SoCal Deek Posted February 21, 2021 Posted February 21, 2021 3 hours ago, WideNine said: When my son got into HS they gave all of us parents a big speech about letting go and letting them become more responsible. Then, when he had not taken a test that made up a large portion of his grade and was dodging them at school, they started hounding the wife and me. We told them to fail him. We explained that they are not teaching or preparing him for life if he learns that not doing the work carries no repercussions. No one hounds these kids about missing assignments and tests when (and if) they go to college. They want to sleep thru classes, fine. Colleges will take your money and fail you with no ***** to give. The HS couldn't though, because failing kids impacts funding. They found a way to pass him any way and my kid was smug about calling their bluff and gaming the bizarre system we have today. Wow....there's a ton to unpack there. Yes, college is not high school. There is no requirement for a public education beyond the 12th Grade. Yes, the school did the right thing by telling the parents it was time to let their high schooler gain more independence. No, it really doesn't help to fail kids and kick them to the curb. What then? We all know that some kids struggle in high school, but it does them no good to come out of school without a diploma. It's a recipe for disaster! And no, they're not getting into college with a terrible grade point average, so let them stay in school during the day (instead of on the street), and drag them across the finish line, in hopes that they can get a job of some sort instead of being a burden on society. It's more than just funding!
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 4 hours ago, WideNine said: It's a mix like most things are. For many parents I talk to the first or second thing they mention is asking how are they expected to juggle a work schedule with their kids at home during the day. Not to recognize this as a major friction point and public service schools provision is disingenuous. When we get past the superlatives of calling teachers heroes while cutting their pay, supporting "one size fits all" rigid state and federal academic guidance, and reducing programs for struggling kids who they dare not fail or they impact the limited funding they get, we find that for some it is their muse and they are trying their best and for others I have met, not so much. One of the great fallacies of American life is the “teacher are heroes”. The reality are is some teachers are exceptional, most average and a precious few suck quite badly. It’s a label they can’t possibly live up to when the sh$t hits the fan. What they are is reasonably well-compensated employees in an “only game in town” gambit protected by an incredibly powerful lobbying group. Of course there is a day care element to the game—-the state dictates the rules and Regis of the game, people work hard to get to a “good school district” and anticipate that the perceived value will be there on the other side.
WideNine Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Wow....there's a ton to unpack there. Yes, college is not high school. There is no requirement for a public education beyond the 12th Grade. Yes, the school did the right thing by telling the parents it was time to let their high schooler gain more independence. No, it really doesn't help to fail kids and kick them to the curb. What then? We all know that some kids struggle in high school, but it does them no good to come out of school without a diploma. It's a recipe for disaster! And no, they're not getting into college with a terrible grade point average, so let them stay in school during the day (instead of on the street), and drag them across the finish line, in hopes that they can get a job of some sort instead of being a burden on society. It's more than just funding! Funding is not everything, on that we can agree. My point is that systems and guidance adopted over the past 50 years largely have not closed the education gap between us and comparable nations. In many studies we are right where we started in our ranking if not lower. We are still woefully below average, so there should be room to rethink our brick and mortar education strategies, tools used, and investment in teachers Folks forget that there had been waves of teacher union strikes before Covid hit. Seems to have been put on the back burner since, but better pay is still a lingering underlying issue. Edited February 22, 2021 by WideNine
SoCal Deek Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 13 hours ago, WideNine said: Funding is not everything, on that we can agree. My point is that systems and guidance adopted over the past 50 years largely have not closed the education gap between us and comparable nations. In many studies we are right where we started in our ranking if not lower. We are still woefully below average, so there should be room to rethink our brick and mortar education strategies, tools used, and investment in teachers Folks forget that there had been waves of teacher union strikes before Covid hit. Seems to have been put on the back burner since, but better pay is still a lingering underlying issue. We disagree on a lot. I’m assuming you’re not trying to say that if we only pay these same teachers more that they’ll work harder and do better at their jobs. I’m assuming you mean the profession will attract better talent? The teachers I generally know work hard but we’re spending too much time on the wrong or superfluous subject matter. If we’re ranked as low as people say then it’s obviously time to break the whole thing down and get back to basics. You need to learn to read so you can read to learn. And you need to know your math basics before you can move on to more complex principles. Wasting time on ethnic studies, social restructuring, and gender identity is an elective class ‘luxury’ we simply don’t have. 1
Big Blitz Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 Why? What happened to following metrics? How do you know what they'll be in the fall? Why does this idiot thinks he makes policy? 1
Plano Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 On 1/23/2020 at 10:30 AM, Dante said: More fear porn. No one will die. At least that can be verified. lets have another laugh at this, shall we? Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh Dante.
