I know its just PFF but still, did #97 play that poorly?

[MAJBobby]

8 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

The sack numbers were great, but even if PFF is a joke, there has to be SOME merit in their analysis no?

 

PFF gives Jordan Phillips an overall grade of 51.8, which ranks 153rd out of 197 defensive linemen in the league. His pass-rush grade of 60.5 ranks 94th among defensive linemen. Of Phillips' 583 snaps in 2019, 362 were in pass rush (putting him 40th among D-linemen) and 218 were against the run, according to PFF. He played 52.4% of the Bills' defensive snaps.

his run defense was a major liability. 

[Needle]

I liked Phillips this year. I don't have the time to watch film like some of you but I'm inclined to believe what most are saying. 

 

It's kind of disappointing because I thought he was making a bigger impact off of just watching the games live. I didnt identify the significant run deficiencies.

 

I have a strange feeling that the Bills are going to pay him though.

[Stank_Nasty]

The bills defensive unit was basically universally regarded as a top 5 unit.... I have no clue how a unit that finished so high across the board in basically any major stat didn’t have a single guy ranked highly by PFF. These guys said there were 18 corners better than Tre white. How can anyone take that seriously?.... EIGHTEEN
 

I used to, at the very least, value PFF as a small tool in the toolbox when it came to ranking players performance. Nowadays I have a hard time taking them seriously at all. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Stank_Nasty

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, costrovs said:

 

Well 1st off.... it's puff puff pass, not puff puff give...... ?

 

2nd... Harry missed most of the year, so that Harry/Star rotation is incorrect.

 

3rd.... no one played better, and I didn't say they all suck. 

and no he didn't put the whole d-line on his back.

So you have Phillips/Oliver and Star/Harry. 

0-tech, 1-tech, 3-tech, tech-9, it shouldn't really matter(i'm talking 4-3) DT is a DT. DE is a DE. it shouldn't matter where you line up. This is the NFL, not pop warner or High School. You should be expected to play either or. Screw what the announcers or people call as 1-tech or 3-tech. I've seen them line up at all positions. Kyle Williams has lined up at 0, 1, 3 and 5. Bruce Smith has lined up at 0, 1, 3, 5 and 7. Kyle plays better as a DT. and Bruce plays better as a DE.

regardless of technique, DT is a DT. DE is a DE.

 

Jordan can't replace Star?

 

Where the lines of Hughes/Oliver/Jordan/Lawson never on the field together at all this year?(spoiler- they were)

 

I mean, doesn't Hughes/Oliver/Jordan/Lawson look like a better line than Hughes/Oliver/Star/Lawson or Hughes/Oliver/Harry/Lawson or Hughes/Jordan/Star/Lawson or Hughes/Jordan/Harry/Lawson? 

 

Harry went down early in the season so the jury is still  out on him, and Star cant do a damn thing. 

If Phillips can't replace Star, then Oliver can. It'll still be the same thing though. Jordan and Oliver on the field at the same time.

That’s exactly it. He can only play 3tech and can’t replace anyone really. Oliver looks like he can do it all. He’s the most valuable DT on the roster. Phillips is a nice piece but nonessential...can’t push the pocket, can’t play the 1spot, loses against the run and against double teams. He’s a penetrating one gapper and will be valued as such by the FO.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

I've often wondered whether PFF works with a lower starting baseline when grading Bills players....you know they always seem lower than the team's actual strength is.

[wppete]

9 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

The sack numbers were great, but even if PFF is a joke, there has to be SOME merit in their analysis no?

 

PFF gives Jordan Phillips an overall grade of 51.8, which ranks 153rd out of 197 defensive linemen in the league. His pass-rush grade of 60.5 ranks 94th among defensive linemen. Of Phillips' 583 snaps in 2019, 362 were in pass rush (putting him 40th among D-linemen) and 218 were against the run, according to PFF. He played 52.4% of the Bills' defensive snaps.

Hopefully we get a good deal then.

 

[Green Lightning]

8 hours ago, Hebert19 said:

Hes a rotational player and should be paid as one.  If he gets offered starter type money then let him go.  

Ditto. let's move on.

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, costrovs said:

 

Well 1st off.... it's puff puff pass, not puff puff give...... ?

 

2nd... Harry missed most of the year, so that Harry/Star rotation is incorrect.

 

3rd.... no one played better, and I didn't say they all suck. 

and no he didn't put the whole d-line on his back.

So you have Phillips/Oliver and Star/Harry. 

