Do you think the Bills are going to make a big run at Clowney?

[thebandit27]

12 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

All DL are rotational in our D, and rightfully so. Keep em fresh.

 

Rotate Yannick out and Shaq in on running downs.

 

And agreed with the previous poster, but signing Yannick and re-signing Shaq you are planning long term for when Hughes is inevitably released in 2021.

 

If Beane does this right, our DL next year looks like:

 

DE: Hughes/Rookie

DT1tech: Harrison/Taylor(or Liuget)

DT3tech: JPhillips/Oliver

DE: Yannick/Shaq

 

That's a Super Bowl caliber DL if I've ever seen one.

So you’re cutting Star for the $2.3M savings and then signing all of Shaq/Ngakoue/Phillips? I mean, yeah, it could be done, but you’ve probably got $45M tied up in the DL at that point and have likely spent $40M of FA money on the DL. I think we can do better 

[MJS]

7 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Yes, Tre is a superstar. That doesn’t mean that this team doesn’t sorely lack them.

 

Looking around the league, most teams have at least one. We don’t need to go through the exercise of naming them by team, as I’m sure you know that already. 
 

Point being, this team needs players that scare opponents.

 

And yes, FA Superstars win Super Bowls. Every year in fact. There’s a reason that NE gave big money to Gilmore and a stable of RBs. There’s a reason that Philly signed Alshon Jeffery and Michael Bennett. Look at this year’s finalists: SF gave huge money to Dee Ford and Tevin Coleman (and also traded for Sanders); KC gave a massive contract to Frank Clark a year after breaking the bank for Sammy. FAs fill immediate needs; why wouldn’t you want a WR1 or a top-end EDGE rusher if you can’t get one without giving up a draft pick?

 

And I’m sorry, but if you don’t think that an additional 13 players on the roster comprised of guys like Brown, Beasley, Roberts, Morse, Nsekhe, Feliciano, Long, and Yeldon—that’s 5 starters, a solid backup, and 2 specialists—is a massive difference in roster volume and quality, then I’m not sure what to say to be honest.

 

The team has $120M in space next season. They can easily spend $80M of that on FA and draft pick contracts and still have plenty of room to sign all of Tre, Dawkins, and Milano. There’s absolutely no reason to pinch pennies. They got value with quantity last year; now is the time to get high quality and raise the star talent level on the team.

I agree 1,000%

 

This is a solid team all around. We even have pretty good depth at a lot of positions. What we lack is superstars. We have Tre White and that's all. But I do think we have some candidates that could turn into elites: Edmunds, Oliver, Allen, and Singletary. If one or two of those guys become elite players, we're golden, especially if one of them is Allen.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:41 PM, NewEra said:

“The original person” lol.  The VERY FIRST

He’d pay 18 fosho

 

 

...interesting......I just personally have my doubts.....

[DrDawkinstein]

18 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

So you’re cutting Star for the $2.3M savings and then signing all of Shaq/Ngakoue/Phillips? I mean, yeah, it could be done, but you’ve probably got $45M tied up in the DL at that point and have likely spent $40M of FA money on the DL. I think we can do better 

 

Cutting Star and Murphy so saving more like $9M total. And yeah, $45M-50M (25% of total cap) tied up in the trenches. Where better to spend? I'm more than happy dedicate 25% of total cap to DL and 25% to OL. Spend half our money in the trenches where every game is won or lost, and build from there.

 

Where would you rather spend the money in order to do better? Our QB is still on his rookie contract for a few more years so that would be the only place left that requires huge money. Still plenty left over right now to bring in playmakers at skill positions on both sides of the ball.

 

But start in the trenches.

[thebandit27]

32 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Cutting Star and Murphy so saving more like $9M total. And yeah, $45M-50M (25% of total cap) tied up in the trenches. Where better to spend? I'm more than happy dedicate 25% of total cap to DL and 25% to OL. Spend half our money in the trenches where every game is won or lost, and build from there.

 

Where would you rather spend the money in order to do better? Our QB is still on his rookie contract for a few more years so that would be the only place left that requires huge money. Still plenty left over right now to bring in playmakers at skill positions on both sides of the ball.

 

But start in the trenches.

