Did the lack of production from Jones/Foster/Kroft hamper Daboll & the offense?

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

Who? Who? Who?

 

When you’re not on the field, can you produce?

When a man is alone in the woods, is he still wrong?

Daboll made his bed and now he'll have to lie in it. He chose to limit Singletary. He chose to sit Duke & TJ all year for Gore and Foster. You live and die with the decisions you make. Yes he was limited on weapons but he still made stupid decisions on play calling. This team with a little more innovation could've produced more than 19 pts per game. Our lack of offense probably forces McD to crawl into his defensive conservative shell. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

I'll say it again and Mile in HH will agree with me ......    Bob Foster isn't that good.  He's maybe JAG. 

IMO the only reason he looked "good" was because his main competition at WR was  Zay Jones (who by the way led the team in yards) and caught 4 deep passes from Josh. 

 

Kroft ... Only started in 3 games and only played in 11 games.  You can't even speculate what if when the guy wasn't a "main starter"

 

It's kind of funny how Josh was more accurate on his deep passes with Jones and Foster last year and somehow he sucked this year. 

 

There's been alot made of playing Foster over Williams for the most part this season, some reasons have been mentioned in a number of places, ST play etc.

 

One reason though that don't recall seeing mentioned much could be:

 

You had a relatively inexperienced QB in Allen, You've brought in two new WR's this year in Brown and Beas plus new TE, new O-line, there was what 7 new starting players on offense to start the season.  Thinking may have been the one player that Allen seemed to have connected with well from 2018 was Foster so they were going to keep him out there and give him alot of time to re-capture what they had the year prior.   Why it didn't happen, who knows, kind of wonder if the issue is Foster tends to not handle adversary very well?

[DrDawkinstein]

Team sport.

[Jerry Jabber]

9 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

 

I'll say it again and Mile in HH will agree with me ......    Bob Foster isn't that good.  He's maybe JAG. 

IMO the only reason he looked "good" was because his main competition at WR was  Zay Jones (who by the way led the team in yards) and caught 4 deep passes from Josh. 

 

Kroft ... Only started in 3 games and only played in 11 games.  You can't even speculate what if when the guy wasn't a "main starter"

 

It's kind of funny how Josh was more accurate on his deep passes with Jones and Foster last year and somehow he sucked this year. 

Agree about Foster. In 2018, I wasn't sure why the Bills coaches kept him on the team as he was ineffective in the first half of the season, then he had a good second half of the season. This season, he was terrible, plain and simple! People have mentioned how complexed Daboll's system is and that the terminology changes on a weekly basis. If that is the case, and other starters on offense were able to keep up, then it's another reason to let Foster go as it would appear he does not have the football IQ required.

 

"It's kind of funny how Josh was more accurate on his deep passes with Jones and Foster last year and somehow he sucked this year." Good points. Josh improved on his short to intermediate passes, but sucked on deep passes. Was Josh more worried about throwing INT's that he threw the ball further so only the WR had a chance at it, vice giving the WR a 50/50 ball vs the DB?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

The Robert Foster thing I will never understand...that guy looked like a breakout player the 2nd half of the year before

 

 

...EXACTLY....thought he heeded McDermott's wake up call and was ready to go......at the same time, his use was inconsistent and so was he when he played......oft injured Kroft was a gap filler IMO....if McBeane knew he'd land Knox AND Sweeney, Kroft signing never happens......

[John from Riverside]

Just now, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...EXACTLY....thought he heeded McDermott's wake up call and was ready to go......at the same time, his use was inconsistent and so was he when he played......oft injured Kroft was a gap filler IMO....if McBeane knew he'd land Knox AND Sweeney, Kroft signing never happens......

I would like to think that the use of Foster was determined on how he was doing in practice....but I dont know because we kept hearing that Duke was being a beast in practice.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

6 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I would like to think that the use of Foster was determined on how he was doing in practice....but I dont know because we kept hearing that Duke was being a beast in practice.

 

..interesting......IMO, Duke seemed to confirm that with the WHOPPING three games he played.....still go back to a McBeane quote (paraphrased), "the signing of Duke Williams made drafting a WR early not a top priority".....could this be a Daboll issue then?.............