0-tech, 1-tech, 3-tech, tech-9, it shouldn't really matter(i'm talking 4-3) DT is a DT. DE is a DE. it shouldn't matter where you line up. This is the NFL, not pop warner or High School. You should be expected to play either or. Screw what the announcers or people call as 1-tech or 3-tech. I've seen them line up at all positions. Kyle Williams has lined up at 0, 1, 3 and 5. Bruce Smith has lined up at 0, 1, 3, 5 and 7. Kyle plays better as a DT. and Bruce plays better as a DE.

regardless of technique, DT is a DT. DE is a DE.

 

Jordan can't replace Star?

 

Where the lines of Hughes/Oliver/Jordan/Lawson never on the field together at all this year?(spoiler- they were)

 

I mean, doesn't Hughes/Oliver/Jordan/Lawson look like a better line than Hughes/Oliver/Star/Lawson or Hughes/Oliver/Harry/Lawson or Hughes/Jordan/Star/Lawson or Hughes/Jordan/Harry/Lawson? 

 

Harry went down early in the season so the jury is still  out on him, and Star cant do a damn thing. 

If Phillips can't replace Star, then Oliver can. It'll still be the same thing though. Jordan and Oliver on the field at the same time.

1st It can be pass too but I said give. Look at the video. Not a good start. ?

2nd I never mentioned Harry. Strike 2 ?

3rd replacing Star isn't as easy as you think. Jordan can't do Star's job. Not even close. Neither can Oliver. There's a reason Star is a starter and not Jordan. As for your spoiler alert, it's called rotation. ?

I'm not even gonna bother with the rest. Wanna know why? Jordan couldn't even crack the starting line-up next year with Star, Harry and Oliver, so he ain't getting paid here. Puff puff give.

 

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

8 hours ago, sven233 said:

The eyeball test says he was a pretty good pass rusher, but while he did make a lot of plays on his own, some of the sack production he had was the direct result of someone else pushing the play and Phillips finishing it up.  Also, in my opinion, for someone his size, he was pretty bad against the run. 

 

I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I am not re-signing him for anything more than 7.5 at the very most.  I think he is a 6-7 million dollar player.  I think there may be a team or 2 that looks at the sack numbers and overpays him.  I don't want to be that team, especially with Horrible Harry coming back.  He was our best lineman when he was playing early.

Teams are more sophisticated in their analysis of potential free agents than they used to be.  PFF generates a lot of raw data but doesn't do a great job of analyzing the factors leading to a specific outcome.  Teams study the players real role in specific plays and they understand the assignments and the actual execution by the player.  In other posts, it was observed that some of Phillips' sacks were the result of the play being pushed into his lap by another player.  I share some of that opinion.  IMHO he is not one of the top DT's in the league and is nothing more than a good rotational role player.  The only way he gets a big contract is if one of the traditionally bad teams (like the JESTS) gets overly enamored with him.  I'm sure Beane knows what he is dealing with and he will let him walk before overpaying.

[billsbackto81]

7 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd rather keep both, but it seems pretty clear from what he said that if Beane has to choose, it'll be Shaq

I think both Shaq and Phillips will find bigger paydays outside Buffalo. I'd like to retain both though. Rotation is a big part of this defense and these guys are perfect for that. 

[artmalibu]

Its all about the money.  For a reasonable deal sign him up, top 10 pay for his position no thanks...

[costrovs]

1 hour ago, Dopey said:

1st It can be pass too but I said give. Look at the video. Not a good start. ?

2nd I never mentioned Harry. Strike 2 ?

3rd replacing Star isn't as easy as you think. Jordan can't do Star's job. Not even close. Neither can Oliver. There's a reason Star is a starter and not Jordan. As for your spoiler alert, it's called rotation. ?

I'm not even gonna bother with the rest. Wanna know why? Jordan couldn't even crack the starting line-up next year with Star, Harry and Oliver, so he ain't getting paid here. Puff puff give.

 

 

1. you're right, it can be give. but everyone knows it's really pass. all the other youtube videos say pass, not give. 

2. my bad, i dont use the forums that much, that was meant for Hapless, saying that Harry/Star rotated, which can only be the case for the first 3 games this year, because Harry went to IR. So that wasn't the rotation for the season. 

3. C'mon man, Star is useless. They hardly ever double team him, he's too fat and slow. 

He's not getting much playing time for being starter, and that's with Harry on IR, I'm sure he'll be playing less once Harry comes back. Plus, according to spotrac.com their is a 'potential out' in his contract after 2020 season. I'm sure this will be his last season in a Bills uni.

