Did the lack of production from Jones/Foster/Kroft hamper Daboll & the offense?

[3rdand12]

22 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Every OC will have those moments in every game. 

 

The biggest reason I didn't sour on Daboll this year is because he allowed Allen control of the offense. They allowed him to be a franchise QB. He was making protection calls and pre snap checks. Allen made plenty of mistakes with this freedom but that's the only way to learn. That's another reason I didn't want Allen learning another offense year 3. 

Allen just missed those long throws. I don't think there's anything more to it then just poor accuracy. He'll work on it and hopefully fix it. 

We fans are looking at results on the field and play to play.
There certainly is more that the OC provides to his/her offense.
Development is something we can see.

But how all that is implemented and maintained and then improved is something we cannot see.

 The way all the Coaches interact and help each other grow and execute as a Group is big deal. Comes from the top. Have some faith in Daboll and what he is building.
some reason he was getting interviews : )

[3rdand12]

29 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Nope.  I don't think we disagree that much about needed changes in personnel, either - it's just that the things I see as the biggest needed improvements on O don't *require* personnel changes, so those flow to the top of my list if that makes sense.

 

One of the things I'm looking at now is the depth of Josh's drops and how that may be contributing to pass protection problems off the edge.  I don't think he's as consistent there as he needs to be, and I think he's sometimes too deep, which can make pass protection harder for the tackles.  But still making my way through.

 

 

I don't think I said anything about this?  So I'm not sure what you're addressing here.

 

But since you bring it up....it can be a very good thing for Josh to extend the play with his legs and make the throw, but only if he's able to use good technique and make a good throw.  Otherwise, take the short quick hit more often.

 

It's a great thing to be so good on 3rd and long conversions, but it's a better thing to avoid 3rd and long or even 3rd down.

 

 

 

 

The way Josh drops is a really good observation.Lets hope he and his guards can work on that timing and awareness in pass pro. H had some darned nice pockets during the season,

I have some faith these details will be coached up 

[Augie]

On 1/18/2020 at 11:00 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is exactly where I started a thread asking "can someone explain the Kroft love to me?"  Right now he's the 8th highest cap hit on the Bills after Micah Hyde and before Josh Allen, due $6.6M in 2020.  We're on the hook for $3M of that on the 3rd day of the league year.  Why does Kroft get this slack?  Why do we need to see more to judge? 

 

Kroft had one kind of decent year for the Bengals (his third) then got injured the next year and didn't take it anywhere.  This is not a new pattern.  In college, he had a good redshirt sophomore (3rd) season at Rutgers then didn't take it anywhere.  He actually saw his targets cut as a Junior and got an award for it  (not kidding - "Loyal Knight" award, look it up!).  We saw him finally get on the field for the Bills, get 50% of the snaps vs Philly and get 2 receptions on 4 targets.  Snaps promptly cut.  OK, maybe tried to come back too soon.  Jets game end of season, 47% of the snaps, 1 reception on 4 targets and on that reception, he turned upfield and ran like moving through jello - the "Anti-Angry Run".  He was on the field vs. Houston to be a better blocker than Knox who might actually handle Mercilus.  His was the first, biggest whiff on the play that led to the Allen fumble.  If you're being paid $6.6M as a 6'6" 252 lb (Ha!) TE and you catch 6 out of 14 targets with a 7% drop rate, when you're asked to block a 6'4" 258 lb DE you better at least slow him down long enough for help to arrive.

 

OK, maybe he's still injured and loyally tried to get back on the field too soon, and he needs full health to see what he can do.  Others have commented that when Kroft came back on the field from all the injuries, he looked out of shape.  I thought so too.   The Bills are supposed to have great rehab equipment.  They should have zero-G treadmills for aerobic fitness and he should be able to do upper body work and keep his diet right so he comes back looking more like Dawson Knox  or Zo Alexander than "Dad Bod" seen at Planet Fitness.  Dad Bod it was.

