Buffalophil1948 Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 He's done a good job. Tre might of helped a little. He deserves a shot.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, klos63 said: I think these guys need a job and will take almost any one that's available. Only so many jobs in the NFL to be had, have to be careful about turning one down. I'm looking at it from the Bills-sided POV. I want us to have the best position coaches, not a retread DC who needs a job and is taking any one that's available even if he's not that into it. Now maybe this guy's Real True Love is coaching DBs which he did for 9 years in the NFL for 3 different teams, and he'd be great and put his whole heart into it, I don't know. Or maybe he'd "phone it in" while using his 2 yrs of DC experience and his 1 year of HC experience (AZ) to 2nd guess Frazier.
Augie Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) The best programs, from Saban to Belichick, are constantly having coaching talent poached. It’s quite flattering really, now leave our staff alone! . Edited January 21, 2020 by Augie 2
LSHMEAB Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, apuszczalowski said: Yeah, as a team, I'm sure you don't want to lose lower coaches, but if you keep denying teams access to interview guys on your staff for promotions, when it comes time to you needing to interview someone, teams may block you. It also won't help you much if coaches can get promotions cause you keep preventing them from getting the opportunity. Yep. Just bad form. I would add it may be even slightly more significant for a franchise like the Bills to not become a team known as "blockers." The cost of being "that team" is greater than the benefit of keeping any given assistant. Edited January 21, 2020 by LSHMEAB
Niagara Dude Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said: Dean Pees announced his retirement today, which will leave the Tennessee Titans in need of a new DC for 2020. Ryan Talbot tweeted out some speculation that John Butler, our DB coach, may be of interest due to a connection between him and Vrabel. If that were to occur, I think Steve Wilks would be on the short list to replace him. Much like Washington replacing our departed DL coach, Wilks would seamlessly take over in a familiar scheme where he’s had success. They are welcome to take the whole defensive staff, Frazier is way too conservative and is welcome to leave anytime 1
JGMcD2 Posted January 21, 2020 Author Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said: They are welcome to take the whole defensive staff, Frazier is way too conservative and is welcome to leave anytime Great idea! Guy who was in charge of a defense that allowed 16.2 PPG and less than 300 y/gm should be shown the door. Might as well send McDermott with him!! Edited January 21, 2020 by JGMcD2 2 3
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said: Great idea! Guy who was in charge of a defense that allowed 16.2 PPG and less than 300 y/gm should be shown the door. Might as well send McDermott with him!! Amazing what splendid team-improvement ideas one finds here, eh? Fire the entire defensive coaching staff that just coached the #2 D in the league. Cut like 1/3 of the starting players. Run our back 28-30 carries per game. Course to be fair, we do have some folks who know a few things as well. Hopefully if we do lose Butler and add Wilks, it will be because coaching DBs is his true passion and not because he's taking the only job he can get. Getting fired in AZ after just one year had to be a body-slam to the ego, now this (even though just collateral damage to Kitchens)
Florida Bills Fanatic Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 4 hours ago, whatdrought said: Can you stop a position coach from taking a Coordinator job? Or am I misunderstanding the OP? Teams typically don't. Coaches are under contract and it is probably written into contracts that they will be made available for promotional opportunities. I can't imagine an agent allowing a client to sign a contact that doesn't provide that latitude.
White Linen Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: You can, actually, by rule. All assistant coaches under contract can be blocked from any position except HC. That said, blocking your staff from taking a promotional step would generally be regarded as a d*** move and would seem kind of demoralizing and demotivating since most people want to feel that if they do a great job and are recognized for it, they can advance. I'm confused why you asked if we would let him go for a promotion? When you seem to fully understand we would.
machine gun kelly Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 It’s not really a lateral move from DB coach to DC if he were to get it. To me, it’s bad business to hold people back. It’s different with Daboll which was a lateral move.
