Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 This thread's a spinoff from the bail topic because while it's tangentially related, it seemed like it needed its own thread. I want you to think about the average American for a moment. Most Americans couldn't find their own home town on a map, yet they're entrusted with electing people who will influence global geo-politics. Most Americans can't balance their own checkbooks, and yet they're entrusted with electing people who are in charge of managing governmental budgets. Most Americans can't explain HOW the government works, and yet they're in charge of choosing WHO runs the government. Do the American people deserve the rights they have, given their basic failure to embrace the responsibility for self-management such rights come with? I understand @TakeYouToTasker's vociferous support for unlimited freedoms, but he seems to ignore the responsibilities portion of the equation. Is it even POSSIBLE for such a citizenry to manage their own affairs in a truly FREE society? I doubt it. I could be wrong, but I have serious reservations about the idea. What are your thoughts? Are there any real, effective solutions to what I see as the core problem of our system?
Just Joshin' Posted January 19, 2020 Posted January 19, 2020 Wow - I don't know how to respond because I can not tell if serious.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 19, 2020 Author Posted January 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Just Joshin' said: Wow - I don't know how to respond because I can not tell if serious. I get that response, it's not an easy question. I only ask for honest input on the thought. I have VERY little faith in the wisdom of the average person, and I think the political system we have now is a direct reflection of that lack of wisdom.
CoudyBills Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 7:21 PM, Joe in Winslow said: I get that response, it's not an easy question. I only ask for honest input on the thought. I have VERY little faith in the wisdom of the average person, and I think the political system we have now is a direct reflection of that lack of wisdom. George Carlin was absolutely correct when he said that we can't expect politicians to be better than they are because they are us. They are a product of our society and our system of education. I see what you are saying and I understand it but I have to really work to supress my incredibly strong reaction to the question. I lean very much libertarian, but I'm not an anarchist, I believe we should be as free as is possible with as small a government as is practical to defend the homeland and regulate interstate commerce. Oh hell, I think I just started ranting about some other topic...sorry.
keepthefaith Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) On 1/18/2020 at 6:16 PM, Joe in Winslow said: This thread's a spinoff from the bail topic because while it's tangentially related, it seemed like it needed its own thread. I want you to think about the average American for a moment. Most Americans couldn't find their own home town on a map, yet they're entrusted with electing people who will influence global geo-politics. Most Americans can't balance their own checkbooks, and yet they're entrusted with electing people who are in charge of managing governmental budgets. Most Americans can't explain HOW the government works, and yet they're in charge of choosing WHO runs the government. Do the American people deserve the rights they have, given their basic failure to embrace the responsibility for self-management such rights come with? I understand @TakeYouToTasker's vociferous support for unlimited freedoms, but he seems to ignore the responsibilities portion of the equation. Is it even POSSIBLE for such a citizenry to manage their own affairs in a truly FREE society? I doubt it. I could be wrong, but I have serious reservations about the idea. What are your thoughts? Are there any real, effective solutions to what I see as the core problem of our system? Politicians enjoy the freedom to keep the electorate in the dark. Instead of informing the public (their constituents) on the matters within their areas of responsibility - we get sound bite presentations or an avalanche of information (2000+ page ACA bill) or nothing at all. Additionally, schools and parents choose not to teach children in any reinforced way the roles of government and the importance of being engaged. That has bred a citizen culture which overall lacks understanding and interest. I recently held a meet and greet and fundraiser in our subdivision for a Republican candidate running in a primary for our US congressional district. The seat is currently held by a dem in a district which has about 55% Republican registered voters. The subdivision is easily 66% republican and there are over 1000 homes. It's an affluent subdivision and the average education is probably more than a bachelors degree. The district had not been blue in decades. This area of the district is mad as hell that a dem won in 2018. We worked to promote the event and had 30 people attend. I thought we'd get 100 easily and reach the capacity of the subdivision clubhouse. People, even those that can balance a checkbook simply lack interest. The right to vote for all people is absolutely essential for a free society. It's a shame so many people don't invest a little time to help them best exercise this right and hold elected officials more accountable for good performance. Edited January 20, 2020 by keepthefaith
Doc Brown Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 Denying a law abiding citizen the right to vote is antithetical to a free and open society. What would you suggest? A civics test to qualify to vote? A high school diploma? A college diploma? I could think of a million reasons why any of those requirements would be a bad idea. One change that needs to be made is more of an emphasis on civics education starting in middle school. 3
Azalin Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 It would require a coup; a renegade takeover of the republic in order to take away rights that are guaranteed to us by our creator. That would be cause for an immediate call to arms. 1
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted January 20, 2020 Author Posted January 20, 2020 5 hours ago, keepthefaith said: Politicians enjoy the freedom to keep the electorate in the dark. Instead of informing the public (their constituents) on the matters within their areas of responsibility - we get sound bite presentations or an avalanche of information (2000+ page ACA bill) or nothing at all. Additionally, schools and parents choose not to teach children in any reinforced way the roles of government and the importance of being engaged. That has bred a citizen culture which overall lacks understanding and interest. I recently held a meet and greet and fundraiser in our subdivision for a Republican candidate running in a primary for our US congressional district. The seat is currently held by a dem in a district which has about 55% Republican registered voters. The subdivision is easily 66% republican and there are over 1000 homes. It's an affluent subdivision and the average education is probably more than a bachelors degree. The district had not been blue in decades. This area of the district is mad as hell that a dem won in 2018. We worked to promote the event and had 30 people attend. I thought we'd get 100 easily and reach the capacity of the subdivision clubhouse. People, even those that can balance a checkbook simply lack interest. The right to vote for all people is absolutely essential for a free society. It's a shame so many people don't invest a little time to help them best exercise this right and hold elected officials more accountable for good performance. This is the other side of the coin. People don't take their RESPONSIBILITY to be an educated and impassioned electorate seriously. 4 hours ago, Azalin said: It would require a coup; a renegade takeover of the republic in order to take away rights that are guaranteed to us by our creator. That would be cause for an immediate call to arms. Great thought: but when the republic was founded, universal suffrage wasn't the norm. So maybe it's NOT a God-given right?