 

Beane signed him to (relatively) big bucks because they thought he was a good player trapped in a backup role and ready to take a big step. I think he showed he's a backup stuck in a backup role who is "loyal" about it and not fierce enough about wanting to step up, get out there, and make a difference in the game.  I think that's what his college career and his career with the Bengals shows.  Now we've seen it here too.  Lots of potential, no fire in his gut.  Cut him, eat the $1.6M cap hit, and bring in someone who wants it more.

 

We badly need a difference-making TE who is sure handed and gets open quickly as an outlet for Allen.

 

I have ZERO problem if they decide to move on, but I think we need to see what happens in camp while still looking for better alternatives. I knew he was expensive, but honestly didn’t realize his cap hit was so high.  Let’s see if he can show he’s worth something in that range. If not, and we have some better options, bye-bye....

 

On a related note: I hope Knox learns to catch the ball and figures out who needs to be blocked. There is something very fun and exciting about his upside (and equally frustrating about his ugly downside). 

 

 

.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Augie

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

On 1/17/2020 at 8:38 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'd call him the #3, but the point stands

 

OK I'll agree he has the ability of a #3, but then who is the number 2?  No one?  

 

Or are you implying Beasley?  I'll agree he was the 2nd most effective, but don't think you're in very good shape if your slot guy is your #2.

[Ayjent]

On 1/17/2020 at 12:34 PM, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

The Offense showed flashes but did not do anything consistently good, so your question is a fair one and one that I'd say is more broadly personnel vs. coaching (playcalling).  It's both, and that's always going to be the case, but I think you can point to certain aspects being more personnel and other aspects being more coaching (playcalling).

 

First, Josh took a step forward and looked in control in a lot of games and is clearly a leader on the team and the guy that his teammates love.  He's obviously still on the learning curve and he could improve in some of his decision-making even though he progressed a lot during this season.  His deep ball accuracy was an issue for much of the year but started to get a better feel at the end of the year.  His accuracy is still inconsistent, but he starting to show signs of streaks where he puts together a lot of accurate throws.  I'm not sure he is ever going to be the type of guy to have a 500 yard passing day in a shoot out, much less a consistent 300 yard passer, but that's not a necessary thing if the Offense has a strong run game, which he also part of.  The fact that Josh is showing progress while dealing with constantly adaptive game planning is pretty impressive, but I think is also making the learning curve a little longer.  It is debatable whether this is exactly what he needs because some could argue it is allowing him time to develop and succeed while an argue it is holding his progress back some.  I don't know myself - looks like a little of both because he looks like a guy that wants to let it all fly, but can be a bit reckless, and sometimes you feel like he could do more but it is being coached out.  Ultimately, I think they are doing a pretty good job with developing him, but I get concerned that they may never loosen the reigns enough.

 

So lets get to Daboll, I get adapting to your opponent, but that is a double edged sword and is complicated for players.  Football is a high IQ sport if you want it to be, or a low IQ sport if you want it to be depending on how you play.  What I mean is that you can have coaches who basically have a philosophy of this is what we do and we don't care what the other team tries doing, we do this well and if you stop us good on you - it's low IQ, but it doesn't mean that it is ineffective.  Some people call that identity.  That has limited success in the NFL, but IMHO every NFL team should have some of that, and many teams will put window dressing on the same plays to try to fool the defense from identifying the play and/or tendencies pre snap.  It can and does work though.  I'm sure that the Bills do some of it, but haven't really broken down their plays enough to see if they do.  The Bills are very adaptive in their offensive philosophy and that is a high IQ offense, but sometimes I wonder if it they do it too much with young skill position players like Allen, Singletary, Foster, and Knox.  To some extent you need your bread and butter, and the Bills really never developed anything that was a bread and butter play.  Look at the teams in it now - they know who to lean on when they need to move the ball and maybe that's because they have stars that they can rely on.  Sometimes you create stars when you create plays that work well frequently, but you can also claim the player makes it possible.  It's a chicken or egg argument, but that is part of coaching and playcalling - identifying what is difficult for everyone to stop no matter what they are doing.  For those old enough to remember the Nintendo game Tecmo Bowl - you know the unstoppable plays - a complete oversimplification, but the premise holds.  Kittles on an intermediate In route, Davante Adams on a crossing route, Travis Kelce making a contested catch over the middle on a timing comeback route, Derrick Henry up the middle.  Each team has something that has carried them - but its a combination of the player and playcalling.  Daboll frustrates me sometimes because they seem to lack any kind of go to when they need it, other than Josh making some amazing play with either his feet or arm while extending a play.  That's all fine, but imagine how much better the offense could be if you had Josh's ability paired with something that was consistently working.

