Eli Manning: Will He Get Into Canton?

[Happy]

21 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

I agree with this, but people will see (2 SB wins, one against the undefeated Pats***), and he eventually gets in.  

 

Is there a QB with 2 SB wins who is not in the HOF?  

 

 

 

went to 4 straight SB's.  Good other numbers.  Not sure how he doesn't get in.  He beat Marino, Elway, Moon,  etc. to make those SB's.  

 

Eli probably will get in, but I don't think he should.  See Deion Sanders' quote I referenced above.

 

Jim Kelly went to four SBs and couldn't win one.  While four in a row is unprecedented, even to this day, he didn't change the game or was particularly dominant at the position.  If Jim won one SB, a better argument could be made.  Jim was very good and I admire his toughness, but he didn't define or redefine the position, like Dan Marino did.  Marino was today's high powered, big number QB before the era existed, and there wasn't anywhere near the type of rule protection that today's QB receives.

[auburnbillsbacker]

He was slightly above average in my opinion and should not be in the Hall of Fame.  I don't think he should even make the cut to 25.  He will get voted in however, because of the Giants 2 Super Bowl wins.  

[prissythecat]

Eli had at best a slightly above average career as a QB.    His brother Peyton, on the other hand ,  had a superlative career .

 

Those saying that Eli deserves to  be in Hall of Fame based on Superbowl wins should ask if QBs like Mark Rypien should be in the Hall of Fame because of a great run or two in the post season

[Buffalo Barbarian]

He's a HOF QB as much as Trent Dilfer

 

 

[K-9]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Not really true about Kelly. Rating+ (scroll down) measures how you stand against the league-average for QB play in that season, with 100 being average. Kelly was above average (and well above average a couple of times) every season except for his final season: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm.

 

Manning, who SHOULD ABSOLUTELY get in, was above average 8 times and below average 8 times. He was never well above average: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm.

 

It's a great measure because it allows you to get past comparing QBs from different eras. An 85 rating in the early 1980s was very good. Today, it puts you near the bottom.

Great points, all. I’ve been arguing for years that while it’s a bad idea to compare players across eras, you can compare their relative standings to their peers across eras. 

[BarleyNY]

Dude kept the Brady and the Cheatriots from getting two more SBs.  Why are some here arguing against him?  I’ll always think well of him for those two games. 

 

Seriously though, the dude balled out in the most critical times of the most important games in his career.  Ice water in his veins.  That is why he has those two rings and it deserves respect.  He should be in.

Edited January 23, 2020 by BarleyNY

[mjt328]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

None of that is required for HOF entry.

 

There are no "requirements" for Hall of Fame entry.

My standard is the player being the BEST OF THE BEST during the majority of his playing career.

Eli Manning was a good quarterback.  But not in that category.

 

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

He was top 5 passer 3 different years.

 

Based on what?  Touchdowns?  Passing yards?  Passer rating?

 

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

He is top 10 all time in yards, attempts, completions, TDs, game winning drives.

 

Like I said in my original post... I don't care what a guy's final stats compile to be, especially when he played 16 full years during the most pass-happy era in the history of the NFL.  If you go by a season-by-season basis (comparing him against his counterparts in the same playing era), he was extremely average.

 

Just looking at yardage, Matt Ryan is already Top 10 and may be Top 5 before his career is over.  He is not Hall of Fame worthy.  Matthew Stafford is already Top 20 and could be in the Top 10 when he retires.  Not Hall of Fame worthy.  Guys like Carson Palmer and Vinny Testaverde are in the Top 15 currently.

 

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

He is 8-4 in the playoffs.  His team rode his fantastic postseason play to 2 SB's where he was MVP.

 

Team accomplishment.

 

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

He did all of this playing with a slew of mediocre or injury prone or headcase (some were all 3) players on Offense that wandered in and out of NY.

 

If he doesn't deserve to go in then they will have to start throwing some guys out.  Elway's YPA/YPG/completion %--all worse.  Kelly's numbers?  As "average".  Those are 2 guys who played into the mid to late 90's, not the "70's and 80's".   8 SB appearances between them.  2 rings. 1 MVP.  Why are they in there?  Elway in his prime could not win a SB.  Neither could Kelly.  Elway lead the league in passing one single year.  His top 10 all time yards come as a result of, you guessed it, 11 (out of 16) years of top 10 passing.  Manning had 7 out 16 in the top 10. 

