Did the lack of production from Jones/Foster/Kroft hamper Daboll & the offense?

[DRA3196]

I don't think the trio of playmakers hindered Daboll and the offense  as much as the inability of the o-line to gel and work together in the pre-season. The fact Morse couldn't get any offseason work, was a huge contributor. Timing, blocking calls, coordination between Josh and Mitch to work on snaps was lacking and noticable. The fact that Faliciano had to play C during the preseason and didn't get reps at guard while Ford and Nsekhe were alternating time at tackle.

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ah

 

Another undetected Sar Chasm discovered ?

 

You're a Wyo fan who followed Allen here if I'm not mistaken?  And welcome and all that.  You said;

There were obvious weaknesses on offense and every player owns some of that.  If you are asking which weakness had the greater impact on our production this year...

1. TE and edge blocking on pass plays

2.  Not having a #1 receiver

3.  Getting a lead and going all in conservative 

 

I love a lot I've seen from Allen, but let's just say it's not a surprise to me that your top 3 concerns for the Bills offense are essentially independent of Allen

My top concerns would be:

1) Allen failing to take what the defense is giving him.  Even in the games where he's being blasted by rushers, he's mobile enough to buy time with his legs - and too often passes up easy completions of 4-5 yds to go for chunk yards or deep bombs that are lower percentage plays for EVERY QB.  I have sometimes suggested facetiously that Singletary should be equipped with one of those long white fiberglass poles with an orange flag on the top, like they fasten to fire hydrants and guard rails in deep snow areas to make them more visible.  Why?  Is it Allen's gunslinger instinct?  Does he still question his abilities to hit those - even though he made dramatic improvements this season?  Is it the way the reads are sequenced in the play design or the way he's being coached?  I don't know, but it's been the difference between moving the chains vs. 3 or 6 and out on many a drive.

2) Failure to establish a reliable run game.  This starts at the OL.  I mentioned somewhere that I've been scrutinizing Gore and Singletary's run play charts on NFL Advanced Stats and what I think they say is that we really struggled to run between the tackles.  That's not good.

3) A quick hit passing game.  We had one in our first few games and it vanished.  Why is a good question.  Better screen play design?  A reliable handed TE as an outlet? In part I know - it's because NE"s version of Zero Blitz laid down a blueprint that other teams followed if they could.  If you haven't, totally recommend Brett Kollsman "The Film Room" piece "Kids See Ghosts" on the way the Patriots implement Zero Blitz.  Fundamentally and somewhat paradoxically, this may depend upon Allen being able to hit the deep post route reliably, and that may depend upon a #1 WR who can out-physical man coverage - something our Smurfs can struggle with, but it's also a technical issue for Allen where he needs to get his footwork solid enough that it stays right under pressure

4) That deep post depends upon  pass blocking in general.  It's not always the edge and the TE, though those can be the most catastrophic failures.  Sometimes it's our guys getting pushed back into Allen's lap.  I don't think we have the athleticism on our line to hold up against the top DL's generally.  Sometimes it's a protection call failure, not sure if that's on Allen or Morse or a scheme that can't adapt to delayed blitzes.  Allen needs to improve there though.

 

 

No doubt in my mind Allen needs to improve. And I said in my post that Allen owns some of the weaknesses. Biases aside, I don't think Allen is in the top three. Many Bills fans, pre JA, didn't list him in their top three either. It's great that there is disagreement on what the top three are. It all needs to be discussed.

 

And as a point of reference, I bought my first Bill's cap when Eddie was picked up by the Bills.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Ill answer a different way, when your #2 WR is Issah McKenzie, the offense overall is in trouble.  And that's not meant to be a knock on McKenzie either.

 

I'd call him the #3, but the point stands

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

No doubt in my mind Allen needs to improve. And I said in my post that Allen owns some of the weaknesses. Biases aside, I don't think Allen is in the top three. Many Bills fans, pre JA, didn't list him in their top three either. It's great that there is disagreement on what the top three are. It all needs to be discussed.