 

Finally, with respect to personnel, I think they had a hope that Foster and Jones would step up with extra guys being brought in and that it would bring out the best in them.  Knox ended up being a real pleasant surprise for the team, and if he can improve from this year then that is a really good find.  However, with the WRs the progression didn't happen for either Foster or Jones and Beasley and Brown became the main focus of the passing game.  I just don't think Jones is anything more than a marginal NFL talent and that happens sometimes when a guy from a middling program is a focal point puts up good numbers and shows certain attributes but then just can't play nearly as effective when the talent level they face is better.  The weirdest thing about him is how shaky his hands were and how sure they were in college.  I don't think that would make much of a difference anyhow in his career, but it certainly wouldn't hurt if he were more surehanded.  Foster seems to have found his calling on special teams, but as a WR he regressed.  I'm not sure that they used him effectively either, because his speed on that sweep pass and when they designed him to get the ball in space was pretty impressive.  They looked like they'd found something to get him involved in the Offense again and it just evaporated and they never went back to it.  That was frustrating to watch for me, and made me scratch my head with Daboll's calling.  Like I said sometimes I think he is getting too cute with being adaptive.  Kroft was injured and honestly I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Bills ditch him because they have younger, cheaper options that may be better.   The one personnel thing that I think they really need to continue working on improving is the OL.  Yes it was much better, and overall they are pretty decent, but they aren't consistent nor dominant.  I like who they brought in, but I do think when you get FAs like they did, they are bridge players and that you ultimately want guys you draft that become dominant.  Maybe they draft an interior guy and a Tackle this year.  I know it's not sexy, but Morse is likely one concussion from calling it a career, and the Bills still don't have a solid answer at RT and Dawkins is up for FA soon.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

It’s funny how people think the OC has no say in the offensive personnel, especially with Foster.  Maybe the guy who has been a bottom top 10 Nfl OC his whole career just isn’t a good OC.

 

I don't think he has no say, but I'll counter that when it comes to the game day roster, I think there are 3 coordinators with different priorities, and McDermott gets the final vote.  It's funny how people think that the OC gets whatever he wants as far as personnel.

[Hampton Josh fan]

These guys gave Josh few options other than Smoke. The other problem was they were reluctant to call passing plays after they got leads so Josh became predictable with running the ball late in games.If Dabol doesn't open this offense up with incorporating Devin in  screens and spreading the ball around using hopefully a big play receiver they add, we will not take advantage of a promising young QB while he's cheap. Sean has to also show a more aggressive offensive mindset, because depending on the defense to hold some of the teams on our schedule under 20 is foolish. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, Ayjent said:

The Offense showed flashes but did not do anything consistently good, so your question is a fair one and one that I'd say is more broadly personnel vs. coaching (playcalling).  It's both, and that's always going to be the case, but I think you can point to certain aspects being more personnel and other aspects being more coaching (playcalling).

 

First, Josh took a step forward and looked in control in a lot of games and is clearly a leader on the team and the guy that his teammates love.  He's obviously still on the learning curve and he could improve in some of his decision-making even though he progressed a lot during this season.  His deep ball accuracy was an issue for much of the year but started to get a better feel at the end of the year.  His accuracy is still inconsistent, but he starting to show signs of streaks where he puts together a lot of accurate throws.  I'm not sure he is ever going to be the type of guy to have a 500 yard passing day in a shoot out, much less a consistent 300 yard passer, but that's not a necessary thing if the Offense has a strong run game, which he also part of.  The fact that Josh is showing progress while dealing with constantly adaptive game planning is pretty impressive, but I think is also making the learning curve a little longer.  It is debatable whether this is exactly what he needs because some could argue it is allowing him time to develop and succeed while an argue it is holding his progress back some.  I don't know myself - looks like a little of both because he looks like a guy that wants to let it all fly, but can be a bit reckless, and sometimes you feel like he could do more but it is being coached out.  Ultimately, I think they are doing a pretty good job with developing him, but I get concerned that they may never loosen the reigns enough.

