the world has been mask free for a full year and carrying on normally with their lives. How ######ed is the notion that free societies are being manipulated by our leaders using this pandemic for long term subjugation? But, more to the heart of the matter your post hints at, we had poor leadership at the federal level, including the CDC. There needed to be some leadership about what we know and what we don't know and how that was changing real time in addition to the recommendations for moving forward. I don't argue with Trump allowing governor leadership but he failed completely to rally the American people to pull together and beat this. Supposedly he hid the problem early on to avoid scaring people. We honestly needed a well-thought scare from him. Too many people needed to see images/videos of people dying horribly in the hospitals but the hospitals don't allow those images to be captured. Sadly, that is what it would have taken for so many to stop nit-picking, questioning and simply pull together. This is a complex issue for sure but I don’t think it’s possible for me to disagree on almost every single one of your conclusions any more fervently than I do.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 33 minutes ago, GaryPinC said: Do I think the US fudged their numbers? Yes, during lockdown at the hospital level, especially smaller hospitals. Do I think this "fudging" was frequent enough to overstate the severity of the pandemic? Nope. There's clearly a consistency of problem across the world with India and Brazil currently center stage. We did actually have a lockdown, at least here in Ohio and New York and I think in most other states in the US. I don't know how you argue we didn't. Businesses shuttered, stay-at-home orders, travel bans. Were they very effective compared to the Chinese? Nope, and they weren't strictly enforced because so many people refused to believe they were necessary. So lockdown to the point where extremists don't take us into anarchy. I understand where you're coming from on all the angles, but at some point you've got to apply some common sense with the big picture. Health systems were being quickly overwhelmed in Europe and China before Covid even got going here. That continues to this day. How are we not a thoughtful enough society to be proactive and participate fully to prevent that here? All this is just a ploy by politicians to control us? The largest authoritarian country in the world has been mask free for a full year and carrying on normally with their lives. How ######ed is the notion that free societies are being manipulated by our leaders using this pandemic for long term subjugation? But, more to the heart of the matter your post hints at, we had poor leadership at the federal level, including the CDC. There needed to be some leadership about what we know and what we don't know and how that was changing real time in addition to the recommendations for moving forward. I don't argue with Trump allowing governor leadership but he failed completely to rally the American people to pull together and beat this. Supposedly he hid the problem early on to avoid scaring people. We honestly needed a well-thought scare from him. Too many people needed to see images/videos of people dying horribly in the hospitals but the hospitals don't allow those images to be captured. Sadly, that is what it would have taken for so many to stop nit-picking, questioning and simply pull together. At one point the numbers were projected to be 25% high. Anecdotally, my neighbor passed away after 6 months of intestinal issues, blockages, sustained diarrhea, inability to thrive all post-cancer treatment, developed COVID in her final hours and was a victim of COVID. In a country of 330m it’s fair to wonder how many other cases followed that path. Also, as pointed out by another poster, we’re losing 1000 people a day yet suddenly restrictions are being lifted? 300,000 victims is acceptable? I really don’t want to hound you on this, your reply is thoughtful and I appreciate it. I rarely get a reply on the confounding question that has bothered me for a year now: In a worldwide pandemic as described above, how on earth can there be any justification to allow protests regardless of the righteous nature of the cause to go unaddressed for months on end? I’ve been torn on the rationale: 1. The understanding that mass gatherings lead to spread, often to the most vulnerable in our society, and suffering and death was the ultimate goal; 2. There was a much greater understanding about how the virus spread and we were lied to or at a minimum, manipulated. 3. Blissful incompetence; I respect your confidence in the info coming out of China, but I’m a skeptic. As far as pulling together, I’m a lifetime get-along guy. I come from a large family, and I’m square in the middle. However, as I get older, I’m much more mindful of who(m) I meet in the middle and I’m not all that interested in meeting some anymore. If it matters, I’ve followed every protocol recommended including quarantining after a trip to Florida when our @$$hole governor came up with his ‘virus don’t spread from adjoining states’ angle. As for a lockdown, as I said, compliant folks locked down in thought, word and deed. Tens of thousands ignored the lockdown week after week after week contributing to the spread. Hardly locked down. Thanks again. 1
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted May 1, 2021 Posted May 1, 2021 31 minutes ago, BillStime said: Good for Christie for being objective. 1
Big Blitz Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 10% of public school kids left in 2021. I expect that number to jump to 35% as we watch the exact same b.s. play out this summer as it did last year. School districts string parents along until early August to make decisions they already know right now today they are making despite all those rigged surveys your filling out on "return to learn." Public schools will be mitigating until every kid is vaccinated. They will be keeping them at half capacity or less, and enforce masking and distancing indefinitely.
Boatdrinks Posted May 2, 2021 Posted May 2, 2021 On 4/30/2021 at 8:42 AM, SoCal Deek said: I’m curious what people think of the latest numbers. We’re still hovering right under 1,000 deaths per day even after so many are vaccinated. I honestly thought that number would be way down by now. I don’t know think it’s all that different from last May when we of course didn’t have a vaccine. Thoughts? A lot of Americans are overweight, and our population is aging. Those folks are perfect targets for Covid. Still, the fatality rate is very, very low. Don’t know what the numbers were last May. I don’t care much about the numbers as the vaccine is out there , thanks to Trump. People can get it if they want, or not. Time to move on. 1
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