What Did McDermott Mean By Saying “We Let Too Many Leaders Out of The Building” in Carolina

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Yeah. I'm sure they're going to lock up Hyde and Poyer and make them retire Bills. I wonder if we see matching extensions this offseason.

 

OH, now that's an intriguing thought.  One question is "how do you Pay Poyer without de-motivating other players on the secondary?"

If Poyer thinks he should be paid as a top-10 and Hyde is still just outside top 20 for two more years, that's where this extending guys under contract thing gets tricky, very tricky.

 

That would be an answer.

 

8 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

What good is continuity with Lee Smith and Pat DiMarco??

 

The thread is about what McDermott meant.  I'm telling you what McDermott meant.  Go laugh at McDermott.

 

ST likes Pat DiMarco.  I haven't spent much time watching - he's R4 or L4 I think, along with 'Zo but we've already lost 'Zo.  He's also valued for his leadership.

Smith is still the best blocking TE we have and no one else to date has shown better, including Kroft.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

What process are Smith and DiMarco contributing to on Offense?  Having "good guys" and "leaders" is fine, but they don't produce any value in games. 

 

Look, Smith wouldn't be on the field for 30% of the offensive snaps if Daboll didn't believe he contributed value in games - at least, more value than anyone else on the team right now, he wouldn't be on the field.  It's that simple.  His value does not lie in his catch percentage (80%, 4 of 5) his TD (1) or his 1st downs (2).  He's also on the field for ~1 of 5 ST snaps.

 

Dimarco's snap counts have fallen on ST (>50% last year, 37% in 2019) but that's principally why he's on the team.  He played 17% of the offensive snaps.  Again,  if the coaches didn't think he brought value to the field, he wouldn't be on it.

[Mr. WEO]

 

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OH, now that's an intriguing thought.  One question is "how do you Pay Poyer without de-motivating other players on the secondary?"

If Poyer thinks he should be paid as a top-10 and Hyde is still just outside top 20 for two more years, that's where this extending guys under contract thing gets tricky, very tricky.

 

That would be an answer.

 

 

The thread is about what McDermott meant.  I'm telling you what McDermott meant.  Go laugh at McDermott.

 

ST likes Pat DiMarco.  I haven't spent much time watching - he's R4 or L4 I think, along with 'Zo but we've already lost 'Zo.  He's also valued for his leadership.

Smith is still the best blocking TE we have and no one else to date has shown better, including Kroft.

 

I think it's time to move the Offense solidly into the 2020's and not be the Offense that needs to employ an old TE who just blocks.

 

How did that work out anyway?

[Gray Beard]

You need leaders to help the young guys...

in the film room. 

during practice.

not get too high or too low during games.

behave like professionals off the field.

take care of their bodies.

etc.

 

 

So you have a few guys like DiMarco or Smith who aren’t splashy during games, but they provide value to the team in other ways.  They don’t cost money, but they cost a few roster spots.  The brain trust at OBD thinks the trade off is worthwhile.  I don’t have a problem with that. 

[Mr. WEO]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Look, Smith wouldn't be on the field for 30% of the offensive snaps if Daboll didn't believe he contributed value in games - at least, more value than anyone else on the team right now, he wouldn't be on the field.  It's that simple.  His value does not lie in his catch percentage (80%, 4 of 5) his TD (1) or his 1st downs (2).  He's also on the field for ~1 of 5 ST snaps.

 

Dimarco's snap counts have fallen on ST (>50% last year, 37% in 2019) but that's principally why he's on the team.  He played 17% of the offensive snaps.  Again,  if the coaches didn't think he brought value to the field, he wouldn't be on it.

 

It's obvious McD thinks that these guys bring value.  The discussion is whether that thinking is useful anymore, given the results.  This is a coaching staff that didn't think their most dynamic player not named Josh Allen only deserved 13 touches in a playoff game.

[BigBillsFan]

It means if we get more Lee Smiths I SMELL SUPERBOWL

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Gray Beard said:

You need leaders to help the young guys...

in the film room. 

during practice.

 

not get too high or too low during games.

behave like professionals off the field.

take care of their bodies.

etc.

 

 

So you have a few guys like DiMarco or Smith who aren’t splashy during games, but they provide value to the team in other ways.  They don’t cost money, but they cost a few roster spots.  The brain trust at OBD thinks the trade off is worthwhile.  I don’t have a problem with that. 

 

 

How many process (only) guys are on the 49ers?  Chiefs?  Titans?

[Dave Allen]

Veteran leaders/ process guys have a value that extends past what we see them do on the field. If they're in the locker room teaching the young'uns how to be process guys also, then they are worth the extra money. There were several other teams that had more talent (on paper) and couldn't/wouldn't step up because they had no culture, no leadership (coughcoughdallascough). That's what leadership is worth. 

[Gray Beard]

5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

How many process (only) guys are on the 49ers?  Chiefs?  Titans?