Buffalo Bills Fan Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 Putting myself out there. Know and people not for mask. But some people turned me down use it to protect those with some kind health problems or older people. Really think this is the way. It's my freedom of speech not a single person gonna change my thoughts. As well as long term covid know a lady that has it. Feel for her daily. It's not fake. Like I said this is my own thoughts.
WideNine Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 5 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: We disagree on a lot. I’m assuming you’re not trying to say that if we only pay these same teachers more that they’ll work harder and do better at their jobs. I’m assuming you mean the profession will attract better talent? The teachers I generally know work hard but we’re spending too much time on the wrong or superfluous subject matter. If we’re ranked as low as people say then it’s obviously time to break the whole thing down and get back to basics. You need to learn to read so you can read to learn. And you need to know your math basics before you can move on to more complex principles. Wasting time on ethnic studies, social restructuring, and gender identity is an elective class ‘luxury’ we simply don’t have. I do agree that we spend far too much time on the nice-to-haves and too little prescriptive efforts on effective education mission. My daughter's school has a list of extra-curricular social programs they are involved in yet they cannot even get the basic logistics of class schedules sent out on time and accurate. I am not one for reinventing the wheel, but if studies show that there are other countries that are doing better while spending less per student, what can we learn from what they are doing to apply to our efforts here in the States. I am not one to drone on about America being the greatest if we are getting spanked by other nations on standardized testing that have been used for ranking. The studies I have looked into show that those countries doing well often pay teachers much more, but are highly selective - only the best of the best get the gigs. Teachers have post-graduate degrees and have to beat out other teachers to get a shot at teaching in their public education system. It is very competitive; I don't think we can say the same thing about how we think about education here and how we select and hire teachers in the US. Another odd difference I have noticed is that many schools abroad also promote uniforms. Uniforms are cheaper than the latest fashions each year and families with less means usually can still afford them. I think they help blur the lines between socioeconomic gaps that can fuel weird cliques and divisive popularity contests. Youth spend less time worrying about how to impress each other over fashion and focus more on studies. Having traveled abroad, we are one of the few nations I see that really don't promote this as part of a new education vision. Private schools in the States often do, but I think the few public districts that have tried (in one case to cut down on gang-specific attire) and folks blew a gasket... what about my child's freedom of expression - yada yada.... 1
Buffalo Bills Fan Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 5 minutes ago, WideNine said: I do agree that we spend far too much time on the nice-to-haves and too little prescriptive efforts on effective education mission. My daughter's school has a list of extra-curricular social programs they are involved in yet they cannot even get the basic logistics of class schedules sent out on time and accurate. I am not one for reinventing the wheel, but if studies show that there are other countries that are doing better while spending less per student, what can we learn from what they are doing to apply to our efforts here in the States. I am not one to drone on about America being the greatest if we are getting spanked by other nations on standardized testing that have been used for ranking. The studies I have looked into show that those countries doing well often pay teachers much more, but are highly selective - only the best of the best get the gigs. Teachers have post-graduate degrees and have to beat out other teachers to get a shot at teaching in their public education system. It is very competitive; I don't think we can say the same thing about how we think about education here and how we select and hire teachers in the US. Another odd difference I have noticed is that many schools abroad also promote uniforms. Uniforms are cheaper than the latest fashions each year and families with less means usually can still afford them. I think they help blur the lines between socioeconomic gaps that can fuel weird cliques and divisive popularity contests. Youth spend less time worrying about how to impress each other over fashion and focus more on studies. Having traveled abroad, we are one of the few nations I see that really don't promote this as part of a new education vision. Private schools in the States often do, but I think the few public districts that have tried (in one case to cut down on gang-specific attire) and folks blew a gasket... what about my child's freedom of expression - yada yada.... Well said. Love reading you're posts Widenine. Sometimes disagree with you (keep to myself) but like that for both sides. You're a really good poster here. Love hearing what you have to say lots of time. 1 1