MAJBobby Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 18 hours ago, JGMcD2 said: Dean Pees announced his retirement today, which will leave the Tennessee Titans in need of a new DC for 2020. Ryan Talbot tweeted out some speculation that John Butler, our DB coach, may be of interest due to a connection between him and Vrabel. If that were to occur, I think Steve Wilks would be on the short list to replace him. Much like Washington replacing our departed DL coach, Wilks would seamlessly take over in a familiar scheme where he’s had success. Easy, Titans call for an Interview......... BLOCK the INTERVIEW Now you do not have to worry about replacements in a time that most of the quality replacements have been scooped up. 17 hours ago, H2o said: This would be a move up in the ranks for him from a DB coach to an actual DC. You can't block that for someone. YES YOU CAN... Only two spots you cannot block an interview is for HC and GM. Every other coach is a peer and considered assistants
H2o Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: YES YOU CAN... Only two spots you cannot block an interview is for HC and GM. Every other coach is a peer and considered assistants I know that technically you can, but it would be a crappy move on the organization's part to hold a guy back from a potential shot at an elevated position.
MAJBobby Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 1 minute ago, H2o said: I know that technically you can, but it would be a crappy move on the organization's part to hold a guy back from a potential shot at an elevated position. No It isn't, it is the business. at this point Block the interview. That is the Business, they do it for players, then do it for coaches. So Tenn you want to talk to Butler it is a 4th round pick to talk to him. An Assistant coach is just as much of an asset as players. Cant talk to players under contract unless authorized by the team, same goes with Coaches (except for HC obviously), but hey Tenn you want to talk to him fine we will take a draft pick to grant the interview. Edited January 21, 2020 by MAJBobby
H2o Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, MAJBobby said: No It isn't, it is the business. at this point Block the interview. That is the Business, they do it for players, then do it for coaches. So Tenn you want to talk to Butler it is a 4th round pick to talk to him. An Assistant coach is just as much of an asset as players. Cant talk to players under contract unless authorized by the team, same goes with Coaches (except for HC obviously), but hey Tenn you want to talk to him fine we will take a draft pick to grant the interview. I understand your point, but I still think it would be wrong to do to the guy personally unless they bump his pay up or something. Pretty sure a DB coach isn't making the same as would a DC.
MAJBobby Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, H2o said: I understand your point, but I still think it would be wrong to do to the guy personally unless they bump his pay up or something. Pretty sure a DB coach isn't making the same as would a DC. I get that, however I don't care, these coaches should be treated just like the players, They are assets to the organization and under contract. If Tenn wants to talk to Butler, say OK that is fine, it will cost you a 4th. That will tell you how serious they are about him. They give the pick up they can have the interview. Edited January 21, 2020 by MAJBobby
JGMcD2 Posted January 21, 2020 Author Posted January 21, 2020 44 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: I get that, however I don't care, these coaches should be treated just like the players, They are assets to the organization and under contract. If Tenn wants to talk to Butler, say OK that is fine, it will cost you a 4th. That will tell you how serious they are about him. They give the pick up they can have the interview. It’s great in theory, but restricting the potential growth of your employees is a horrible look. If we started doing that, we would have a tough time attracting quality assistant coaches to the organization in the future. Coordinator money is life changing money for a lot of these guys. The opportunity to coordinate puts you on the doorstep of maybe becoming an NFL head coach, which is even more significant life changing money. These types of positions reaffirm your place in the NFL and almost guarantee teams tabbing you as a retread in the future. I had this discussion with a former MLB manager... we were talking about a friend of his who is currently a manager. They both had agreed the situation he was in would make him a lame duck at some point in the future because he’s set up for failure. They also agreed he was making life changing money and had to take it... once you’re a big league manager in baseball it almost elevates the minimum position you’ll receive once you’re inevitably fired. The same applies in other sports... you can’t take that opportunity away from someone. It would be a bad look on the Bills organization. 1
MAJBobby Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 Just now, JGMcD2 said: It’s great in theory, but restricting the potential growth of your employees is a horrible look. If we started doing that, we would have a tough time attracting quality assistant coaches to the organization in the future. Coordinator money is life changing money for a lot of these guys. The opportunity to coordinate puts you on the doorstep of maybe becoming an NFL head coach, which is even more significant life changing money. These types of positions reaffirm your place in the NFL and almost guarantee teams tabbing you as a retread in the future. I had this discussion with a former MLB manager... we were talking about a friend of his who is currently a manager. They both had agreed the situation he was in would make him a lame duck at some point in the future because he’s set up for failure. They also agreed he was making life changing money and had to take it... once you’re a big league manager in baseball it almost elevates the minimum position you’ll receive once you’re inevitably fired. The same applies in other sports... you can’t take that opportunity away from someone. It would be a bad look on the Bills organization. There are only 32 organizations that HIRE in these positions. Using the rules afforded to you as an organization will not change the ability to attract and hire. I would not block a coach ever if you are talking end of DEC and early Jan. But when you are talking End of Jan early Feb, AFTER all coaches have built their staffs ABSOLUTELY I am using my ability to keep my staff intact. College All Star games and practices have started, off-season plans have started. So at this point you want to talk to one of my contracted assets it is going to cost. They can treat players that way they damn sure better look at coaches that way. If they don't there is an issue. If they Coaches really think this is an issue they can take it up with the league in their next CBA or with the coaches and owners meanings. Right now I can block everything but HC and GM. And ONCE the college All-Star Games Start I absolutely advocate for ANY team to do it. Happens all over the league with premier Teams and they have NEVER had issues drawing coaching talent, so that argument really doesn't hold water, there are 32 organizations for hundreds of thousands of coaches. So my stance stands Titans you want to interview Butler (all speculation BTW, I think they promote from within) then we want your 4th round pick for that interview.