 

Star - only 8 games this season with over 50% of the snaps

Jordan - 11 

Oliver - 9 over 50%, 12 including games at exactly 50%

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2019.htm

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8wscdKgigA

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by costrovs

[costrovs]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

That’s exactly it. He can only play 3tech and can’t replace anyone really. Oliver looks like he can do it all. He’s the most valuable DT on the roster. Phillips is a nice piece but nonessential...can’t push the pocket, can’t play the 1spot, loses against the run and against double teams. He’s a penetrating one gapper and will be valued as such by the FO.

 

You realize that moving him from 3 tech to a 1 tech is literally like 3.5 feet right? I'm sure he can play it just fine, and put up better numbers than Star.

 

9.5 sacks and 13 TFL says he can push the pocket better than anyone else on this team.

 

Most DT's do bad against double teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Turk71]

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Phillips never really jumped off the screen at me. So I wouldn't totally dispute the ratings. I felt Shaq Lawson made more of an impact. Not sure what PFF rated Shaq.

Shaq had a 68.3 rating which is in the 'good' range.

[Putin]

15 hours ago, sven233 said:

The eyeball test says he was a pretty good pass rusher, but while he did make a lot of plays on his own, some of the sack production he had was the direct result of someone else pushing the play and Phillips finishing it up.  Also, in my opinion, for someone his size, he was pretty bad against the run. 

 

I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I am not re-signing him for anything more than 7.5 at the very most.  I think he is a 6-7 million dollar player.  I think there may be a team or 2 that looks at the sack numbers and overpays him.  I don't want to be that team, especially with Horrible Harry coming back.  He was our best lineman when he was playing early.

I disagree I think a lot of people WOULD agree with you 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

16 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

The sack numbers were great, but even if PFF is a joke, there has to be SOME merit in their analysis no?

 

PFF gives Jordan Phillips an overall grade of 51.8, which ranks 153rd out of 197 defensive linemen in the league. His pass-rush grade of 60.5 ranks 94th among defensive linemen. Of Phillips' 583 snaps in 2019, 362 were in pass rush (putting him 40th among D-linemen) and 218 were against the run, according to PFF. He played 52.4% of the Bills' defensive snaps.

 

they are garbage, Phillips did more than sacks. The more i see PFF the more i laugh and know they are worthless.

 

 

[ProcessTruster]

19 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

He's a rotational D lineman who does not play well against the run  Probably will get a nice payday hopefully somewhere else

agree.  great Job by Beane bringing him in and having him here when HorribleHarry went down.   Good GM work.  Let someone else pay him and good for him.

18 hours ago, TroutDog said:

It’s not just PFF: all of the All-22 reviews I read during the season basically said he was a liability in the run game for stretches. The Athletic pointed it out regularly. 

yep.  strong rotational 3rd down guy.   but he wants to get paid like Aaron Donald.  so that ain't happening.  so they will part ways.  I want horrible harry and Ed Oliver in the middle with Star anyway.  all good

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

If he can find top 3 DT money elsewhere, he should take it. 
 

if he finds he can and accept a deal that fits his role in Buffalo, maybe he’s back. 
 

 

[TigerJ]

23 hours ago, sven233 said:

The eyeball test says he was a pretty good pass rusher, but while he did make a lot of plays on his own, some of the sack production he had was the direct result of someone else pushing the play and Phillips finishing it up.  Also, in my opinion, for someone his size, he was pretty bad against the run. 

 

I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I am not re-signing him for anything more than 7.5 at the very most.  I think he is a 6-7 million dollar player.  I think there may be a team or 2 that looks at the sack numbers and overpays him.  I don't want to be that team, especially with Horrible Harry coming back.  He was our best lineman when he was playing early.

I'm with you.  He's a contributor to be sure, but the Bills already have a lot of money tied up in the defensive line.  It's true that most of us fans think Lotulelei is over paid, but buffalo also has a budding star in Oliver and Harrison Phillips was looking like he was taking a big step forward when he got hurt.  All of those factors mean not as much money is available to re-sign a player who is a liability in run defense.

[34-78-83]

Was Phillips a bit overrated after this season? Yes.

Was he truly anywhere near as poor as the 150 something best DT in the game? Goodness no.

Does PFF compare 3 tech and 1 tech stats under the same measure? IDK

I watch the whole league being a football junkie that I am... I'd put him somewhere around top 25 to 35 DT's this season based on his intelligence at the position and productivity. We play a scheme that calls for a constant team effort, which is going to really skew some folks stats (different players year to year). I'd like to retain him for sure! but not at top 10 DT money is all.