Bills Press and Fans...It’s Time to Move On With Pat Mahomes

[BADOLBILZ]

33 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, Bet!

 

 

Ain't no half steppin' B(eane).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

33 minutes ago, Margarita said:

I buy this enboldened actually...Motivate them how exactly...... to try to scout better, evaluate better, choose better. Okay I would think everyone would be on board for that..in other words continuing betterment of their evaluation skills in hopes of drafting better players. Fine. Having said that there is NO Way a person or organization is going to be successful 100% every time pick the player whose skills will be have been PROVEN to not be a bust at the next level.....show me One organization who nails every one of their picks every time there is none. I'll say it again it isn't an exact science if it were then no team would draft busts. But all do. To want to do and be better should be a given but WITHOUT the fans whining and weeping gnashing of teeth about every unchosen pick or opportunity I tend to think the folks in charge already want to do and be better especially because for they unlike us their jobs are on the line based on those decisions,. 

 

Here's the thing about this in business it's dumb not to remember your mistakes and learn from them and use them as motivation idea, though. 

 

Right after the 2017 draft, the Bills fired Whaley AND his entire pro personnel and scouting department.  Got a broom, swept them all out the door.

They later did hire a few of them back. 

 

Presumably Beane, his new pro personnel guy, and his new director of college scouting, provided those who did come back with their guidelines on how they wanted scouting done and their parameters for grades, not necessarily the same.

 

So what exactly is the Bills current organization supposed to learn from not having drafted Mahomes? 

The one who is really still there in a position of power is McDermott.  It seems pretty clear he did not want to pull the trigger on a critical decision he personally didn't feel qualified to call (franchise QB), based on the scouting reports of a GM and staff he was about to fire, who had whiffed a 1st round QB draft pick 4 years previously.  Is he supposed to learn "call your shot and draft a QB prospect even when you've got lame duck scouts who got it wrong previously?"  Sounds to me like that might be the wrong lesson to take.

 

The other thing it seems likely he did in that draft, is to trust the judgement of his new WR coach on drafting the ultra-productive WR that guy had coached in college, Zay Jones.  And that turned out to be a whiff, and I expect he did learn from it, and any further coaching hires he makes from the college ranks will not get their guys drafted with high picks unless thoroughly vetted by professional scouts.  (Low picks or UDFA guys like Foster, no biggie)

 

It seems a gigantic waste of angst and energy to try to figure out the grading system and parameters used by the previous staff so you can learn from their mistakes and motivate yourself, instead of focusing on the grading system and parameters you're using now, any mistakes you might make with them, and how to improve on where you are now going forward.

 

26 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

Call me delusional, but i dont see him being half as good as he currently is today. 

If we had some talent, and a talented OC id probably be pissed about it....but i just had no faith back then.

 

I think you'd be able to see him as a tremendously talented QB, but with the same OL and WR we had in 2018 he would not have been League MVP.  Not even close.

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Nobody, NOBODY, in the NFL is NOT motivated to do their jobs better. In a business that defines the very nature of the “what have you done for me lately” mindset, EVERYBODY involved is dedicated to doing something NOW. 
 

We, as fans, just can’t believe that’s the case. And that says more about us than it does about those in charge of our favorite teams. 

 

 

Rex Ryan?  Marcell Dareus?  Basically 50% of the roster in meaningless December games?

 

[SoTier]

6 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

I agree.  Not sure why Mahomes is any different.  And it’s not just the Bills.  It happens with EVERY franchise.  I think you have to accept that these things happen and move on.  

 

No, "these things" don't happen to "every franchise".   Teams don't pass on great QB prospects to draft a DB when they are in desperate need of a QB.  They happen to teams because the ownership and top management are either inept or not particularly interested in winning football games.  It's time for Bills fans to just own it: Terry Pegula screwed the pooch by keeping Russ Brandon on when he purchased the team in 2013.  The Bills had a .383 winning percentage and never won more than 7 games in the 8 years that Brandon ran the team through 2013 when Pegula purchased the team.  When the Bills cleaned house of the old guard, Brandon stayed.  After the Ryan fiasco, Pegula just let Brandon do whatever he wanted and even promoted him to run the Sabres, which has worked out really well, too.