Some of those teams are fortunate enough to have process guys who are still producing at a high level.  Tight ends seem to be a common denominator.  I think the staff originally thought the process guys on the Bills were capable of producing, and a few of them will be jettisoned in the off season. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

31 minutes ago, BigBillsFan said:

It means if we get more Lee Smiths I SMELL SUPERBOWL

 

 

...sounds like a sinus infection bud............

[Mr. WEO]

19 minutes ago, Gray Beard said:

Some of those teams are fortunate enough to have process guys who are still producing at a high level.  Tight ends seem to be a common denominator.  I think the staff originally thought the process guys on the Bills were capable of producing, and a few of them will be jettisoned in the off season. 

 

What other coaching staff would have looked at Smith ans DiMarco and thought they were still capable of producing?

 

Swap these guys out of their spotless game day unis and put them in Underarmour polo shirts and khakis and call them Offensive Efficiency Assistant Coaches.

 

Go get some playmakers.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, JoPoy88 said:

I think the Bills already have young leaders in Allen and Tre and Edmunds so the issue is moot. I really don’t think this team needs to carry guys just for veteran leadership anymore. They did this season and maybe those guys like Gore and Lorax did steward the young talent to what they accomplished. Now they know. And now it’s time. Losing those vets shouldn’t hurt the team at all.

 

That's an interesting point.

 

But given what McDermott said about "letting to many leaders out of the building" the conclusion would seem be he doesn't quite agree with you yet.  Lorax and Gore are gone, but I think he still wants players like Lotulelei (esp. if they can't resign Phillips), Smith (esp. if they move on from Kroft), and DiMarco (esp. if Gore is gone)

Edmunds and Tre, going to their first probowl, seem like they're well on their way to having mastered their craft.  Are they ready to step up and call out a teammate who is underperforming?  To say "Matt - it doesn't matter *****-all if you fly to the QB or fly to the ball if you don't WRAP HIM UP and HANG ON, you feel me?"  Would Edmunds call out a DLman?  Don't know yet, but something I see in their demeanor looks promising.

I don't think Allen is at the point of being able to be a team leader yet.  It's not that he doesn't show leadership at times, because he does.  It's that he's still (we hope) at the developing stage of his craft.  He admits to being "jittery" before games.  He tries to do too much.  He spends too much time in his press conferences saying he's got to find more completions and get the ball to Singletary more.  It's hard to run up and down the sideline encouraging others when you know too much about all the crap you're doing wrong.  Let's hope he takes that step this off season to where he can be that guy.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's an interesting point.

 

But given what McDermott said about "letting to many leaders out of the building" the conclusion would seem be he doesn't quite agree with you yet.  Lorax and Gore are gone, but I think he still wants players like Lotulelei (esp. if they can't resign Phillips), Smith (esp. if they move on from Kroft), and DiMarco (esp. if Gore is gone)

Edmunds and Tre, going to their first probowl, seem like they're well on their way to having mastered their craft.  Are they ready to step up and call out a teammate who is underperforming?  To say "Matt - it doesn't matter *****-all if you fly to the QB or fly to the ball if you don't WRAP HIM UP and HANG ON, you feel me?"  Would Edmunds call out a DLman?  Don't know yet, but something I see in their demeanor looks promising.

I don't think Allen is at the point of being able to be a team leader yet.  It's not that he doesn't show leadership at times, because he does.  It's that he's still (we hope) at the developing stage of his craft.  He admits to being "jittery" before games.  He tries to do too much.  He spends too much time in his press conferences saying he's got to find more completions and get the ball to Singletary more.  It's hard to run up and down the sideline encouraging others when you know too much about all the crap you're doing wrong.  Let's hope he takes that step this off season to where he can be that guy.

 

...agree that he values veteran leadership and it makes sense.....but, isn't it a fair expectation that the vet must also be a contributor on the field when called upon (NOT spot duty)?.....even if at worst, it is a 50/50 percentage?.....go back to the days of Bobby April and special teams.........he had WAY too much say in the final 53.......when the injury bug hit, virtually NONE of his guys could fill in at their natural positions......that woeful imbalance had Jauron shopping at Walmart for bodies....

[Hapless Bills Fan]

48 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

How many process (only) guys are on the 49ers?  Chiefs?  Titans?

 

If a guy is getting on the field for 1/3 to 1/5 of the snaps over the Young Sahibs, how do you conclude he's a "process only" guy?

 

But to answer your own question: go sort the respective rosters by age.  Look for a guy towards the end of his career, 28-32, who is not a kicker punter or long snapper and who is getting 15-33% of the snaps on offense or ST.  Looks like a handful to me.

