Mr. WEO Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 17 minutes ago, eball said: @Mr. WEO don't get your panties in a wad. I didn't say Eli doesn't belong, I gave an opinion as to how I think the HOF has changed over the years. Eli was never really considered a superstar but he had two tremendous playoff runs -- and he hung around for a very long time. He'll get in. You said the HOF had morphed into the Hall of Longevity and named Manning as an example, ignoring all of the facts pertaining to his career but one--the number of seasons he played. Good thing the HOF doesn't do that when it votes. He will get in because his work has earned it compared to the "superstars" who went before him. The HOF has not changed if it admits Eli. It would be completely consistent. Outside of Buffalo, Jim Kelly is famous for one achievement--being the QB on 4 successive SB losing teams. Is he in because he is a "superstar"?
eball Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 @Mr. WEO -- dude, you just like to argue. Not playing.
mjt328 Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 Absolutely not. He was a good/above average QB, who was propped-up (even from his college days) because of the Manning name. His only HOF-worthy accomplishment was winning two Super Bowls, which was a team accomplishment and not just because of him. If anyone has a reason he is worthy (besides the rings), then I would absolutely LOVE to hear it. In every way, he was middle of the pack. For every single one of his 16 years in the NFL. He never had a single wow season, and was never close to discussion as league MVP. His teams were never dominating in passing offense. Teams did not fear playing the Giants because of him. There wasn't a point during his career that anyone considered Eli Manning to be a Top 5 quarterback in the league. Supporters are going to make an argument for Manning, simply because he played 16 years in the NFL (almost never missing a game) and when everything is totaled-up, his stats will compare favorably to other Hall of Fame Quarterbacks from the 70's and 80's. But despite playing in a pass-heavy league his entire career, his AVERAGE stats were as follows: 60.3% completion percentage (average) 7.02 yards per attempt (average) 241.6 yards per game (average) 1.55 touchdowns per game (average) 1.50 touchdown/interception ratio (below average) He's not a Hall of Fame player, and putting him in will dilute the accomplishment for everyone else.
Ridgewaycynic2013 Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 3 hours ago, Gugny said: I'm sure they'll want Brady to go in by himself. That *****. That day be declared a federal holiday, and the Pope will celebrate a Mass in observation of the event. 5 conditional draft picks to the ‘you know who’s’ will get Goodell a papal audience.
MAJBobby Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Gugny said: Do you think Eli will get into the Hall of Fame? Yes he will eventually, going to have to wait IMO 8 minutes ago, mjt328 said: Absolutely not. He was a good/above average QB, who was propped-up (even from his college days) because of the Manning name. His only HOF-worthy accomplishment was winning two Super Bowls, which was a team accomplishment and not just because of him. If anyone has a reason he is worthy (besides the rings), then I would absolutely LOVE to hear it. In every way, he was middle of the pack. For every single one of his 16 years in the NFL. He never had a single wow season, and was never close to discussion as league MVP. His teams were never dominating in passing offense. Teams did not fear playing the Giants because of him. There wasn't a point during his career that anyone considered Eli Manning to be a Top 5 quarterback in the league. Supporters are going to make an argument for Manning, simply because he played 16 years in the NFL (almost never missing a game) and when everything is totaled-up, his stats will compare favorably to other Hall of Fame Quarterbacks from the 70's and 80's. But despite playing in a pass-heavy league his entire career, his AVERAGE stats were as follows: 60.3% completion percentage (average) 7.02 yards per attempt (average) 241.6 yards per game (average) 1.55 touchdowns per game (average) 1.50 touchdown/interception ratio (below average) He's not a Hall of Fame player, and putting him in will dilute the accomplishment for everyone else. Can make the same Stat Arguments with Jim Kelly, just without the Rings Edited January 23, 2020 by MAJBobby 1
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: Yes he will eventually, going to have to wait IMO Can make the same Stat Arguments with Jim Kelly, just without the Rings Not really true about Kelly. Rating+ (scroll down) measures how you stand against the league-average for QB play in that season, with 100 being average. Kelly was above average (and well above average a couple of times) every season except for his final season: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KellJi00.htm. Manning, who SHOULD ABSOLUTELY get in, was above average 8 times and below average 8 times. He was never well above average: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm. It's a great measure because it allows you to get past comparing QBs from different eras. An 85 rating in the early 1980s was very good. Today, it puts you near the bottom. Edited January 23, 2020 by dave mcbride 2