 

In 2017, the Bills did what they'd always done under Wilson and Brandon: let the good young players walk away in FA -- some reputedly without ever getting an offer from the Bills -- and used the draft to fill the holes they'd created.  I don't know why Whaley was marginalized before the 2017, but putting McDermott in charge of the 2017 draft and instructing him/authorizing him to make the trade was a major blunder that will haunt the Bills for as long as Mahomes continues to dominate the NFL, and it's on Pegula.   McDermott was a neophyte HC.  He was a lamb ready to be fleeced by that experienced KC FO (and Andy Reid in particular who seems to have made the Bills his special target over the years) that know what the hell they're doing.

 

It's time to move on from this, but it will continue to resurface with regularity unless Josh Allen can rise to the level of elite NFL QB.  Alex Smith is a good NFL QB but the Niners' passing on Aaron Rodgers to take #1 over in 2005 still comes up whenever the Niners play the Packers.   Nobody laments that the Bills took Jim Kelly over Dan Marino because of Kelly's success.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by SoTier

[BBills88]

This topic is so tiresome. 

Nobody had a crystal ball to know that Patrick Mahomes was going to be this good. 

In fact most gurus didn't even have him as high a 3 rd rounder if you go and look back. ( He came from a Air Raid System which dosent Translate in the NFL they said.)

If anybody should be kicking themselves it should be the "the Top 5 teams". I'm sure they wish they could do a do over for 2017 draft. 

BIlls fans and Press need to get over it as there were 9 other teams that pick ahead of us and missed.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Nobody, NOBODY, in the NFL is NOT motivated to do their jobs better. In a business that defines the very nature of the “what have you done for me lately” mindset, EVERYBODY involved is dedicated to doing something NOW. 
 

We, as fans, just can’t believe that’s the case. And that says more about us than it does about those in charge of our favorite teams. 

 

Actually.......I think that people in the NFL ARE sometimes unmotivated and that many of those people previously worked for the Bills.

 

Whaley and Marrone were said to be upset at a culture of "lifers" at One Bills Drive including people on the training and S&C staff, FO staff etc and had wanted to clean house, which had been blocked. 

 

But Whaley and Russ Brandon were said to be party boys themselves (in somewhat different ways), from what I understand. 

 

Then Rex came in and Shaq Lawson said it was a party. Stephon Gilmore said in Buffalo under Rex, the players were left to watch film of opponents (or not watch film of opponents) on their own.

 

There's a line of thought that a culture of mediocrity could have been turned around while keeping some of the best talent that was on the roster.  Maybe it could.  But another thought is that you can't effect significant cultural change by keeping most things the same, and the most talented players on the roster - the ones you need to lead - may be the hardest to get to "buy in".  When you've got a star earning 10-20x as much as his coach with a big pile of guaranteed $$ and you tell him "hey, I need you to start watching film 4 hrs a day and get to meetings early to set an example for these new Young Sahabs", you just might get the best Eye Roll you've seen.

 

 

[Rico]

1 hour ago, Real McNasty said:

Just read the article and blame Doug. Will put everyones mind at ease.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2707036-doug-whaley-passing-on-patrick-mahomes-rumored-to-be-final-straw-before-firing

If you are going to blame anyone, blame Pegs. He should’ve dumped all of Ralph’s trash the 1st offseason after he bought the team. 

[K-9]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Rex Ryan?  Marcell Dareus?  Basically 50% of the roster in meaningless December games?

 

There are exceptions. But nobody gets into the business trying to F things up. Lazy, just mail it in and run for the bus types generally don’t last long. 