 

So lets get to Daboll, I get adapting to your opponent, but that is a double edged sword and is complicated for players.  Football is a high IQ sport if you want it to be, or a low IQ sport if you want it to be depending on how you play.  What I mean is that you can have coaches who basically have a philosophy of this is what we do and we don't care what the other team tries doing, we do this well and if you stop us good on you - it's low IQ, but it doesn't mean that it is ineffective.  Some people call that identity.  That has limited success in the NFL, but IMHO every NFL team should have some of that, and many teams will put window dressing on the same plays to try to fool the defense from identifying the play and/or tendencies pre snap.  It can and does work though.  I'm sure that the Bills do some of it, but haven't really broken down their plays enough to see if they do.  The Bills are very adaptive in their offensive philosophy and that is a high IQ offense, but sometimes I wonder if it they do it too much with young skill position players like Allen, Singletary, Foster, and Knox.  To some extent you need your bread and butter, and the Bills really never developed anything that was a bread and butter play.  Look at the teams in it now - they know who to lean on when they need to move the ball and maybe that's because they have stars that they can rely on.  Sometimes you create stars when you create plays that work well frequently, but you can also claim the player makes it possible.  It's a chicken or egg argument, but that is part of coaching and playcalling - identifying what is difficult for everyone to stop no matter what they are doing.  For those old enough to remember the Nintendo game Tecmo Bowl - you know the unstoppable plays - a complete oversimplification, but the premise holds.  Kittles on an intermediate In route, Davante Adams on a crossing route, Travis Kelce making a contested catch over the middle on a timing comeback route, Derrick Henry up the middle.  Each team has something that has carried them - but its a combination of the player and playcalling.  Daboll frustrates me sometimes because they seem to lack any kind of go to when they need it, other than Josh making some amazing play with either his feet or arm while extending a play.  That's all fine, but imagine how much better the offense could be if you had Josh's ability paired with something that was consistently working.

 

Finally, with respect to personnel, I think they had a hope that Foster and Jones would step up with extra guys being brought in and that it would bring out the best in them.  Knox ended up being a real pleasant surprise for the team, and if he can improve from this year then that is a really good find.  However, with the WRs the progression didn't happen for either Foster or Jones and Beasley and Brown became the main focus of the passing game.  I just don't think Jones is anything more than a marginal NFL talent and that happens sometimes when a guy from a middling program is a focal point puts up good numbers and shows certain attributes but then just can't play nearly as effective when the talent level they face is better.  The weirdest thing about him is how shaky his hands were and how sure they were in college.  I don't think that would make much of a difference anyhow in his career, but it certainly wouldn't hurt if he were more surehanded.  Foster seems to have found his calling on special teams, but as a WR he regressed.  I'm not sure that they used him effectively either, because his speed on that sweep pass and when they designed him to get the ball in space was pretty impressive.  They looked like they'd found something to get him involved in the Offense again and it just evaporated and they never went back to it.  That was frustrating to watch for me, and made me scratch my head with Daboll's calling.  Like I said sometimes I think he is getting too cute with being adaptive.  Kroft was injured and honestly I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Bills ditch him because they have younger, cheaper options that may be better.   The one personnel thing that I think they really need to continue working on improving is the OL.  Yes it was much better, and overall they are pretty decent, but they aren't consistent nor dominant.  I like who they brought in, but I do think when you get FAs like they did, they are bridge players and that you ultimately want guys you draft that become dominant.  Maybe they draft an interior guy and a Tackle this year.  I know it's not sexy, but Morse is likely one concussion from calling it a career, and the Bills still don't have a solid answer at RT and Dawkins is up for FA soon.