I think it’s fine to spend money on the DL, but if you’re going to do it, then get an elite pass rusher instead of spending a lot on a few role players. You’ve got Star and Murphy at reasonable contracts now. Why pay them dead money to sign Shaq and Jordan to what will likely be inflated deals?

 

JMO of course.

 

As for my preference, I’m in favor of spending the most money at premier positions. The highest paid positions in the game are QB, LT, WR, pass rusher, and CB. Right now we’re paying zero elite level salaries, and we’ve got a stay on QB for at least 2 seasons. Dawkins and Tre are coming up for new deals, so the LT and CB dominoes will fall. To me, that means you should go out and throw elite salaries at elite players at EDGE and WR.

[Manther]

On 1/21/2020 at 6:06 PM, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...care to offer up some facts with that statement first?....hardly fits the McBeane modis operendi............

That seems like a silly, angry comment.  Do you have any facts on the other end of the argument?  Why do we have to have facts on an opinion  board.  Why don't you help with providing facts instead of policing others.

[njbuff]

How about re-signing Shaq.

 

Sign Conklin

 

Sign Yannick

 

Sign Bradberry

 

Do some bargain basement hunting 

 

Then move on to the draft?

 

I think this could all be done and have plenty of money left over to re-sign White, Dawkins and Milano.

 

What do you think?

[BeastMaster]

Am I the only one who's not high on Ngakoue?

 

He's pretty much a liability if he's not getting to the QB. I want a complete DE, not a poor run defender and tackler who is small 6' 2" 240.

 

Armstead from SF would be a much better target. He's a monster and can do everything. 

 

I'd easily take Clowney or him over Ngakoue. I don't like players that have huge holes in their game, and he's a bad run defender.

[thebandit27]

15 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

Am I the only one who's not high on Ngakoue?

 

He's pretty much a liability if he's not getting to the QB. I want a complete DE, not a poor run defender and tackler who is small 6' 2" 240.

 

Armstead from SF would be a much better target. He's a monster and can do everything. 

 

I'd easily take Clowney or him over Ngakoue. I don't like players that have huge holes in their game, and he's a bad run defender.

Armstead did nothing as a pass rusher until he was the #4 on a DL that featured Bosa, Ford, and Buckner.

 

That’s not exactly a dude with no holes in his game.

[RocCityRoller]

On 1/21/2020 at 5:52 PM, 3rdand12 said:

I do not like Clowney in Buffalo.

 not that opinion should ever set precedent : )

 

But i feel Bills will find a couple edge guys using more than one method.

Drafting is my hope. and sprinkle in some FA.
Depending on Lawson and Murphy.
 

Eyes wides open of course.
is this where Bills splash ?

 should be fun : )

Seems to be the consensus around here.

Care to reiterate why though ?

 

Since I am an original member of the Ngakoue bandwagon I'll chime in.

 

1) Yannick Ngakoue is only 24 years old, he fits the youth replacement going on on the defense. At 24 he is already a producer and is only hitting his prime years. Clowney is only 26, but has significant injuries.

Pair YN with White (25), Edmunds (21) and Oliver (22) and you have young guns that should be corner stones for years at each level of the Defense.

 

2) Like Clowney, he is a natural pass rusher and disruptor. He had 8 sacks, 4 Forced Fumbles this year in a 'down year'

YN was drafted in 2016 and has 37.5 sacks, 13 Forced Fumb, 2 Fum recoveries, 2 INT, 8 PD, and 1 TD

JC was drafted in 2014 and has 32 sacks, 9 Forced Fumb, 6 Fum recoveries, 1 INT, 14 PD and 4 TD

The sack totals are consistent (8, 12, 9.5, 8). He is rounding into a total DE with his tackle numbers increasing every year

considering Clonwey has 2 seasons on Ngakoue I think the production is pretty comparable, and even leans toward Ngakoue.

 

3) Jacksonville is over the cap and probably can not tag him without other cuts that need to free up @16-19 million needed to apply any kind of tag

 

4) He beat out a crowded DE rotation in Jacksonville midway through his rookie year to become a starter. (beat out Dante Fowler )

 

If both cost about the same, I'll take the younger, less injured and just as productive guy.

 

Ngakue suffers from the small market lack of exposure that a lot of Bills fans feel about our own players.

[RocCityRoller]

On 1/23/2020 at 11:14 AM, Dkollidas said:

Ngakoue, not Clowney imo. 