[Xwnyer]

Agree 100000% One reason I really wanted chief to lose this insanity around here needs to stop.   We made the right moves.  We like to put this in the press and than on twitter and facebook assuming players dont see the junk about them on social media than we wonder why they dont want to hag around for Bills Mafia 

[Livinginthepast]

Cmon guys turn those Mahomes frowns upside down!! Look on the bright side we got a stud QB in the 5th round, Nathan Peterman! A full fledged member of the NFL preseason HOF!!

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually.......I think that people in the NFL ARE sometimes unmotivated and that many of those people previously worked for the Bills.

 

Whaley and Marrone were said to be upset at a culture of "lifers" at One Bills Drive including people on the training and S&C staff, FO staff etc and had wanted to clean house, which had been blocked. 

 

But Whaley and Russ Brandon were said to be party boys themselves (in somewhat different ways), from what I understand. 

 

Then Rex came in and Shaq Lawson said it was a party. Stephon Gilmore said in Buffalo under Rex, the players were left to watch film of opponents (or not watch film of opponents) on their own.

 

There's a line of thought that a culture of mediocrity could have been turned around while keeping some of the best talent that was on the roster.  Maybe it could.  But another thought is that you can't effect significant cultural change by keeping most things the same, and the most talented players on the roster - the ones you need to lead - may be the hardest to get to "buy in".  When you've got a star earning 10-20x as much as his coach with a big pile of guaranteed $$ and you tell him "hey, I need you to start watching film 4 hrs a day and get to meetings early to set an example for these new Young Sahabs", you just might get the best Eye Roll you've seen.

 

 

I agree that complacency can set in. But again, nobody starts out NOT trying their best to make things better. Specifically, McBeane in this case. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

57 minutes ago, Ramza86 said:

Call me delusional, but i dont see him being half as good as he currently is today. 

If we had some talent, and a talented OC id probably be pissed about it....but i just had no faith back then.

 

I'm there too.

 

5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I agree that complacency can set in. But again, nobody starts out NOT trying their best to make things better. Specifically, McBeane in this case. 

 

Well, and it's a point that McDermott, after his first year I believe, WAS empowered to make sweeping changes to much of the staff including training and S&C.

The entire scouting and pro personnel staff was swept out the door with Whaley and only selected few hired back.

Etc.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Real McNasty said:

Just read the article and blame Doug. Will put everyones mind at ease.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2707036-doug-whaley-passing-on-patrick-mahomes-rumored-to-be-final-straw-before-firing

 

I don't believe that article matches up with observed behavior and things that have been said by the press.

 

Whaley was a Dead Man Walking the moment McDermott was hired, and he knew it.

 

Wawrow said of Whaley's famous "not privy to" presser, that before that presser Whaley had a future at TBD; after that presser (in which, he pretty much threw Terry Pegula under the bus), he did not. 

 

You could see from Whaley's dress and demeanor when McDermott arrived at OBD that Whaley was an afterthought and knew it.  You could read between the lines of McDermott's introductory presser where he was pressed on his thoughts about working with Whaley and his response was not "I'm looking forward to working with Doug" it was the ambiguous "I'm very comfortable with the situation...the Pegulas have made sure that I'm comfortable with the situation and I appreciate that" 

 

Then there was the sight of Whaley happily playing with his toddler on the lawn after the NFL annual meeting where everyone else had long taken off to get back to scouting and pre-draft planning, as Whaley would have done.  No way he's doing that if he's still empowered to do real GM things.

 

It's long been said (in fact I believe McDermott pretty much admitted) that he made the draft selections from Whaley's board.  Anyone who thinks that a guy who was pretty clearly and visibly a total lame duck for the previous several months, made that trade down decision without buy in from McDermott and Pegula, is ready to buy a bridge.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Rico said:

If you are going to blame anyone, blame Pegs. He should’ve dumped all of Ralph’s trash the 1st offseason after he bought the team. 

 

I might be an outlier, but I can never blame a new business owner for taking some time and assessing the organization before getting out a scythe and a broom.

[Mr. WEO]

Awesome thread topic....fresh!!

[BADOLBILZ]

 

30 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I agree that complacency can set in. But again, nobody starts out NOT trying their best to make things better. Specifically, McBeane in this case. 