 

This is a really really good post.  I hate to copy long posts, but I also hate to edit any of it out.

 

I think last year (2018) was as much "streamline and simplify" year for the Bills as Daboll is going to buy into.  There were a lot of blocking concepts the Bills simply couldn't execute last year, and Castillo or Daboll tried extensive cut blocking to compensate, which wound up blowing chunks because they weren't good at cut blocking either.  And Allen was raw as raw could be.  It took Daboll something like 5 games (Titans) to sort out what they could and couldn't do, then he got hurt.  So when he came back, they split W/L evenly and that was progress.  But this year Daboll had enough personnel that he was not gonna "streamline and simplify".  I look at it as equivalent to a child who grows up in a bilingual home.  Most of them show delayed speech.  They don't talk as early or as much as monolingual kids.  But then when they do start talking, not only are they fluent in two languages, but they're able to judge when to speak each language.  That's fundamentally what Daboll is asking Allen and the WR and OL to do this year.  Bilingual or Bust, baby.

 

Foster last year (2018) was used in a limited "Go Get Em!" role.  Even there, I wasn't a fan of his ball tracking and adjustment skills.  But Allen would heave it hard, and Foster would run as hard as he could, and the two connected 6 out of 10 times, which is great .  This year, Foster was asked to master the entire playbook to get on the field, and I think he's struggling Big Time to do that.  I think John Brown struggles at times.  A playbook that is so complex it limits the guys you can put in your system is a double edged sword, for sure.  When I hear Beane talking about needing to evaluate how intelligent the WR in the draft are because Daboll's playbook is very complex, it raises an eyebrow.

 

Allen worked very hard on his short/intermediate passing and it showed (but may have been to the detriment of his deep ball technique).  At the end of the season - starting about the Ravens game - he seemed to regress.  I've gone back and looked at the beginning of the season and he was making some throws early with touch and arc that he simply wasn't later in the season. Either he was working through one or more unreported injuries (he clearly sprained his L ankle in the Ravens game when Morse stepped on it, and you can see it taped in practice photos prior to the Steelers game), or the pressure exerted by the better defenses made him revert.  That, to me, is 100% the question with Josh: can he fix his footwork and technique in a solid enough way that will hold up against the pressure a big time D brings and the hindrance of inevitable injuries?  Most QB don't look so good when they're under heavy pressure - we saw Big Time reversion from Lamar Jackson against Tennessee.

 

Which brings us to the other part of your post - the OL.  I'm 100% with you that the Bills need to draft OL.  We have an improved, but not a dominant or consistent OL.  Feliciano is only OK as a center, there's a fall-off from Morse (and/or fall off from Mongo to Long at R guard).  Elite FA OLmen are a mixed bag - by the time a guy gets to FA if he's good, he's got a lot of wear and tear on him.  The bridge players we brought in are often guys who were available because their teams upgraded.  So yes, draft a guy we think can be our next Eric Wood if he's there, someone who can be a guard now and develop into a center.

 

To me, this is as or more important than landing a top WR, though if the talent is deep there we should try for both.

 

[3rdand12]

3 hours ago, Hampton Josh fan said:

These guys gave Josh few options other than Smoke. The other problem was they were reluctant to call passing plays after they got leads so Josh became predictable with running the ball late in games.If Dabol doesn't open this offense up with incorporating Devin in  screens and spreading the ball around using hopefully a big play receiver they add, we will not take advantage of a promising young QB while he's cheap. Sean has to also show a more aggressive offensive mindset, because depending on the defense to hold some of the teams on our schedule under 20 is foolish. 

The pass blocking was up and down. And the Line was the focus perhaps?
Protect your most precious asset.
Allen was getting killed year before. McBeanes brought in about 15 linemen past season to raise that bar immediately higher.

 Beasley Brown Kroft and drafting Singletary were all nice upgrades.

 and they are ALL new to the team.

 And new to Allen.