 

Let's turn our attention to Troy Aikman.  YPG/YPA/TD/INT ratio worse than Mannings.  Top 4 passer once in his career (12 years, which ended in 2000, not the 80's) and only 4 seasons in the top 10.  Was his passing offense "feared" or "dominating"?

 

Again.  These guys played in a totally different era, with completely different rules.

If you go back into the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was absolutely no doubt who the BEST OF THE BEST quarterbacks were.  Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway and Joe Montana.  To a lesser extent, you can also argue Warren Moon.  Their accomplishments were not just about rings, not just about stats, but about domination at the position for their era.  

 

You aren't getting an argument for me about Troy Aikman.  He shouldn't have been a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and was borderline to make it at all.  

He was overrated because of Super Bowl rings and the Cowboys team success.  Teams feared Emmitt Smith and the Dallas O-Line.  Not the quarterback.

 

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

These arguments against E Manning as a HOFer just self destruct.

 

Without a ring, Rivers doesn't get in.

 

Phillip Rivers was better than Eli Manning, but I wouldn't put him into the Hall of Fame either.

 

The current QBs that I would put into the Hall of Fame on first ballot are Tom Brady and Drew Brees.  I think Ben Roethlisberger deserves to eventually make it (his overall game was way more dominating than either Rivers or Manning), along with Aaron Rodgers.

 

[mjt328]

5 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

there wasn’t a point in his career (especially those 4 pro-bowl seasons) he was considered one of the top QBs in the league. ? 

 

The Pro-Bowl is a popularity contest.  Who cares?

 

Eli Manning was consistently a Top 10 during the peak of his career.  I'll concede that.

But I would never put him in the same category as the elite guys of his era (Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees).  In my opinion, he's a few notches below the next tier of guys (Ben Roethlisberger, Aaron Rodgers, Kurt Warner) that are borderline Hall of Fame quality.

 

I would even put him below other guys I also wouldn't put in the Hall of Fame (Donovan McNabb, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers).  At best, he's in the same discussion as Matt Ryan, Carson Palmer, Matthew Stafford, etc.

 

5 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

No He’s not An all time elite QB. just like Kelly, Elway, Bradshaw, Aikman, Warner weren’t. 
 

there are plenty of busts in canton for guys that may not have been #1 at their position any given year but played at a high level for many, many years. 

 

Never argued that a guy needed to be all-time elite to be in the Hall of Fame.

But I think he needed to be elite during the time he played.  I would certainly place Kelly, Elway and Warner in that category.  I think Aikman was overrated, and I'm too young to have watched Bradshaw play.

 

Playing at a "high level for many years" is not good enough.  Those guys are worthy of having their team retire a jersey.

The HOF should be reserved for the All-Pros of the All-Pros.

 

 

[Like A Mofo]

Its very simple.

 

If Eli Manning's last name was say, Eli Losman, he will not go to the HOF.

The end.

[BringBackOrton]

21 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

There are no "requirements" for Hall of Fame entry.

My standard is the player being the BEST OF THE BEST during the majority of his playing career.

Eli Manning was a good quarterback.  But not in that category.

 

 

Based on what?  Touchdowns?  Passing yards?  Passer rating?

 

 

Like I said in my original post... I don't care what a guy's final stats compile to be, especially when he played 16 full years during the most pass-happy era in the history of the NFL.  If you go by a season-by-season basis (comparing him against his counterparts in the same playing era), he was extremely average.

 

Just looking at yardage, Matt Ryan is already Top 10 and may be Top 5 before his career is over.  He is not Hall of Fame worthy.  Matthew Stafford is already Top 20 and could be in the Top 10 when he retires.  Not Hall of Fame worthy.  Guys like Carson Palmer and Vinny Testaverde are in the Top 15 currently.

 

 

Team accomplishment.

 

 

Again.  These guys played in a totally different era, with completely different rules.

If you go back into the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was absolutely no doubt who the BEST OF THE BEST quarterbacks were.  Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway and Joe Montana.  To a lesser extent, you can also argue Warren Moon.  Their accomplishments were not just about rings, not just about stats, but about domination at the position for their era.  