SoCal Deek Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 30 minutes ago, WideNine said: I do agree that we spend far too much time on the nice-to-haves and too little prescriptive efforts on effective education mission. My daughter's school has a list of extra-curricular social programs they are involved in yet they cannot even get the basic logistics of class schedules sent out on time and accurate. I am not one for reinventing the wheel, but if studies show that there are other countries that are doing better while spending less per student, what can we learn from what they are doing to apply to our efforts here in the States. I am not one to drone on about America being the greatest if we are getting spanked by other nations on standardized testing that have been used for ranking. The studies I have looked into show that those countries doing well often pay teachers much more, but are highly selective - only the best of the best get the gigs. Teachers have post-graduate degrees and have to beat out other teachers to get a shot at teaching in their public education system. It is very competitive; I don't think we can say the same thing about how we think about education here and how we select and hire teachers in the US. Another odd difference I have noticed is that many schools abroad also promote uniforms. Uniforms are cheaper than the latest fashions each year and families with less means usually can still afford them. I think they help blur the lines between socioeconomic gaps that can fuel weird cliques and divisive popularity contests. Youth spend less time worrying about how to impress each other over fashion and focus more on studies. Having traveled abroad, we are one of the few nations I see that really don't promote this as part of a new education vision. Private schools in the States often do, but I think the few public districts that have tried (in one case to cut down on gang-specific attire) and folks blew a gasket... what about my child's freedom of expression - yada yada.... Where to start: First, FYI class schedules are built by the counseling office at most schools, not the teachers. It’s complicated because of late registering students and the need to balance the master schedule from teacher to teacher. This is especially challenging at small schools, where electives are in short supply. Second, unless you eliminate the teacher’s Union you aren’t going to fix the merit pay issue. Just saying. Finally, we have many california schools that require uniforms. Mostly at the elementary level. It does simplify the fashion show, but makes little measurable difference in the quality of education. 1
WideNine Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 24 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Where to start: First, FYI class schedules are built by the counseling office at most schools, not the teachers. It’s complicated because of late registering students and the need to balance the master schedule from teacher to teacher. This is especially challenging at small schools, where electives are in short supply. Second, unless you eliminate the teacher’s Union you aren’t going to fix the merit pay issue. Just saying. Finally, we have many california schools that require uniforms. Mostly at the elementary level. It does simplify the fashion show, but makes little measurable difference in the quality of education. where to begin unpacking this.... First, I believe I said "school" and not "teacher" when referencing them being unable to provision my daughter's schedule. I believe we were discussing the brick and mortar institution as a whole not just teachers. Also my daughter's middle school only has one counselor let alone having a counseling office, so I do not believe this "office creating schedules" is standard across all schools for lower K-12 grades. I expect the local HS does have a more active academic counseling dept. Second, if changing the teaching union is what it takes then that may well be where the discussion starts. I am not sure how much teachers would oppose merit systems if they were allowed more say in tailoring their education plans to student needs. I also find that State and Federal funding could be used to reward merit and could influence discussions as well. Finally, regarding uniforms, what studies have you looked at that prove that uniforms make little measurable difference in education outcomes - any links? This is a curiosity for me since so many other countries with better schools practice this simple measure.