Josh takes another step forward this season ? and we will see those dump offs and 3 checkdown. Plus  called screens.

Key area to improve

 

some very good posts in this thread btw ^

[3rdand12]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is a really really good post.  I hate to copy long posts, but I also hate to edit any of it out.

 

I think last year was as much "streamline and simplify" year for the Bills as Daboll is going to buy into.  There were a lot of blocking concepts the Bills simply couldn't execute last year, and Castillo or Daboll tried extensive cut blocking to compensate, which wound up blowing chunks because they weren't good at cut blocking either.  And Allen was raw as raw could be.  It took Daboll something like 5 games (Titans) to sort out what they could and couldn't do, then he got hurt.  So when he came back, they split W/L evenly and that was progress.  But this year Daboll had enough personnel that he was not gonna "streamline and simplify".  I look at it as equivalent to a child who grows up in a bilingual home.  Most of them show delayed speech.  They don't talk as early or as much as monolingual kids.  But then when they do start talking, not only are they fluent in two languages, but they're able to judge when to speak each language.  That's fundamentally what Daboll is asking Allen and the WR and OL to do this year.  Bilingual or Bust, baby.

 

Foster last year was used in a limited "Go Get Em!" role.  Even there, I wasn't a fan of his ball tracking and adjustment skills.  But Allen would heave it hard, and Foster would run as hard as he could, and the two connected 6 out of 10 times, which is great .  This year, Foster was asked to master the entire playbook to get on the field, and I think he's struggling Big Time to do that.  I think John Brown struggles at times.  A playbook that is so complex it limits the guys you can put in your system is a double edged sword, for sure.  When I hear Beane talking about needing to evaluate how intelligent the WR in the draft are because Daboll's playbook is very complex, it raises an eyebrow.

 

Allen worked very hard on his short/intermediate passing and it showed (but may have been to the detriment of his deep ball technique).  At the end of the season - starting about the Ravens game - he seemed to regress.  I've gone back and looked at the beginning of the season and he was making some throws early with touch and arc that he simply wasn't later in the season. Either he was working through one or more unreported injuries (he clearly sprained his L ankle in the Ravens game when Morse stepped on it, and you can see it taped in practice photos prior to the Steelers game), or the pressure exerted by the better defenses made him revert.  That, to me, is 100% the question with Josh: can he fix his footwork and technique in a solid enough way that will hold up against the pressure a big time D brings and the hindrance of inevitable injuries?  Most QB don't look so good when they're under heavy pressure - we saw Big Time reversion from Lamar Jackson against Tennessee.

 

Which brings us to the other part of your post - the OL.  I'm 100% with you that the Bills need to draft OL.  We have an improved, but not a dominant or consistent OL.  Feliciano is only OK as a center, there's a fall-off from Morse (and/or fall off from Mongo to Long at R guard).  Elite FA OLmen are a mixed bag - by the time a guy gets to FA if he's good, he's got a lot of wear and tear on him.  The bridge players we brought in are often guys who were available because their teams upgraded.  So yes, draft a guy we think can be our next Eric Wood if he's there, someone who can be a guard now and develop into a center.

 

To me, this is as or more important than landing a top WR, though if the talent is deep there we should try for both.

 

Speaking of good posts.
and copying whole post?
I wanted to highlight something you wrote. Because i have seen it 1st hand and it is such a good analogy from you.

 My two Grandsons from one daughter 3 and 5. Spoke Lao 1st and were mixing in english. Now if we do not understand the 3 year old? The 5 year old translates in english.
My oldest Grandaughter, 1.5 years  is learning Spanish faster than english. She recognizes all the words , but slow to speak them.
But like the boys, once they get a handle on it ? watch out.
The 5 year old is reading and writing and is a fantastic story teller.
You point of a delayed result is quite apt Hap. It's a fact.
and i agree with you and Ayjent on most all the points you each have touched upon

 Merci
 

[3rdand12]

I have said it multiple times.
Josh is the factor.
Not so much the Targets we have.

 Very good QBs make Ball Catchers look good.

He did regress. 