 

And as a point of reference, I bought my first Bill's cap when Eddie was picked up by the Bills.

 

Well, I put it this way, and I speak as a Coach's Film addict who typically watches each offensive play 3-4 times....

....if Allen takes the easier throw that would go for 4-5 yds about 5 more times per game and 5 of Gore's 10.4 apg go to Singletary, I don't think it's far-fetched to think we win 3 more games, win the division, and go deeper into the playoffs - WITHOUT any changes in personnel.  They were that close.

 

To me, that puts Allen and the run game clearly in the top 3.

 

But sure, of course there can be debate and discussion.  Whiffed blocks by Ford and by Knox or Kroft have led to particularly spectacular game-changing fails, so one could make an argument there too.

[Nester]

Did lack of production effect the total production ?

 

Is this thread for real?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Nester said:

Did lack of production effect the total production ?

 

Is this thread for real?

 

No, it's imaginary.  You must multiply by "i" to elucidate its true meaning

[fansince88]

9 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Who? Who? Who?

 

When you’re not on the field, can you produce?

When a man is alone in the woods, is he still wrong?

When a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody there to hear it did the lumberjack cut it? So many questions to be answered before September

[Dopey]

7 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Daboll made his bed and now he'll have to lie in it. He chose to limit Singletary. He chose to sit Duke & TJ all year for Gore and Foster. You live and die with the decisions you make. Yes he was limited on weapons but he still made stupid decisions on play calling. This team with a little more innovation could've produced more than 19 pts per game. Our lack of offense probably forces McD to crawl into his defensive conservative shell. 

I'm sure Daboll is sleeping just fine in the bed he made. Duke and TJ are jags. Check the game scores with Duke playing and you'll see we still only scored 17 per game. And that's with 31 vs the dolphins. Other than the dolphin game, we scored 14, 13, 6 and 19 in the playoff game where he dropped 2 crucial passes. Some of you need to put the Duke thing to bed already. If he was even close to what some of you make him out to be, why did he sit on the practice squad for so long? Any team could have picked him up, but he just sat there. It's like you think you know something that every other staff in the nfl doesn't. You don't. They both got chances and were benched. They're not any good. Plus, Daboll mentioned in an interview he doesn't make personnel decisions. Coach and Beane do. 

[TigerJ]

9 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

Hard to quantify in that way.  Certainly, it hampered Daboll's ability to call the game, but there were other factors as well, including sometimes the play of Josh Allen and plenty of drops from key personnel, like Dawson Knox and even John Brown and Cole Beasley.  They dropped more than they should have on occasion.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, Dopey said:

I'm sure Daboll is sleeping just fine in the bed he made. Duke and TJ are jags. Check the game scores with Duke playing and you'll see we still only scored 17 per game. And that's with 31 vs the dolphins. Other than the dolphin game, we scored 14, 13, 6 and 19 in the playoff game where he dropped 2 crucial passes. Some of you need to put the Duke thing to bed already. If he was even close to what some of you make him out to be, why did he sit on the practice squad for so long? Any team could have picked him up, but he just sat there. It's like you think you know something that every other staff in the nfl doesn't. You don't. They both got chances and were benched. They're not any good. Plus, Daboll mentioned in an interview he doesn't make personnel decisions. Coach and Beane do. 

 

I don't think that's quite correct.  McDermott and Beane make roster decisions.  In one of his interviews near the end of season, Daboll said that game-day active roster decisions get made in a weekly meeting led by McDermott in which all 3 coordinators weigh in on who should be active, considering all 3 phases of the game.  I assume if there's disagreement between the coordinators that can't be resolved, McDermott would be the deciding vote, but it's not as though McDermott and Beane go off in a bubble to make game day actives decisions without Daboll weighing in.

 

[Augie]

This isn’t complicated. We needed more talent/better players and a healthy Kroft to even judge. This includes skill guys and the OL.  I hope next year is VERY different with the cap and draft tools we have. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ah

 

Another undetected Sar Chasm discovered ?