Ngakoue splits time with Hughes in 2020. Hughes is cut after 2020 season.

 

Shaq re-signed, and Bills draft a defensive end in Round 1 or Round 2.

Murphy cut by June 1. 

 

Or you could sign Ngakoue, let Lawson go to FA, non exclusive tender Phillips, keep Murphy as 3rd DE and then fill the third LB hole.

 

Murphy really came on at the end of the season.

[RocCityRoller]

On 1/21/2020 at 10:21 PM, Niagara Dude said:

Yes the need a play maker ,  you cut Kroft/ Murphy/ Smith and that saves the Bills 15 million on the cap.  Murphy is bum who did next to nothing this season 

 

Murphy had 36 tackles, 5 sacks, 2 FF and an INT as a rotational DE.

Hughes had 23 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 0 FF, 0 INT as a starter

Lawson had 32 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 1 FF, 0 INT as a starter

 

to compare with the two DE TBD likes

Ngakoue had 41 tackles, 8 sacks, 4 FF, 1 INT

Clowney had 31 tackles, 3 sacks, 4 FF and 1 INT (13 games)

 

care to back up your 'Murphy is a bum' statement with facts?

[3rdand12]

16 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Since I am an original member of the Ngakoue bandwagon I'll chime in.

 

1) Yannick Ngakoue is only 24 years old, he fits the youth replacement going on on the defense. At 24 he is already a producer and is only hitting his prime years. Clowney is only 26, but has significant injuries.

Pair YN with White (25), Edmunds (21) and Oliver (22) and you have young guns that should be corner stones for years at each level of the Defense.

 

2) Like Clowney, he is a natural pass rusher and disruptor. He had 8 sacks, 4 Forced Fumbles this year in a 'down year'

YN was drafted in 2016 and has 37.5 sacks, 13 Forced Fumb, 2 Fum recoveries, 2 INT, 8 PD, and 1 TD

JC was drafted in 2014 and has 32 sacks, 9 Forced Fumb, 6 Fum recoveries, 1 INT, 14 PD and 4 TD

The sack totals are consistent (8, 12, 9.5, 8). He is rounding into a total DE with his tackle numbers increasing every year

considering Clonwey has 2 seasons on Ngakoue I think the production is pretty comparable, and even leans toward Ngakoue.

 

3) Jacksonville is over the cap and probably can not tag him without other cuts that need to free up @16-19 million needed to apply any kind of tag

 

4) He beat out a crowded DE rotation in Jacksonville midway through his rookie year to become a starter. (beat out Dante Fowler )

 

If both cost about the same, I'll take the younger, less injured and just as productive guy.

 

Ngakue suffers from the small market lack of exposure that a lot of Bills fans feel about our own players.

Lets hope to heck he comes free and moves to Buffalo.

[ColoradoBills]

54 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Murphy had 36 tackles, 5 sacks, 2 FF and an INT as a rotational DE.

Hughes had 23 tackles, 4.5 sacks, 0 FF, 0 INT as a starter

Lawson had 32 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 1 FF, 0 INT as a starter

 

to compare with the two DE TBD likes

Ngakoue had 41 tackles, 8 sacks, 4 FF, 1 INT

Clowney had 31 tackles, 3 sacks, 4 FF and 1 INT (13 games)

 

care to back up your 'Murphy is a bum' statement with facts?

 

Not a Murphy hater but he started all 16 games at DE.

Lawson was the rotational DE.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2019_roster.htm

[RocCityRoller]

1 hour ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Not a Murphy hater but he started all 16 games at DE.

Lawson was the rotational DE.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2019_roster.htm

 

Fair play, I was wrong. BB.com has Trent as starter too. Good point and civil too.

 

Still Murphy was as productive as any DE on the team, and is only a tier down from Clowney and Ngouke by production, like Lawson.

Calling him a bum was a bit harsh, and I think with Lawson not certain, he has a productive role on the team.

 

IMO no need to make holes on the team when they have 90 million to spend.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Since I am an original member of the Ngakoue bandwagon I'll chime in.

 

1) Yannick Ngakoue is only 24 years old, he fits the youth replacement going on on the defense. At 24 he is already a producer and is only hitting his prime years. Clowney is only 26, but has significant injuries.