 

 

Fortunately for people like Tom Brady there are people like you who don't believe in the great value of ADDED motivation.

 

Tom shouldn't have dwelled on being passed over by every team 6 times.

[Rico]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't believe that article matches up with observed behavior and things that have been said by the press.

 

Whaley was a Dead Man Walking the moment McDermott was hired, and he knew it.

 

Wawrow said of Whaley's famous "not privy to" presser, that before that presser Whaley had a future at TBD; after that presser (in which, he pretty much threw Terry Pegula under the bus), he did not. 

 

You could see from Whaley's dress and demeanor when McDermott arrived at OBD that Whaley was an afterthought and knew it.  You could read between the lines of McDermott's introductory presser where he was pressed on his thoughts about working with Whaley and his response was not "I'm looking forward to working with Doug" it was the ambiguous "I'm very comfortable with the situation...the Pegulas have made sure that I'm comfortable with the situation and I appreciate that" 

 

Then there was the sight of Whaley happily playing with his toddler on the lawn after the NFL annual meeting where everyone else had long taken off to get back to scouting and pre-draft planning, as Whaley would have done.  No way he's doing that if he's still empowered to do real GM things.

 

It's long been said (in fact I believe McDermott pretty much admitted) that he made the draft selections from Whaley's board.  Anyone who thinks that a guy who was pretty clearly and visibly a total lame duck for the previous several months, made that trade down decision without buy in from McDermott and Pegula, is ready to buy a bridge.

 

 

 

I might be an outlier, but I can never blame a new business owner for taking some time and assessing the organization before getting out a scythe and a broom.

I would normally agree, but when you combine Brandon & Whaley’s years of proven failure with the  Marrone mess, he would’ve been better off just cleaning house.

 

That being said, I’m very happy with the current situation as-is. No guarantee that you would get a McBeane in 2015, and I don’t want anything to do with Mahomes, Josh is my QB.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I didn't realize it was the fans job to draft players.?

 

Even still, there were plenty here who loved Mahomes.... and it's really not the point. It's the Bills front office/coaches job to do their due diligence in regards to scouting the most important position in the sport. They punted on two of the best in the game currently for the next year and Josh Allen. Just have to hope he turns into at least a top 10 guy. You are going to hear the comparisons and bitching and moaning until that happens. 

 

 

....apparently you're exempt from "hindsight is a beautiful thing" based on you adept "clairvoyance".....NEVER expected a negative Bills comment from you.....next up is draft and FA.....sharpen your darts....SMH..........

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

That's my main beef is the fans out there that think we made the correct decision in getting White, Edmunds, and Allen instead of Mahomes.  That Mahomes wouldn't have succeeded in Buffalo because he didn't have the pieces or coaches around him that he does in Kansas City.  I don't even think Hue Jackson could've prevented Mahomes from being a Superstar if Cleveland drafted him.

 

I'll give Pegula for firing Whaley the next day after that draft for that blunder (albeit incidentally).

Wanna bet?

[Rico]

6 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I didn't realize it was the fans job to draft players.?

 

Even still, there were plenty here who loved Mahomes.... and it's really not the point. It's the Bills front office/coaches job to do their due diligence in regards to scouting the most important position in the sport. They punted on two of the best in the game currently for the next year and Josh Allen. Just have to hope he turns into at least a top 10 guy. You are going to hear the comparisons and bitching and moaning until that happens. 

Only if you were the GM, Tyrod Taylor would still be the QB.

[purple haze]

Patrick Mahomes is great.  The Bills decided to pass the same as 9 other teams bc there were the usual draft questions surrounding him.  I like the Bills team as it exists and they are ascending.  20/20 hindsight is worthless.  And the Bills were in the same playoff tournament Mahomes participated in.  Jokers that keep bringing up Mahomes talk like the Bills are 2-14 and getting worse.   They aren't.  They're getting better.  So, there's that.

Edited January 20, 2020 by purple haze