 

You aren't getting an argument for me about Troy Aikman.  He shouldn't have been a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and was borderline to make it at all.  

He was overrated because of Super Bowl rings and the Cowboys team success.  Teams feared Emmitt Smith and the Dallas O-Line.  Not the quarterback.

 

 

Phillip Rivers was better than Eli Manning, but I wouldn't put him into the Hall of Fame either.

 

The current QBs that I would put into the Hall of Fame on first ballot are Tom Brady and Drew Brees.  I think Ben Roethlisberger deserves to eventually make it (his overall game was way more dominating than either Rivers or Manning), along with Aaron Rodgers.

 

The story of the NFL can’t be told without Ei Manning. He’s going to be in the HoF.

[Artem Lipatov]

I don't understand the guys who say he rode good defence to get 2 rings. He led comeback drives in last minutes of both Super Bowls against the most dominant dynasties ever and against GOAT.

Brady and Bellichic record in SB vs other QBS 6-1

Brady and Bellichic record in SB vs Eli 0-2

 

I don't care his stats in regular seasons games. 

The guy was the best in the league then it meant the most.

Ant it wasn't fluke. He repeated it twice.

 

1st ballot HOFer 

 

[Mr. WEO]

40 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

There are no "requirements" for Hall of Fame entry.

My standard is the player being the BEST OF THE BEST during the majority of his playing career.

Eli Manning was a good quarterback.  But not in that category.

 

 

Based on what?  Touchdowns?  Passing yards?  Passer rating?

 

 

Like I said in my original post... I don't care what a guy's final stats compile to be, especially when he played 16 full years during the most pass-happy era in the history of the NFL.  If you go by a season-by-season basis (comparing him against his counterparts in the same playing era), he was extremely average.

 

Just looking at yardage, Matt Ryan is already Top 10 and may be Top 5 before his career is over.  He is not Hall of Fame worthy.  Matthew Stafford is already Top 20 and could be in the Top 10 when he retires.  Not Hall of Fame worthy.  Guys like Carson Palmer and Vinny Testaverde are in the Top 15 currently.

 

 

Team accomplishment.

 

 

Again.  These guys played in a totally different era, with completely different rules.

If you go back into the late 1980s and early 1990s, there was absolutely no doubt who the BEST OF THE BEST quarterbacks were.  Jim Kelly, Dan Marino, John Elway and Joe Montana.  To a lesser extent, you can also argue Warren Moon.  Their accomplishments were not just about rings, not just about stats, but about domination at the position for their era.  

 

You aren't getting an argument for me about Troy Aikman.  He shouldn't have been a first-ballot Hall of Famer, and was borderline to make it at all.  

He was overrated because of Super Bowl rings and the Cowboys team success.  Teams feared Emmitt Smith and the Dallas O-Line.  Not the quarterback.

 

 

Phillip Rivers was better than Eli Manning, but I wouldn't put him into the Hall of Fame either.

 

The current QBs that I would put into the Hall of Fame on first ballot are Tom Brady and Drew Brees.  I think Ben Roethlisberger deserves to eventually make it (his overall game was way more dominating than either Rivers or Manning), along with Aaron Rodgers.

 

 

If the HOF is only for the "best of the best for the majority of their playing career" the vast majority of the inductees are going to have to get thrown out immediately.

 

Top passer in total yards, the most commonly referred to stat for such.  In that regard, he was not simply average-he was top 10 for 7 seasons.  He was also top 10 in TD passes for 10 seasons.

 

Kelly was not one of the "BEST OF THE BEST" QB's of his time (he was 3rd in yards for 2 seasons, 3rd in TDs once))--especially of you are going to compare his stats with Marino, Elway and Montana or Moon.  Better toss Andre Reed out too--he was never better than 5th in yards receiving ("of his time").   Thurman can stay though.

 

What is Rivers better at than Eli?  Winning playoff games?  Rivers is a bum when it counts.  If he had 2 rings, he would be walking into the HOF for sure.

 

Rodgers, Manning, Rivers, Roethlesberger will all have been playing for roughly the same amount of time/games (when they are all done), and will have had very similar total yards, passing TDs, YPG....but Eli Manning's stats are "extremely average"? 

 

By your logic, Rodgers, as is, would never get in and neither would Big Ben if he walked away today. 