 He acted scared in a few games. Ravens he could not figure out what they were doing. And that may be Coaching. But he looked out of sorts  and unable to regain his steadiness a number of games.
and why they lost.

He is young , i love him and he is Our future.
Am very glad he and Daboll get another season together. Cuz Daboll wants to become a HC. and someone will make him that offer. By then Allen needs to be out of the nest and flying on his own.

 Go Bills

 Danke

[Hampton Josh fan]

29 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

The pass blocking was up and down. And the Line was the focus perhaps?
Protect your most precious asset.
Allen was getting killed year before. McBeanes brought in about 15 linemen past season to raise that bar immediately higher.

 Beasley Brown Kroft and drafting Singletary were all nice upgrades.

 and they are ALL new to the team.

 And new to Allen.

Josh takes another step forward this season ? and we will see those dump offs and 3 checkdown. Plus  called screens.

Key area to improve

 

some very good posts in this thread btw ^

Good points.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

48 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I have said it multiple times.
Josh is the factor.
Not so much the Targets we have.

 Very good QBs make Ball Catchers look good.

He did regress. 

 He acted scared in a few games. Ravens he could not figure out what they were doing. And that may be Coaching. But he looked out of sorts  and unable to regain his steadiness a number of games.
and why they lost.

He is young , i love him and he is Our future.
Am very glad he and Daboll get another season together. Cuz Daboll wants to become a HC. and someone will make him that offer. By then Allen needs to be out of the nest and flying on his own.

 Go Bills

 Danke

 

Well, we disagree.

[3rdand12]

On 1/19/2020 at 2:05 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, we disagree.

 Only because you are wrong.  LOL   : )
He absolutely became overwhelmed against Ravens and Pittsburgh's defenses .

Edited January 20, 2020 by 3rdand12

[billsfan89]

In the NFL you need 2 consistent high end quality receiving options plus 2-3 supplemental receiving options. The Bills only had 1 consistent high end receiving option in Brown and probably only 1-2 supplemental receiving options in Beasley and possibly Singletary out of the backfield once they got him going. That is simply not enough to put together a good quality NFL offense. They were counting on Kroft to be a complementary option for Allen to spread the ball around to and I think they had hoped that Jones or Foster would at worst be a decent complementary option to help ease things. They knew beyond Beasley and Brown they lacked a lot of options but were hoping that Kroft and others would help pick up the slack. Kroft got hurt and Foster/Jones never got it going, Mackenzie did a little here and there but was mostly a gadget player. 

 

The Bills need to desperately find a WR that can be a consistent factor in the passing game and they need to find another complementary option at tight end to help add diversification to the core (I like Knox but he needs another year to cook.) The Bills could only do so much in one off-season to fix the offense. They repaired the O-line heavily (with depth to boot) and added some weapons in the passing game and got a good young RB. But overall they need to get the proper weapons around Allen for 2020. 

[Thurman#1]

On 1/18/2020 at 2:34 AM, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

 

 

 

Mainly? That would be a no.

 

It certainly did have an impact, though, a big impact.

 

I don't know if there's one factor that's mainly responsible. It's a bunch of things, but Allen's progress and sticking points will be the biggest factor in our success or lack of it for the foreseeable future, as it was this year, IMO. But he was far from the only factor.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Thurman#1

[artmalibu]

At times the play calling sucked, and they were short a WR... 

 

I dont know if the play calling will be any better, but would bet they will improve their weapons. 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

In the NFL you need 2 consistent high end quality receiving options plus 2-3 supplemental receiving options. The Bills only had 1 consistent high end receiving option in Brown and probably only 1-2 supplemental receiving options in Beasley and possibly Singletary out of the backfield once they got him going. That is simply not enough to put together a good quality NFL offense. They were counting on Kroft to be a complementary option for Allen to spread the ball around to and I think they had hoped that Jones or Foster would at worst be a decent complementary option to help ease things. They knew beyond Beasley and Brown they lacked a lot of options but were hoping that Kroft and others would help pick up the slack. Kroft got hurt and Foster/Jones never got it going, Mackenzie did a little here and there but was mostly a gadget player. 