JGMcD2 Posted January 21, 2020 Author Posted January 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: There are only 32 organizations that HIRE in these positions. Using the rules afforded to you as an organization will not change the ability to attract and hire. I would not block a coach ever if you are talking end of DEC and early Jan. But when you are talking End of Jan early Feb, AFTER all coaches have built their staffs ABSOLUTELY I am using my ability to keep my staff intact. College All Star games and practices have started, off-season plans have started. So at this point you want to talk to one of my contracted assets it is going to cost. They can treat players that way they damn sure better look at coaches that way. If they don't there is an issue. If they Coaches really think this is an issue they can take it up with the league in their next CBA or with the coaches and owners meanings. Right now I can block everything but HC and GM. And ONCE the college All-Star Games Start I absolutely advocate for ANY team to do it. Happens all over the league with premier Teams and they have NEVER had issues drawing coaching talent, so that argument really doesn't hold water, there are 32 organizations for hundreds of thousands of coaches. So my stance stands Titans you want to interview Butler (all speculation BTW, I think they promote from within) then we want your 4th round pick for that interview. Sure, but the Collective Bargaining Agreement is between Team Owners and the NFLPA. Coaches float out there in no man’s land. That’s why coaches are upset about practice and off-season restrictions... because they had no say in it. The Owners gave that to the NFLPA as a bargaining chip for something that they really wanted in return. The coaches don’t factor in to CBA negotiations. These types of things are settled with the various committees enacted by the NFL. The committees are comprised of entirely NFL Owners and while they have sub-committees with coaches on them, the Owners still make the final decisions.
MAJBobby Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 Just now, JGMcD2 said: Sure, but the Collective Bargaining Agreement is between Team Owners and the NFLPA. Coaches float out there in no man’s land. That’s why coaches are upset about practice and off-season restrictions... because they had no say in it. The Owners gave that to the NFLPA as a bargaining chip for something that they really wanted in return. The coaches don’t factor in to CBA negotiations. These types of things are settled with the various committees enacted by the NFL. The committees are comprised of entirely NFL Owners and while they have sub-committees with coaches on them, the Owners still make the final decisions. coaches have a union. As well. It is very well known BB isn’t part of that union. The NFLCA could easily work to change the rules. so again the rules are the rules. Block the interview it isn’t going to change the attractiveness or draw for future assistants.
JGMcD2 Posted January 21, 2020 Author Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, MAJBobby said: coaches have a union. As well. It is very well known BB isn’t part of that union. The NFLCA could easily work to change the rules. so again the rules are the rules. Block the interview it isn’t going to change the attractiveness or draw for future assistants. “[t]he National Football League Coaches Association (‘NFLCA’) is a nonunion voluntary association that represents the interests of coaches and assistant coaches currently employed by the thirty-two individual National Football League (‘NFL’) teams, as well as many retired coaches formerly employed by those NFL teams.” It is very well know that the coaches are not unionized. It’s not a union. You’re fundamentally misinterpreting the hierarchy of the NFL. Edited January 21, 2020 by JGMcD2
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