[Comebackkid]

Frank Gore... Wide right.... 

[YattaOkasan]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

2018
Ray-ray McCloud (6th round pick - still on PS)
Austin Proehl (7th round pick)
Corey Coleman (traded 2020 7th round pick for him and assumed $3.5M guaranteed salary for <1 month)
Jeremy Kerley (cut before 2nd game)

Terrelle Pryor (lasted 2 weeks)

Deonte Thompson (re-signed after cut by Boys)
Jason Croom (UDFA on PS in 2017, IR in 2019)
Logan Thomas (resigned as ERFA from 2016)

I think McKenzie should be on this list right?  I think that would probably be the best move by Beane prior to this year.  I would not have played Yeldon over Gore, but still feel we need an upgrade over both them.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, YattaOkasan said:

I think McKenzie should be on this list right?  I think that would probably be the best move by Beane prior to this year.  I would not have played Yeldon over Gore, but still feel we need an upgrade over both them.

Yes, good catch on McKensie

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

...for 2018, Daboll got a pass because "it's the personnel stupid".......does that hold for 2019 as well?......OR.........

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

They did not help. 
 

I am not sure how much they hurt.  I am a little fixated on Derrick Henry the last couple of weeks.  If you have a line and a player performing at that level, I am not sure if the performance of a WR#3 like jones or a WR4 like foster is really a critical missing pieces though. 

I don;t now if a QB in his second season and his first full season as a starter is likely to be the best at involving 5 or 6 NFL average playmakers without having  single player the Defense needs to key on.  Last year Mahomes did very well with guys like this handling most of the production



I think Maybe if we had Hill and Kelce, instead of Brown and Croft, no one would worry so much about zay jones or robert foster. 

Looking at the Bills this season, it seems like maybe the production shortfall is on the top, not the bottom of the WR corp

 

Good assessment.  I think the hope based on scouting/FA talent e v a l & preseason was that Kroft & Jones would be closer to Kelce & Hill

[Buffalo_Stampede]

26 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

...for 2018, Daboll got a pass because "it's the personnel stupid".......does that hold for 2019 as well?......OR.........

What exactly is the issue? Allen took a giant leap in 2019. The offense also jumped 7 spots in ppg. Let's be a little realistic here. There was zero elite talent added to the offensive side. We added some average role players and a 3rd round RB.

 

I'm not sure why people complain so much about him. The offense is heading in the right direction. I'm sure most analysts would say the Bills over achieved on offense in 2019. The narrative on Josh Allen changed. Daboll had a lot to do with that.

[Chaos]

10 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

What exactly is the issue? Allen took a giant leap in 2019. The offense also jumped 7 spots in ppg. Let's be a little realistic here. There was zero elite talent added to the offensive side. We added some average role players and a 3rd round RB.

 

I'm not sure why people complain so much about him. The offense is heading in the right direction. I'm sure most analysts would say the Bills over achieved on offense in 2019. The narrative on Josh Allen changed. Daboll had a lot to do with that.

While I am not sold on Daboll, your take here is entirely reasonable. 

If I just look at results I think I agree with your conclusion.  However my trouble comes from how many games my head was spinning from what appeared to be a large number of inane decisions on offense. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Chaos

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

What exactly is the issue? Allen took a giant leap in 2019. The offense also jumped 7 spots in ppg. Let's be a little realistic here. There was zero elite talent added to the offensive side. We added some average role players and a 3rd round RB.

 

I'm not sure why people complain so much about him. The offense is heading in the right direction. I'm sure most analysts would say the Bills over achieved on offense in 2019. The narrative on Josh Allen changed. Daboll had a lot to do with that.

 

...apologize for the confusion...the Allen kid is the heart and soul of this offense and a BIGGER heart 'n soul locker room guy......certainly his strides were significant.....and yes his shorter game needed work to temper the cannon and he responded......but many have said his long game disappeared.......is that assessment accurate?.....if so, why?...if not, why not?.......