 

The Bills need to desperately find a WR that can be a consistent factor in the passing game and they need to find another complementary option at tight end to help add diversification to the core (I like Knox but he needs another year to cook.) The Bills could only do so much in one off-season to fix the offense. They repaired the O-line heavily (with depth to boot) and added some weapons in the passing game and got a good young RB. But overall they need to get the proper weapons around Allen for 2020. 

 

 

You don't need that. It's ideal, but plenty of teams get by with less and have a lot of success. If you're using the words "consistent high end quality" option in a way so as to exclude Beasley, and you are not even sure that Beasley ("probably"), or Singletary ("possibly") counts as "supplementary," or even mention Knox as possibly supplementary, there are plenty of teams that don't have two such high end guys and 2-3 more supplementary ones on top of that.

 

Look at SF. Kittle's excellent by any standard, but after that? But Deebo's production is pretty similar to Beasley's. Who are their supplemental guys if Beasley might not even qualify and Knox doesn't?

 

KC certainly fills your standards, but how about the Titans? Corey Davis is their second option and he's less productive than Beasley. How about the Packers. By most standards, Adams would be considered high-end, but who do they have after that?

 

Yeah, we should work on getting more targets in, no question. I disagree with the specifics of your statement here, but do they need a real upgrade at WR and very possibly at TE? Yeah, I'm with you.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

 Only because you are wrong.  LOL   : )
He absolutely became overwhelmed against Ravens and Pittsburgh's defenses .

 

 

Plenty of good, unscared QBs have bad games against very good defenses. I never saw him scared. Confused, yeah. Overwhelmed at times, yeah, that's fair I think.

 

But did he regress? I mean of course he had areas and times when he did, but overall? Just the opposite, he improved. Still has a lot farther to go, but he's trending in the right direction.

 

 

On 1/20/2020 at 12:03 AM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

This is a really really good post.  I hate to copy long posts, but I also hate to edit any of it out.

 

I think last year (2018) was as much "streamline and simplify" year for the Bills as Daboll is going to buy into.  There were a lot of blocking concepts the Bills simply couldn't execute last year, and Castillo or Daboll tried extensive cut blocking to compensate, which wound up blowing chunks because they weren't good at cut blocking either.  And Allen was raw as raw could be.  It took Daboll something like 5 games (Titans) to sort out what they could and couldn't do, then he got hurt.  So when he came back, they split W/L evenly and that was progress.  But this year Daboll had enough personnel that he was not gonna "streamline and simplify".  I look at it as equivalent to a child who grows up in a bilingual home.  Most of them show delayed speech.  They don't talk as early or as much as monolingual kids.  But then when they do start talking, not only are they fluent in two languages, but they're able to judge when to speak each language.  That's fundamentally what Daboll is asking Allen and the WR and OL to do this year.  Bilingual or Bust, baby.

 

 

 

 

As father of a bilingual four year-old daughter, I approve of this message. And she did start slowly, but now speaks both languages naturally and appropriately.

[Meatloaf63]

On 1/18/2020 at 4:25 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Nope.  I don't think we disagree that much about needed changes in personnel, either - it's just that the things I see as the biggest needed improvements on O don't *require* personnel changes, so those flow to the top of my list if that makes sense.

 

One of the things I'm looking at now is the depth of Josh's drops and how that may be contributing to pass protection problems off the edge.  I don't think he's as consistent there as he needs to be, and I think he's sometimes too deep, which can make pass protection harder for the tackles.  But still making my way through.

 

 

I don't think I said anything about this?  So I'm not sure what you're addressing here.

 

But since you bring it up....it can be a very good thing for Josh to extend the play with his legs and make the throw, but only if he's able to use good technique and make a good throw.  Otherwise, take the short quick hit more often.

 

It's a great thing to be so good on 3rd and long conversions, but it's a better thing to avoid 3rd and long or even 3rd down.

 

 

 

 

Did you ever notice how far Mahomes drops?