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 10 hours ago, Mr. WEO said: Massive stat accumulator who rode his D through the playoffs in his 2 SB winning runs? Fellas, Peyton Manning already IS in the HOF.... ELI Manning is the one who was a 2 time SB MVP. Here's some more: Eli's 2 SB winning runs: 15 TDs, 2 INTs, almost 2100 yards. Peyton"s 2 SB winning runs (with 2 teams): 5TDs, 8 INT, under 1600 yards. Eli Manning belongs in the HOF. Pretty simple. Also in addition to those two 2 SB runs he won MVP in a game competing against TB. people saying he just played a long time to accumulate stats and therefore wasn’t great should try and explain Jerome Bettis, Bruce Smith, Favre, Emmitt Smith, Etc. longevity matters a lot. 1
That's No Moon Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 11 hours ago, KD in CA said: As for Namath, you have to recognize not only his impact on the critical era (NFL-AFL merger), but also his role as a pioneer in the early days of marketing via athletes. He was one of the guys who paved the way for OJ, Jordan, Woods, James, etc. in what today is a many billion dollar business. You can't tell the history of the NFL without Joe Willie. I get that. He's in the HoF because he was marketable and well-known not because he did much of anything. He's the Kardashian of the HoF
Happy Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001098575/article/will-eli-manning-be-inducted-in-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame Good article on the subject, comprised mostly of opinions/takes from NFLN player-analysts. Most seem to think Eli will get in based primarily on the two SB wins against N.E. Here is my favorite take, and it is from Deion Sanders: "The Pro Football Hall of Fame is not what it used to be Honestly, I'm not so sure what being a Hall of Famer means anymore. Football immortality used to be reserved for players who redefined their position, made a big impact on the game or dominated their position for a period of time. The way the Hall is trending now, Eli will get in most likely because he won two Super Bowls. It won't be because he embodied any of those three points while in the league. It is what it is, man." 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 48 minutes ago, mjt328 said: Absolutely not. He was a good/above average QB, who was propped-up (even from his college days) because of the Manning name. His only HOF-worthy accomplishment was winning two Super Bowls, which was a team accomplishment and not just because of him. If anyone has a reason he is worthy (besides the rings), then I would absolutely LOVE to hear it. In every way, he was middle of the pack. For every single one of his 16 years in the NFL. He never had a single wow season, and was never close to discussion as league MVP. His teams were never dominating in passing offense. Teams did not fear playing the Giants because of him. There wasn't a point during his career that anyone considered Eli Manning to be a Top 5 quarterback in the league. Supporters are going to make an argument for Manning, simply because he played 16 years in the NFL (almost never missing a game) and when everything is totaled-up, his stats will compare favorably to other Hall of Fame Quarterbacks from the 70's and 80's. But despite playing in a pass-heavy league his entire career, his AVERAGE stats were as follows: 60.3% completion percentage (average) 7.02 yards per attempt (average) 241.6 yards per game (average) 1.55 touchdowns per game (average) 1.50 touchdown/interception ratio (below average) He's not a Hall of Fame player, and putting him in will dilute the accomplishment for everyone else. there wasn’t a point in his career (especially those 4 pro-bowl seasons) he was considered one of the top QBs in the league. ? No He’s not An all time elite QB. just like Kelly, Elway, Bradshaw, Aikman, Warner weren’t. there are plenty of busts in canton for guys that may not have been #1 at their position any given year but played at a high level for many, many years.
Mr. WEO Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, eball said: @Mr. WEO -- dude, you just like to argue. Not playing. nah, not really. Just pointing out why I think you're wrong.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001098575/article/will-eli-manning-be-inducted-in-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame Good article on the subject, comprised mostly of opinions/takes from NFLN player-analysts. Most seem to think Eli will get in based primarily on the two SB wins against N.E. Here is my favorite take, and it is from Deion Sanders: "The Pro Football Hall of Fame is not what it used to be Honestly, I'm not so sure what being a Hall of Famer means anymore. Football immortality used to be reserved for players who redefined their position, made a big impact on the game or dominated their position for a period of time. The way the Hall is trending now, Eli will get in most likely because he won two Super Bowls. It won't be because he embodied any of those three points while in the league. It is what it is, man." yep. Deon is right. And that’s why Eli is definitely getting in. I’ll say it, Andre Reed Of whom I was a big fan, Had a far less spectacular career. There are 20 more that come to mind as well.