[Pokebball]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

In a surprising development, I have a somewhat different list

Surprising development?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

While I am not sold on Daboll, your take here is entirely reasonable. 

If I just look at results I think I agree with your conclusion.  However my trouble comes from how many games my head was spinning from what appeared to be a large number of inane decisions on offense. 

Every OC will have those moments in every game. 

 

The biggest reason I didn't sour on Daboll this year is because he allowed Allen control of the offense. They allowed him to be a franchise QB. He was making protection calls and pre snap checks. Allen made plenty of mistakes with this freedom but that's the only way to learn. That's another reason I didn't want Allen learning another offense year 3. 

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

...apologize for the confusion...the Allen kid is the heart and soul of this offense and a BIGGER heart 'n soul locker room guy......certainly his strides were significant.....and yes his shorter game needed work to temper the cannon and he responded......but many have said his long game disappeared.......is that assessment accurate?.....if so, why?...if not, why not?.......

Allen just missed those long throws. I don't think there's anything more to it then just poor accuracy. He'll work on it and hopefully fix it. 

[Fan in Chicago]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Carr is inaccurate?

My sarcasm gun apparently is

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Fan in Chicago said:

My sarcasm gun apparently is

 

Ah

3 hours ago, Pokebball said:

Surprising development?

 

Another undetected Sar Chasm discovered ?

 

You're a Wyo fan who followed Allen here if I'm not mistaken?  And welcome and all that.  You said;

There were obvious weaknesses on offense and every player owns some of that.  If you are asking which weakness had the greater impact on our production this year...

1. TE and edge blocking on pass plays

2.  Not having a #1 receiver

3.  Getting a lead and going all in conservative 

 

I love a lot I've seen from Allen, but let's just say it's not a surprise to me that your top 3 concerns for the Bills offense are essentially independent of Allen

My top concerns would be:

1) Allen failing to take what the defense is giving him.  Even in the games where he's being blasted by rushers, he's mobile enough to buy time with his legs - and too often passes up easy completions of 4-5 yds to go for chunk yards or deep bombs that are lower percentage plays for EVERY QB.  I have sometimes suggested facetiously that Singletary should be equipped with one of those long white fiberglass poles with an orange flag on the top, like they fasten to fire hydrants and guard rails in deep snow areas to make them more visible.  Why?  Is it Allen's gunslinger instinct?  Does he still question his abilities to hit those - even though he made dramatic improvements this season?  Is it the way the reads are sequenced in the play design or the way he's being coached?  I don't know, but it's been the difference between moving the chains vs. 3 or 6 and out on many a drive.

2) Failure to establish a reliable run game.  This starts at the OL.  I mentioned somewhere that I've been scrutinizing Gore and Singletary's run play charts on NFL Advanced Stats and what I think they say is that we really struggled to run between the tackles.  That's not good.

3) A quick hit passing game.  We had one in our first few games and it vanished.  Why is a good question.  Better screen play design?  A reliable handed TE as an outlet? In part I know - it's because NE"s version of Zero Blitz laid down a blueprint that other teams followed if they could.  If you haven't, totally recommend Brett Kollsman "The Film Room" piece "Kids See Ghosts" on the way the Patriots implement Zero Blitz.  Fundamentally and somewhat paradoxically, this may depend upon Allen being able to hit the deep post route reliably, and that may depend upon a #1 WR who can out-physical man coverage - something our Smurfs can struggle with, but it's also a technical issue for Allen where he needs to get his footwork solid enough that it stays right under pressure

4) That deep post depends upon  pass blocking in general.  It's not always the edge and the TE, though those can be the most catastrophic failures.  Sometimes it's our guys getting pushed back into Allen's lap.  I don't think we have the athleticism on our line to hold up against the top DL's generally.  Sometimes it's a protection call failure, not sure if that's on Allen or Morse or a scheme that can't adapt to delayed blitzes.  Allen needs to improve there though.

 

 

[42Knuck]

6 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Who? Who? Who?

 

When you’re not on the field, can you produce?

When a man is alone in the woods, is he still wrong?

According to his wife. Yes.