SoCal Deek Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, WideNine said: where to begin unpacking this.... First, I believe I said "school" and not "teacher" when referencing them being unable to provision my daughter's schedule. I believe we were discussing the brick and mortar institution as a whole not just teachers. Also my daughter's middle school only has one counselor let alone having a counseling office, so I do not believe this "office creating schedules" is standard across all schools for lower K-12 grades. I expect the local HS does have a more active academic counseling dept. Second, if changing the teaching union is what it takes then that may well be where the discussion starts. I am not sure how much teachers would oppose merit systems if they were allowed more say in tailoring their education plans to student needs. I also find that State and Federal funding could be used to reward merit and could influence discussions as well. Finally, regarding uniforms, what studies have you looked at that prove that uniforms make little measurable difference in education outcomes - any links? This is a curiosity for me since so many other countries with better schools practice this simple measure. And away we go. First, my wife 's been a public middle school counselor for twenty years. (I'm not making this stuff up on the fly.) And no, the school teachers do NOT prepare the master schedule. If it isn't the counseling department, it is done by the school administrator. Second, the pay scale (known as 'step and column') is not up to the teachers. If you haven't figured it out, the union leaders do the negotiating for them...otherwise known as collective bargaining. The better performing teachers are never going to get that type of merit pay 'legislation' past the union. It will be opposed by all of the lesser performing teachers...which is not to say that all teachers are lesser performing. Third, you're cherry picking on the uniforms. Just because other countries get better results, it doesn't mean it's because of the uniforms. However, I'm not opposed to uniforms and have seen little opposition to it in any of my dealings with many, many school districts. Hope that helps. Edited February 22, 2021 by SoCal Deek
WideNine Posted February 22, 2021 Posted February 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: And away we go. First, my wife 's been a public middle school counselor for twenty years. (I'm not making this stuff up on the fly.) And no, the school teachers do NOT prepare the master schedule. If it isn't the counseling department, it is done by the school administrator. Second, the pay scale (known as 'step and column') is not up to the teachers. If you haven't figured it out, the union leaders do the negotiating for them...otherwise known as collective bargaining. The better performing teachers are never going to get that type of merit pay 'legislation' past the union. It will be opposed by all of the lesser performing teachers...which is not to say that all teachers are lesser performing. Third, you're cherry picking on the uniforms. Just because other countries get better results, it doesn't mean it's because of the uniforms. However, I'm not opposed to uniforms and have seen little opposition to it in any of my dealings with many, many school districts. Hope that helps. You seem very keen to argue. Once again, I NEVER said teachers make the schedule. Not sure where your reading comprehension gaps are coming from. And yes, the counselor at my daughter's school did not craft her schedule so based on your information it must have been an administration function done elsewhere. Second, I have looked into the pros and cons of merit-based teaching. It is good to hear your take and learn more about the nuances of what the unions have bargained for in various districts. Works in some places and in others it has not. It is actually in use in some, but it is a small percentage. Sounds like a tool that could improve performance if implemented judiciously and as more of a broad federal guideline rather than the result of patchwork state-by-state district-by-district arbitration agreements. https://www.educationnext.org/in-the-united-states-merit-pay-plans-for-teachers-are-few-and-far-between/ Not cherry-picking, was asking if you had a study you could reference that shows no performance improvements for schools with a uniform dress code. I only ask because you seemed so sure that there wasn't any. And I was curious because the practice seems so common outside the US so wondering if there there was a perception of an educational edge by having that policy. Edited February 23, 2021 by WideNine