Happy Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: yep. Deon is right. And that’s why Eli is definitely getting in. I’ll say it, Andre Reed Of whom I was a big fan, Had a far less spectacular career. There are 20 more that come to mind as well. While we're at it...Jim Kelly. Went to four in a row and choked. I like the guy and admire his toughness but shouldn't be in the HOF.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: While we're at it...Jim Kelly. Went to four in a row and choked. I like the guy and admire his toughness but shouldn't be in the HOF. yep- same anti Eli argument applies. And he was first ballot. Thurman was a more elite RB than Kelly was a QB in my opinion (Blasphemy I know) that’s why Eli is going to get in. he just needs Brees, Rivers, Ben, Brady to keep playing a year or two more, or it might be a problem for him Edited January 23, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood
Mr. WEO Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, mjt328 said: Absolutely not. He was a good/above average QB, who was propped-up (even from his college days) because of the Manning name. His only HOF-worthy accomplishment was winning two Super Bowls, which was a team accomplishment and not just because of him. If anyone has a reason he is worthy (besides the rings), then I would absolutely LOVE to hear it. In every way, he was middle of the pack. For every single one of his 16 years in the NFL. He never had a single wow season, and was never close to discussion as league MVP. His teams were never dominating in passing offense. Teams did not fear playing the Giants because of him. There wasn't a point during his career that anyone considered Eli Manning to be a Top 5 quarterback in the league. Supporters are going to make an argument for Manning, simply because he played 16 years in the NFL (almost never missing a game) and when everything is totaled-up, his stats will compare favorably to other Hall of Fame Quarterbacks from the 70's and 80's. But despite playing in a pass-heavy league his entire career, his AVERAGE stats were as follows: 60.3% completion percentage (average) 7.02 yards per attempt (average) 241.6 yards per game (average) 1.55 touchdowns per game (average) 1.50 touchdown/interception ratio (below average) He's not a Hall of Fame player, and putting him in will dilute the accomplishment for everyone else. None of that is required for HOF entry. He was top 5 passer 3 different years. He is top 10 all time in yards, attempts, completions, TDs, game winning drives. He is 8-4 in the playoffs. His team rode his fantastic postseason play to 2 SB's where he was MVP. He did all of this playing with a slew of mediocre or injury prone or headcase (some were all 3) players on Offense that wandered in and out of NY. If he doesn't deserve to go in then they will have to start throwing some guys out. Elway's YPA/YPG/completion %--all worse. Kelly's numbers? As "average". Those are 2 guys who played into the mid to late 90's, not the "70's and 80's". 8 SB appearances between them. 2 rings. 1 MVP. Why are they in there? Elway in his prime could not win a SB. Neither could Kelly. Elway lead the league in passing one single year. His top 10 all time yards come as a result of, you guessed it, 11 (out of 16) years of top 10 passing. Manning had 7 out 16 in the top 10. Let's turn our attention to Troy Aikman. YPG/YPA/TD/INT ratio worse than Mannings. Top 4 passer once in his career (12 years, which ended in 2000, not the 80's) and only 4 seasons in the top 10. Was his passing offense "feared" or "dominating"? These arguments against E Manning as a HOFer just self destruct. 38 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: yep- same anti Eli argument applies. And he was first ballot. Thurman was a more elite RB than Kelly was a QB in my opinion (Blasphemy I know) that’s why Eli is going to get in. he just needs Brees, Rivers, Ben, Brady to keep playing a year or two more, or it might be a problem for him Without a ring, Rivers doesn't get in.