snafu Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Joe in Winslow said: This is the other side of the coin. People don't take their RESPONSIBILITY to be an educated and impassioned electorate seriously. Great thought: but when the republic was founded, universal suffrage wasn't the norm. So maybe it's NOT a God-given right? The ship has sailed. We’ve got the system we have. You’re not going to convince anyone that they’re too ignorant to vote. I don’t think anything really needs to change. But if someone is hell bent on changing the system, then one way is to get the voting public involved in local issues first, and shifting the power to govern back to states and counties. Another completely different way is to allow people to sell their votes to other individuals.
SoCal Deek Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 The far bigger problem than the voters and their elected officials is the corruption of the media. I can virtually guarantee that none of us has had President Trump over for dinner, yet many in the media have painted him as a monster. These folks know better, yet they’re purposely doing the country a huge disservice. Shame! 1
snafu Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: The far bigger problem than the voters and their elected officials is the corruption of the media. I can virtually guarantee that none of us has had President Trump over for dinner, yet many in the media have painted him as a monster. These folks know better, yet they’re purposely doing the country a huge disservice. Shame! Partisan reporting is not new. It was prevalent in the 18th and 19th Century and then faded out, and then made a resurgence. One article I found is from 2011 https://ethics.journalism.wisc.edu/2011/04/20/the-fall-and-rise-of-partisan-journalism/ . I almost wrote an email to the author because I wanted to know whether his opinion in 2011 is different today. He's dead, so I can't ask him. But I found an Atlantic article which cites him and basically concludes that there's no going back at this point https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/post-advertising-future-media/578917/ . I kind of disagree with the Atlantic author's absolutism, but even if partisan reporting does fade away, it will probably take a long time. It seems very easy to fix the problem (this goes for Left, and Right news outlets). Have NEWS stories report the FACTS, and if a reporter wants to color the facts, then he or she should be required to put a disclaimer at the front of the article. The problem is, reporting outlets act as though there's no subjectivity in their news articles at all -- or worse yet, they deny it outright.
IDBillzFan Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 13 hours ago, Azalin said: It would require a coup; a renegade takeover of the republic in order to take away rights that are guaranteed to us by our creator. That would be cause for an immediate call to arms. WOLVERINES! 2 3
Doc Brown Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: The far bigger problem than the voters and their elected officials is the corruption of the media. I can virtually guarantee that none of us has had President Trump over for dinner, yet many in the media have painted him as a monster. These folks know better, yet they’re purposely doing the country a huge disservice. Shame! A big part of Trump's victory was a rebellion against the media elites. Same with the rise of Sanders. Both populist candidates appealing to different ends of the political spectrum who's rallying cry involved blaming others for the problems in their supporters lives. 1
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 14 hours ago, Azalin said: It would require a coup; a renegade takeover of the republic in order to take away rights that are guaranteed to us by our creator. That would be cause for an immediate call to arms. I would argue that the franchise is nothing more than a legal fiction. A construct invented by the elite/ruling class in order to justify as legitimate the projection of force towards those they intend to rule. The franchise cannot exist without the state, and the state is not of God. The franchise is part of the chains of servitude. 1
/dev/null Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 4 hours ago, IDBillzFan said: WOLVERINES! 1
Azalin Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 3 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said: I would argue that the franchise is nothing more than a legal fiction. A construct invented by the elite/ruling class in order to justify as legitimate the projection of force towards those they intend to rule. The franchise cannot exist without the state, and the state is not of God. The franchise is part of the chains of servitude. I don't know, man. We frequently agree, but I hope you're wrong.
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Azalin said: I don't know, man. We frequently agree, but I hope you're wrong. Consider: “The consent of the governed” This concept is what Lockeans and Jeffersonians would mandate In order that a government be considered legitimate. However, in order for this to be true it would require 100% consent and non-compelled participation in the democratic process. Here in America far less than 50% of the eligible population casts a ballot. The two major parties construct the law in such a manner to limit 3rd party participation in order to maintain a false choice paradigm. Given this the ruling class takes it’s “mandate for action” on the say so of maybe 1/4 of the population. It’s part of the matrix used to oppress. Edited January 21, 2020 by TakeYouToTasker 1
Azalin Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 28 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: Consider: “The consent of the governed” This concept is what Lockeans and Jeffersonians would mandate In order that a government be considered legitimate. However, in order for this to be true it would require 100% consent and non-compelled participation in the democratic process. Here in America far less than 50% of the eligible population casts a ballot. The two major parties construct the law in such a manner to limit 3rd party participation in order to maintain a false choice paradigm. Given this the ruling class takes it’s “mandate for action” on the day so of maybe 1/4 of the population. It’s part of the matrix used to oppress. You sure make it difficult to argue, my friend. 1
Keukasmallies Posted January 21, 2020 Posted January 21, 2020 I have a different take on "most Americans." I think most Americans do have a basic understanding of the things OP posted. At the same time I think "most Americans" feel that the people "they elected" have gone off the rails to create agendas that have little or nothing to do with the things the electorate was promised, and that the electorate feels are important. The majority did not elect their representatives to become embroiled in a vast conspiracy seeking revenge for an election that saw the annointed one lose. The lack of attention to the business of government in DC has turned the electorate against the long-standing politicos who need a win to assuage their 2016 loss. Hopefully, the term limits discussion will gain momentum in the very near future. 1
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