Pair YN with White (25), Edmunds (21) and Oliver (22) and you have young guns that should be corner stones for years at each level of the Defense.

 

2) Like Clowney, he is a natural pass rusher and disruptor. He had 8 sacks, 4 Forced Fumbles this year in a 'down year'

YN was drafted in 2016 and has 37.5 sacks, 13 Forced Fumb, 2 Fum recoveries, 2 INT, 8 PD, and 1 TD

JC was drafted in 2014 and has 32 sacks, 9 Forced Fumb, 6 Fum recoveries, 1 INT, 14 PD and 4 TD

The sack totals are consistent (8, 12, 9.5, 8). He is rounding into a total DE with his tackle numbers increasing every year

considering Clonwey has 2 seasons on Ngakoue I think the production is pretty comparable, and even leans toward Ngakoue.

 

3) Jacksonville is over the cap and probably can not tag him without other cuts that need to free up @16-19 million needed to apply any kind of tag

 

4) He beat out a crowded DE rotation in Jacksonville midway through his rookie year to become a starter. (beat out Dante Fowler )

 

If both cost about the same, I'll take the younger, less injured and just as productive guy.

 

Ngakue suffers from the small market lack of exposure that a lot of Bills fans feel about our own players.

 

 

They can create enough space to tag him simply by cutting Marcell Dareus...........which they are going to do anyway............very simple.

 

Ngakoue at the very least has great trade value..........late first or early second round maybe?  

 

So it would be crazy stupid for them to not at least apply the tag and work on a trade.......so I am basically considering him a non-entity in this free agent market.

 

AJ Green likely gets tagged too but with it being a great WR class and Green being older and having built up some capital with the organization maybe they give him the chance to get to UFA.

[BeastMaster]

3 hours ago, thebandit27 said:

Armstead did nothing as a pass rusher until he was the #4 on a DL that featured Bosa, Ford, and Buckner.

 

That’s not exactly a dude with no holes in his game.

We have a good line as well.

 

He's shown he can get pressure and be stout against the run, so I disagree that he has holes in his game.

 

Ngokoue will be attacked in the run game. I don't want guys that can't stop the run starting on our Dline, and certainly not at top end money.

[Ga boy]

1 hour ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

Fair play, I was wrong. BB.com has Trent as starter too. Good point and civil too.

 

Still Murphy was as productive as any DE on the team, and is only a tier down from Clowney and Ngouke by production, like Lawson.

Calling him a bum was a bit harsh, and I think with Lawson not certain, he has a productive role on the team.

 

IMO no need to make holes on the team when they have 90 million to spend.

Don’t have the data but my guess is that Trent had fewer snaps.  I agree that Trent came on second half and keeping him will help the process.  Go Bills!

 

[thebandit27]

1 hour ago, BeastMaster said:

We have a good line as well.

 

He's shown he can get pressure and be stout against the run, so I disagree that he has holes in his game.

 

Ngokoue will be attacked in the run game. I don't want guys that can't stop the run starting on our Dline, and certainly not at top end money.

I guess what I’m saying is that it’s hard to see the merit in knocking a guy with 37 sacks over 4 years for not contributing against the run and then advocate for signing a guy with one productive season as a pass rusher which only came once he was surrounded by 3 other first round picks along the DL.

 

I would be hesitant to give Armstead the premier pass rush money he may want because I don’t have confidence that he can perform anywhere near his 10 sack output once his supporting cast is Hughes/Star/Oliver as opposed to Bosa/Buckner/Ford.

[BeastMaster]

2 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

I guess what I’m saying is that it’s hard to see the merit in knocking a guy with 37 sacks over 4 years for not contributing against the run and then advocate for signing a guy with one productive season as a pass rusher which only came once he was surrounded by 3 other first round picks along the DL.

 

I would be hesitant to give Armstead the premier pass rush money he may want because I don’t have confidence that he can perform anywhere near his 10 sack output once his supporting cast is Hughes/Star/Oliver as opposed to Bosa/Buckner/Ford.

I just think Armstead would be a better value.

 

I don't mean to knock the guy's ability...he's clearly a very good pass rusher. The size and inability to be very effective against the run concern me, though. 

 

I'll be very interested if both these guys are available to see what interest the Bills would have.