Mr. WEO Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001098575/article/will-eli-manning-be-inducted-in-the-pro-football-hall-of-fame Good article on the subject, comprised mostly of opinions/takes from NFLN player-analysts. Most seem to think Eli will get in based primarily on the two SB wins against N.E. Here is my favorite take, and it is from Deion Sanders: "The Pro Football Hall of Fame is not what it used to be Honestly, I'm not so sure what being a Hall of Famer means anymore. Football immortality used to be reserved for players who redefined their position, made a big impact on the game or dominated their position for a period of time. The way the Hall is trending now, Eli will get in most likely because he won two Super Bowls. It won't be because he embodied any of those three points while in the league. It is what it is, man." Come on Deion. You can go through any class and find a guy who didn't meet those criteria so why bring them up for E Manning? He took 2 mediocre teams to 2 SB victories for one of the most mediocre organizations of the past 15 years. Switch teams with his brother and what would have happened? Eli made a lot more out of what he was given to play with in the playoffs than his brother did.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: None of that is required for HOF entry. He was top 5 passer 3 different years. He is top 10 all time in yards, attempts, completions, TDs, game winning drives. He is 8-4 in the playoffs. His team rode his fantastic postseason play to 2 SB's where he was MVP. He did all of this playing with a slew of mediocre or injury prone or headcase (some were all 3) players on Offense that wandered in and out of NY. If he doesn't deserve to go in then they will have to start throwing some guys out. Elway's YPA/YPG/completion %--all worse. Kelly's numbers? As "average". Those are 2 guys who played into the mid to late 90's, not the "70's and 80's". 8 SB appearances between them. 2 rings. 1 MVP. Why are they in there? Elway in his prime could not win a SB. Neither could Kelly. Elway lead the league in passing one single year. His top 10 all time yards come as a result of, you guessed it, 11 (out of 16) years of top 10 passing. Manning had 7 out 16 in the top 10. Let's turn our attention to Troy Aikman. YPG/YPA/TD/INT ratio worse than Mannings. Top 4 passer once in his career (12 years, which ended in 2000, not the 80's) and only 4 seasons in the top 10. Was his passing offense "feared" or "dominating"? These arguments against E Manning as a HOFer just self destruct. Without a ring, Rivers doesn't get in. could be. To me he's Dan Fouts or Marino type. the real matter is when he becomes eligible vs rest of the field. Like eluded yo elsewhere, the hall of fame has a lot of grey area around greatness, after you get past the clear cut best. Edited January 23, 2020 by Over 29 years of fanhood 1
Happy Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Come on Deion. You can go through any class and find a guy who didn't meet those criteria so why bring them up for E Manning? He took 2 mediocre teams to 2 SB victories for one of the most mediocre organizations of the past 15 years. Switch teams with his brother and what would have happened? Eli made a lot more out of what he was given to play with in the playoffs than his brother did. I'd just add that those Giant teams had great defensive lines. This was the key to their victories.
Mr. WEO Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said: could be. To me he's Dan Fouts or Marino type. the real matter is when he be one eligible vs rest of the field. Like eluded yo elsewhere, the hall of fame has a lot of grey area around greatness, after you get past the clear cut best. Marino had no rings, but he was light years ahead of Kelly and Elway--he truly changed the position. He was having 4500-5000 yard seasons over 30 years ago! He stopped playing 20 years ago and he is still #5 all time passing leader and TDs. It's astounding. 120 more TDs than Elway. 183 more than Kelly. He Brought on the "modern" passing game. 2 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said: I'd just add that those Giant teams had great defensive lines. This was the key to their victories. The 2011 D ranked 25th/27th in points/yards allowed. Overall awful against the pass. Mediocre vs the run. 2007 was 17th/7th.
RyanC883 Posted January 23, 2020 Posted January 23, 2020 19 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said: Nope. He beat the Patriots in the SB twice, but that was primarily because of their defense. Eli was good, but not great like his brother. I agree with this, but people will see (2 SB wins, one against the undefeated Pats***), and he eventually gets in. Is there a QB with 2 SB wins who is not in the HOF? 1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said: While we're at it...Jim Kelly. Went to four in a row and choked. I like the guy and admire his toughness but shouldn't be in the HOF. went to 4 straight SB's. Good other numbers. Not sure how he doesn't get in. He beat Marino, Elway, Moon, etc. to make those SB's.
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