SoCal Deek Posted February 23, 2021 Posted February 23, 2021 1 hour ago, WideNine said: You seem very keen to argue. Once again, I NEVER said teachers make the schedule. Not sure where your reading comprehension gaps are coming from. And yes, the counselor at my daughter's school did not craft her schedule so based on your information it must have been an administration function done elsewhere. Second, I have looked into the pros and cons of merit-based teaching. It is good to hear your take and learn more about the nuances of what the unions have bargained for in various districts. Works in some places and in others it has not. It is actually in use in some, but it is a small percentage. Sounds like a tool that could improve performance if implemented judiciously and as more of a broad federal guideline rather than the result of patchwork state-by-state district-by-district arbitration agreements. https://www.educationnext.org/in-the-united-states-merit-pay-plans-for-teachers-are-few-and-far-between/ Not cherry-picking, was asking if you had a study you could reference that shows no performance improvements for schools with a uniform dress code. I only ask because you seemed so sure that there wasn't any. And I was curious because the practice seems so common outside the US so wondering if there there was a perception of an educational edge by having that policy. Wide....I’m not trying to argue, but rather inform, if you’re the least bit open to it. As I said my wife works in public schools and I’m a consultant for them on the private sector side. Trust me when I say the biggest distinguishing factor of successful schools isn’t inside the school building at all. It’s at home, where parents either care or don’t about their child’s education. It’s really hard to put that in a study, but I assure you it’s the case. If you want your daughter to do well in school show interest in her studies. Make sure she’s keeping up with homework. Engage with her about the subject matter. It ALL makes a huge difference. There are wildly successful students in the poorest performing schools, but the same is rarely true when the parents aren’t involved, no matter how ‘good’ the school is reported to be. 2
WideNine Posted February 23, 2021 Posted February 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, SoCal Deek said: Wide....I’m not trying to argue, but rather inform, if you’re the least bit open to it. As I said my wife works in public schools and I’m a consultant for them on the private sector side. Trust me when I say the biggest distinguishing factor of successful schools isn’t inside the school building at all. It’s at home, where parents either care or don’t about their child’s education. It’s really hard to put that in a study, but I assure you it’s the case. If you want your daughter to do well in school show interest in her studies. Make sure she’s keeping up with homework. Engage with her about the subject matter. It ALL makes a huge difference. There are wildly successful students in the poorest performing schools, but the same is rarely true when the parents aren’t involved, no matter how ‘good’ the school is reported to be. I agree that if parents have the time and the acumen and speak the language then yes, they can adequately tutor what used to be taught in a classroom. https://www.edutopia.org/article/whats-right-amount-homework In MN my daughter in elementary school had up to 2 hours of homework every night, till I put my foot down and confronted the school. I have a gung-ho humanities teacher that has had up to 5 hours of assignments for my 6th grader. I know because I had to painstakingly work through all of them with my daughter. If her teacher had any clue where she is at academically she would not be assigning what she does in the volume she does. They are disconnected and fairly clueless regarding the educational gaps each student has because they are not actually teaching material in the classroom. They are largely reciting in class then dumping assignments with the expectation that parents can fill the comprehension gaps. Interesting that when I was growing up my parents had little to no involvement with school. They just wanted to see that report card and if there was a problem there were parent/teacher conferences. With both of them working long hours there was little left in the tank at night to tutor me. Edited February 23, 2021 by WideNine 1
reddogblitz Posted February 23, 2021 Posted February 23, 2021 7 hours ago, WideNine said: Another odd difference I have noticed is that many schools abroad also promote uniforms. Uniforms are cheaper than the latest fashions each year and families with less means usually can still afford them. I think they help blur the lines between socioeconomic gaps that can fuel weird cliques and divisive popularity contests. Youth spend less time worrying about how to impress each other over fashion and focus more on studies. I support uniforms. I wore uniforms to school for grammar and high schools. As far as cliques go though, kids figure out different ways to wear them to separate their clique from the others.
Big Blitz Posted February 23, 2021 Posted February 23, 2021 Un. Freaking. Believable. They are so terrified of President DeSantis.
SoCal Deek Posted February 23, 2021 Posted February 23, 2021 10 hours ago, reddogblitz said: I support uniforms. I wore uniforms to school for grammar and high schools. As far as cliques go though, kids figure out different ways to wear them to separate their clique from the others. Your comment about cliques is 100% correct. Any school resource officer will back that up. However, the uniforms do greatly level the fashion playing field...if that’s the goal. 1
Doc Posted February 23, 2021 Posted February 23, 2021 11 hours ago, Big Blitz said: Un. Freaking. Believable. They are so terrified of President DeSantis. The MSM is a joke and bordering on criminal. 1 1
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