 

You're a Wyo fan who followed Allen here if I'm not mistaken?  And welcome and all that.  You said;

There were obvious weaknesses on offense and every player owns some of that.  If you are asking which weakness had the greater impact on our production this year...

1. TE and edge blocking on pass plays

2.  Not having a #1 receiver

3.  Getting a lead and going all in conservative 

 

I love a lot I've seen from Allen, but let's just say it's not a surprise to me that your top 3 concerns for the Bills offense are essentially independent of Allen

My top concerns would be:

1) Allen failing to take what the defense is giving him.  Even in the games where he's being blasted by rushers, he's mobile enough to buy time with his legs - and too often passes up easy completions of 4-5 yds to go for chunk yards or deep bombs that are lower percentage plays for EVERY QB.  I have sometimes suggested facetiously that Singletary should be equipped with one of those long white fiberglass poles with an orange flag on the top, like they fasten to fire hydrants and guard rails in deep snow areas to make them more visible.  Why?  Is it Allen's gunslinger instinct?  Does he still question his abilities to hit those - even though he made dramatic improvements this season?  Is it the way the reads are sequenced in the play design or the way he's being coached?  I don't know, but it's been the difference between moving the chains vs. 3 or 6 and out on many a drive.

 

In a world suddenly populated but officials in black shirts rushing the field with neuralyzers to make officials forget the calls they made and flags they might have thrown, this is not entirely crazy. I. Am. In. 
 

Let’s hope the next step in JAs development is recognizing consistently that small bites of the apple extend drives.  Great post all in all. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Augie said:

This isn’t complicated. We needed more talent/better players and a healthy Kroft to even judge. This includes skill guys and the OL.  I hope next year is VERY different with the cap and draft tools we have. 

 

This is exactly where I started a thread asking "can someone explain the Kroft love to me?"  Right now he's the 8th highest cap hit on the Bills after Micah Hyde and before Josh Allen, due $6.6M in 2020.  We're on the hook for $3M of that on the 3rd day of the league year.  Why does Kroft get this slack?  Why do we need to see more to judge? 

 

Kroft had one kind of decent year for the Bengals (his third) then got injured the next year and didn't take it anywhere.  This is not a new pattern.  In college, he had a good redshirt sophomore (3rd) season at Rutgers then didn't take it anywhere.  He actually saw his targets cut as a Junior and got an award for it  (not kidding - "Loyal Knight" award, look it up!).  We saw him finally get on the field for the Bills, get 50% of the snaps vs Philly and get 2 receptions on 4 targets.  Snaps promptly cut.  OK, maybe tried to come back too soon.  Jets game end of season, 47% of the snaps, 1 reception on 4 targets and on that reception, he turned upfield and ran like moving through jello - the "Anti-Angry Run".  He was on the field vs. Houston to be a better blocker than Knox who might actually handle Mercilus.  His was the first, biggest whiff on the play that led to the Allen fumble.  If you're being paid $6.6M as a 6'6" 252 lb (Ha!) TE and you catch 6 out of 14 targets with a 7% drop rate, when you're asked to block a 6'4" 258 lb DE you better at least slow him down long enough for help to arrive.

 

OK, maybe he's still injured and loyally tried to get back on the field too soon, and he needs full health to see what he can do.  Others have commented that when Kroft came back on the field from all the injuries, he looked out of shape.  I thought so too.   The Bills are supposed to have great rehab equipment.  They should have zero-G treadmills for aerobic fitness and he should be able to do upper body work and keep his diet right so he comes back looking more like Dawson Knox  or Zo Alexander than "Dad Bod" seen at Planet Fitness.  Dad Bod it was.

 

Beane signed him to (relatively) big bucks because they thought he was a good player trapped in a backup role and ready to take a big step. I think he showed he's a backup stuck in a backup role who is "loyal" about it and not fierce enough about wanting to step up, get out there, and make a difference in the game.  I think that's what his college career and his career with the Bengals shows.  Now we've seen it here too.  Lots of potential, no fire in his gut.  Cut him, eat the $1.6M cap hit, and bring in someone who wants it more.