 

Eli is going in because he earned entry.  In an era of long playing QBs, he was exceptionally durable and compiled the stats that are similar to his top cohort----and won 2 SBs with great playoff performances. 

 

 

59 minutes ago, Like A Mofo said:

Its very simple.

 

If Eli Manning's last name was say, Eli Losman, he will not go to the HOF.

The end.

 

yeah, that's pretty simple all right....

[Augie]

I think of first ballot guys as being All Time Greats. Brady, LT (despite his “issues”), Reggie White, Jerry Rice, etc. I’m surprised by how many first ballot votes there are. Not saying anyone is wrong, but other than the two SB’s, his career is pretty mediocre. Long, but not special. The two SB’s will get him in eventually, I’m guessing. 

[3rdand12]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:39 PM, HOUSE said:

The same year as Chris Kelsay

 

 

 

Both players were "middlin'" during their careers.
 steady. not great. steady.

and one of them was well overpaid and kept on too roster too long.
oh wait

 Thats both of em

[Another Fan]

I know some will say he was a stat compiler but I always felt an underrated characteristic of Eli was how durable he was.  I might be mistaken but I think from 2004-until this year he didn't miss any starts?  That's pretty impressive.  Just think how many starting QB's the Bills have had during that time period.  

 

Perhaps not a first balloter but he deserves to get in.   That is a BFD to me to win 2 Super Bowls as the MVP.  

Edited January 23, 2020 by Another Fan

[RyanC883]

On 1/23/2020 at 1:54 PM, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Eli probably will get in, but I don't think he should.  See Deion Sanders' quote I referenced above.

 

Jim Kelly went to four SBs and couldn't win one.  While four in a row is unprecedented, even to this day, he didn't change the game or was particularly dominant at the position.  If Jim won one SB, a better argument could be made.  Jim was very good and I admire his toughness, but he didn't define or redefine the position, like Dan Marino did.  Marino was today's high powered, big number QB before the era existed, and there wasn't anywhere near the type of rule protection that today's QB receives.

 

I like the friendly debate over Eli and Kelly.  I think the K-Gun offense was pretty revolutionary at the time?  Called his own plays a lot I believe?  I do agree that Marino was better (and had worse weapons than Kelly).  

 

 

[GreggTX]

He wasn't nearly good enough to even be considered. I think the HOF would diminish its reputation by letting Eli Manning in. I'm sure they can find many players more deserving of the honor.

[Doc Brown]

On 1/23/2020 at 6:57 PM, Another Fan said:

I know some will say he was a stat compiler but I always felt an underrated characteristic of Eli was how durable he was.  I might be mistaken but I think from 2004-until this year he didn't miss any starts?  That's pretty impressive.  Just think how many starting QB's the Bills have had during that time period.  

 

Perhaps not a first balloter but he deserves to get in.   That is a BFD to me to win 2 Super Bowls as the MVP.  

His 210 consecutive start streak was snapped in 2017 when McAdoo decided to replace him with GENO FRICKEN SMITH.  Being benched for Geno Smith might be the strongest argument against Eli being inducted.

[SoTier]

I think that Eli will make the HOF, possibly even on the first ballot, because he came up big when it counted most. 

 

Winning big games and making clutch plays in big games counts more than stats.  Eli came up big repeatedly in the Giants two Super Bowl runs.  In 2007, he literally carried the Giants' offense, throwing for almost 5000 yards, one of the few wild card teams to win a Super Bowl.  In both Super Bowl runs, the Giants won the NFC Conference Championship in OT.  In both his Super Bowls, Eli made key passes to lead his team to the Lombardi.

 

[Doc Brown]

On 1/23/2020 at 6:25 PM, Augie said:

I think of first ballot guys as being All Time Greats. Brady, LT (despite his “issues”), Reggie White, Jerry Rice, etc. I’m surprised by how many first ballot votes there are. Not saying anyone is wrong, but other than the two SB’s, his career is pretty mediocre. Long, but not special. The two SB’s will get him in eventually, I’m guessing. 

I agree.  The first ballot should just be for players where you don't have to think twice.  Not having TO get in on the first ballot was embarrassing for the HOF voters.  If Eli gets in on the first ballot it will downgrade the prestige of that special class.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Doc Brown