6 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...agree that he values veteran leadership and it makes sense.....but, isn't it a fair expectation that the vet must also be a contributor on the field when called upon (NOT spot duty)?.....even if at worst, it is a 50/50 percentage?.....go back to the days of Bobby April and special teams.........he had WAY too much say in the final 53.......when the injury bug hit, virtually NONE of his guys could fill in at their natural positions......that woeful imbalance had Jauron shopping at Walmart for bodies....

 

Absolutely vet must contribute, but 30-37% isn't "spot duty"

 

I think they were disappointed in the # of false start penalties Smith had and the couple of targets Dimarco didn't haul in, and it's possible they may be gone esp if they want to keep Kroft around.  But those guys are still on the field ~1/3 of the snaps because they are seen as contributing on the field better than the other choices who were there at the end of preseason or available to be brought in.  Period.

 

I do think Heath Farwell may be in the position of "to whom much is given, much is expected" - I think ST has not performed as expected for getting the extra say in bodies he's gotten, BUT I think Beane did say something about needing to bring in more and better ST contributors - so we'll see.  I'm of your opinion that we have too many guys on the offensive side of the roster who are there for ST and not pulling their weight at their natural positions.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

If a guy is getting on the field for 1/3 to 1/5 of the snaps over the Young Sahibs, how do you conclude he's a "process only" guy?

 

But to answer your own question: go sort the respective rosters by age.  Look for a guy towards the end of his career, 28-32, who is not a kicker punter or long snapper and who is getting 15-33% of the snaps on offense or ST.  Looks like a handful to me.

 

Absolutely vet must contribute, but 30-37% isn't "spot duty"

 

I think they were disappointed in the # of false start penalties Smith had and the couple of targets Dimarco didn't haul in, and it's possible they may be gone esp if they want to keep Kroft around.  But those guys are still on the field ~1/3 of the snaps because they are seen as contributing on the field better than the other choices who were there at the end of preseason or available to be brought in.  Period.

 

I do think Heath Farwell may be in the position of "to whom much is given, much is expected" - I think ST has not performed as expected for getting the extra say in bodies he's gotten, BUT I think Beane did say something about needing to bring in more and better ST contributors - so we'll see.  I'm of your opinion that we have too many guys on the offensive side of the roster who are there for ST and not pulling their weight at their natural positions.

 

 

....think that perhaps TBD negative opinions about them may be influenced or amplified by the number of mistakes happening relative to your percentage of contribution...dumb penalties (especially FS) are inexcusable.....drops are a lesser gaffe...they happen IMO....can't buy that they're getting "rusty" because of 70-63% (flip side of your number) on the bench....

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's obvious McD thinks that these guys bring value.  The discussion is whether that thinking is useful anymore, given the results.  This is a coaching staff that didn't think their most dynamic player not named Josh Allen only deserved 13 touches in a playoff game.

Yeah, none of this gives one confidence that the head coach really understood the lesson of last season which ought to be the offense needs more playmakers and still needs better talent on the o-line. You can fill some of those gaps with rookies, but you ought to be spending free agent dollars to boost the offense while the fella you think is going to be a franchise qb is playing on a rookie contract. (And, btw, the best way to ensure he becomes that franchise qb is to put some veteran o-lineman with superior talent at RT and G, and add maybe a TE like Hooper who won't drop a ton of passes, and maybe another veteran wr to pair with a top wideout and another young rb in the draft.) I don't worry about upgrading at edge and cb on the defensive side because I think McDermott is going to see what needs fixing on that side of the ball.

[Chaos]

I think McDermott teams and the Bills games reflect a style of solid, safe and comfortable.  He wants to have a certain number of players that help him be in his comfort zone.  He has had decent success taking the Bills from being a doormat to being a playoff caliber team.   Its not clear if this style of play will take the team to being championship caliber. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 minute ago, Chaos said:

I think McDermott teams and the Bills games reflect a style of solid, safe and comfortable.  He wants to have a certain number of players that help him be in his comfort zone.  He has had decent success taking the Bills from being a doormat to being a playoff caliber team.   Its not clear if this style of play will take the team to being championship caliber. 

 

 

and to his credit, he has forged an all inclusive "we're in" environment....Bickering Bills idea is LONG gone......yet plenty of clubs are faced with that  nonsense currently.....in a "high paying big boyz league", stroking/massaging egos is pure BS.....employment is a privilege afforded to 1,696 annually and not a right......

[Chaos]

6 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

More like took the team from mediocre to slightly above mediocre. 

12  /32 teams make the playoffs.  Simply making the playoffs is only a bit above average. 

[Bob in STL]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

How many process (only) guys are on the 49ers?  Chiefs?  Titans?

Probably more than a few.  Leadership should never be underestimated.   It would be great if the leadership came from the core starting players but the Bills team development is just 3 years and not there yet.  Think back to Kelly, Hull, Talley, Smith - it took years for them to fully take the reins as leaders.    
 

Allen, Edmunds and other in the young core are still very young to take that role on.   They learn it from guys like Lorenzo, DiMarco, Gore, etc.