 

We badly need a difference-making TE who is sure handed and gets open quickly as an outlet for Allen.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

11 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

That’s been the story with Kroft most of his career.  Can’t stay healthy.... and he looked BAD and out of shape when he actually was out there.

 

He shouldn’t be on the roster next year. 

 

...apologizing for repeating my previous post, but I think if McBeane knew he would land two TE youngsters in the draft ala Knox and Sweeney, the Kroft signing never happens...

[BuffaloMatt]

Yes. Size and talent matters. 

[C.Biscuit97]

It’s funny how people think the OC has no say in the offensive personnel, especially with Foster.  Maybe the guy who has been a bottom top 10 Nfl OC his whole career just isn’t a good OC.

[Saxum]

On 1/17/2020 at 12:39 PM, teef said:

did i have a stroke, or is there two different sized fonts on there?

 

Ask Kraft. He knows how to find quality strokes for less (or at least yes by having delivery).

On 1/17/2020 at 1:15 PM, John from Riverside said:

The Robert Foster thing I will never understand...that guy looked like a breakout player the 2nd half of the year before

 

IMO it had to do with McCoy.  McCoy is one who talked to him and put some sense in him. 

McCoy gets released and Foster figures "well that advice did not work."

[Pokebball]

17 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I put it this way, and I speak as a Coach's Film addict who typically watches each offensive play 3-4 times....

....if Allen takes the easier throw that would go for 4-5 yds about 5 more times per game and 5 of Gore's 10.4 apg go to Singletary, I don't think it's far-fetched to think we win 3 more games, win the division, and go deeper into the playoffs - WITHOUT any changes in personnel.  They were that close.

 

To me, that puts Allen and the run game clearly in the top 3.

 

But sure, of course there can be debate and discussion.  Whiffed blocks by Ford and by Knox or Kroft have led to particularly spectacular game-changing fails, so one could make an argument there too.

More Sar Chasm?  Just joshing ya.

 

I too very much like the short to medium throws and think Daboll needs to create more of those opportunities for the offense.  These haven't seemed to be early in JAs reads, but perhaps I'm not seeing that correctly.  We certainly disagree about needed changes in personnel.  We didn't have the receivers that could create separation that early compared to many teams.  Beasley is probably the best but he needed a 10-15 route to create enough space, normally.  I would argue that the lack of 5 -10 yard passes is more about WRs and TEs.

 

As to JA holding the ball longer than most QBs, I'd suggest that this is actually one of JAs strengths and trying to make him change that might not be the right idea.  Jackson and Watson also have this skill.  All three can extend plays.  All three can scramble for good yards.  While I get this statistical comparison with most of the other QBs, why take this tool out of either of these QBs toolboxes.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

More Sar Chasm?  Just joshing ya.

 

Nope.  I don't think we disagree that much about needed changes in personnel, either - it's just that the things I see as the biggest needed improvements on O don't *require* personnel changes, so those flow to the top of my list if that makes sense.

 

One of the things I'm looking at now is the depth of Josh's drops and how that may be contributing to pass protection problems off the edge.  I don't think he's as consistent there as he needs to be, and I think he's sometimes too deep, which can make pass protection harder for the tackles.  But still making my way through.

 

4 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

As to JA holding the ball longer than most QBs

 

I don't think I said anything about this?  So I'm not sure what you're addressing here.

 

But since you bring it up....it can be a very good thing for Josh to extend the play with his legs and make the throw, but only if he's able to use good technique and make a good throw.  Otherwise, take the short quick hit more often.

 

It's a great thing to be so good on 3rd and long conversions, but it's a better thing to avoid 3rd and long or even 3rd down.

 

 

 

 

[3rdand12]

On 1/17/2020 at 12:43 PM, teef said:

i'm seeing angels.  

thank you for looking out for my well being.

and why i love you guys/girls/folks/pet rocks