Did the lack of production from Jones/Foster/Kroft hamper Daboll & the offense?

[blacklabel]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I agree. I don't know if he was disgruntled with the Bills bringing in John Brown and Cole Beasley in the offseason or something else? But how did Foster go from 27 catches for 541 yards and 3 TD's in 2018 to 3 catches for 64 yards and 0 TDs? 

 

Yeah, super confusing. I recall that he had a few nagging injuries in camp and early in the season, but then after that I have no idea what they were seeing from him that kept him on the bench. I heard he had issues running the correct route, or learning how/when/where he needed to adjust his routes based on what the defense was showing. I think last season they maybe gave him a bit of the sandlot kind of game plan, "Just run fly patterns and Josh will toss it up." IIRC, Cover1 singled out some instances where Foster was shown to be running really good routes so... who knows. Several players have said Daboll's system is complicated to begin with, and then he likes to adjust/adapt it each week based on the opponent, so maybe he was having trouble keeping up? 

 

I had high hopes for Zay Jones. I think I was just excited that they finally spent an early round pick on a receiver. Doesn't seem like the change of scenery has helped him much. I'm sure he works his tail off, just doesn't seem to translate on Sundays. 

 

And then Kroft had the bum foot, so...

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I agree. I don't know if he was disgruntled with the Bills bringing in John Brown and Cole Beasley in the offseason or something else? But how did Foster go from 27 catches for 541 yards and 3 TD's in 2018 to 3 catches for 64 yards and 0 TDs? 

Targets. He was the #1 WR for most of the 2nd half of last season. I was hoping he'd be a top 2-3 WR for us because that was the easiest route to finding one. He is 6'2 and runs 4.4. It is what it is though, he was a long shot. 

 

We lack offensive playmakers. 

 

 

[BuffaloMatt]

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

 

I think there's no question.  They felt they were bringing in a vet TE who could block and produce in the passing game, and they were expecting Zay Jones in his 3rd year (2nd in the offense) to take a big step.  Duke Williams was the "almost as good as a draft pick" dark horse.

 

When Zay didn't work out, they were hoping Duke Williams could step in but after 3 games decided he needed to go back to the PS and marinate some more.

 

This is one of my big frustrations with Beane and McDermott.  It's not that they aren't trying to improve the offense, it's just that their judgement on who to choose to achieve this seem repeatedly poor.  I know Beane didn't draft Jones, but he certainly was in on the decision to "count him in" and not make more moves after his poor rookie year and NFI from the off-season glass breaking incident.

 

This is what I can recall of our WR and TE additions:
 

2017

Zay Jones (2nd round, traded up for him)

Anquan Boldin (<2 weeks)
Kelvin Benjamin (traded 3rd round pick for him)
Jordan Matthews (traded Darby for him + 3rd round pick)

Andre Holmes (2 yr of 3 yr, $6.5M contract)

Deonte Thompson (had career year, but not brought back)
2018
Ray-ray McCloud (6th round pick - still on PS)
Austin Proehl (7th round pick)
Corey Coleman (traded 2020 7th round pick for him and assumed $3.5M guaranteed salary for <1 month)
Jeremy Kerley (cut before 2nd game)

Terrelle Pryor (lasted 2 weeks)

Deonte Thompson (re-signed after cut by Boys)
Jason Croom (UDFA on PS in 2017, IR in 2019)
Logan Thomas (resigned as ERFA from 2016)
2019

John Brown (FA, 3 yr $27M contract, $10.1M guaranteed)
Cole Beasley (FA, 4 yr $29M contract, $10.7M guaranteed
Tyler Kroft (FA, 3 yr, $18.57M contract with $8.3 guaranteed)
Lee Smith (FA, 3 yr, $9M contract with $4.9M guaranteed)
Dawson Knox (3rd round pick)
Tommy Sweeney (7th round pick)
Duke Williams (FA, from CFL)

 

Glass half full:  ALL of the 2019 acquisitions look much much better than the previous 2 years

 

Glass half empty: I "get it" that they were shopping on a strict budget in 2017 and 2018, but you'd like to get a bit more production and quality out of a high 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick, a trade of a former 2nd round DB who can play, two late round picks, acquiring a $3.5M guaranteed salary, and a vet signing (Boldin).  Not to mention some UDFA.  The much maligned Buddy Nix and Doug Whaley managed to scrape up more talent from a bunch of no-namer late round/UDFA guys in Stevie Johnson, David Nelson, Donald Jones etc.   In hindsight, Deonte Thompson was probably the best add of a bad lot in 2018, and that's pretty sad.  It's like they just weren't putting the hosses into scouting and evaluation, it was like "I've heard of him, he was drafted high, Bring Him In!"

 

I am hoping to be shown that we truly can evaluate offensive talent this off-season.

 

 

55 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Who? Who? Who?

 

When you’re not on the field, can you produce?

When a man is alone in the woods, is he still wrong?

 

If he says something, yes

[Jay_Fixit]

By being bad players?

 

Yes.

[Pokebball]

15 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Sure. Dump on these guys to cover up for an inaccurate QB. 

 

 

Sure.  Dump on the QB to cover up for the poor blocking. 

[bigK14094]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

Lotta drops from that group....Knox also, unfortunately.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Sure. Dump on these guys to cover up for an inaccurate QB.

 

Carr is inaccurate?

[Pokebball]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

There were obvious weaknesses on offense and every player owns some of that.  If you are asking which weakness had the greater impact on our production this year...

1. TE and edge blocking on pass plays

2.  Not having a #1 receiver

3.  Getting a lead and going all in conservative 

[Jerry Jabber]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think there's no question.  They felt they were bringing in a vet TE who could block and produce in the passing game, and they were expecting Zay Jones in his 3rd year (2nd in the offense) to take a big step.  Duke Williams was the "almost as good as a draft pick" dark horse.

 

When Zay didn't work out, they were hoping Duke Williams could step in but after 3 games decided he needed to go back to the PS and marinate some more.

 

This is one of my big frustrations with Beane and McDermott.  It's not that they aren't trying to improve the offense, it's just that their judgement on who to choose to achieve this seem repeatedly poor.  I know Beane didn't draft Jones, but he certainly was in on the decision to "count him in" and not make more moves after his poor rookie year and NFI from the off-season glass breaking incident.

 

This is what I can recall of our WR and TE additions:
 

2017

Zay Jones (2nd round, traded up for him)

Anquan Boldin (<2 weeks)
Kelvin Benjamin (traded 3rd round pick for him)
Jordan Matthews (traded Darby for him + 3rd round pick)

Andre Holmes (2 yr of 3 yr, $6.5M contract)

Deonte Thompson (had career year, but not brought back)
2018
Ray-ray McCloud (6th round pick - still on PS)
Austin Proehl (7th round pick)
Corey Coleman (traded 2020 7th round pick for him and assumed $3.5M guaranteed salary for <1 month)
Jeremy Kerley (cut before 2nd game)

Terrelle Pryor (lasted 2 weeks)

Deonte Thompson (re-signed after cut by Boys)
Jason Croom (UDFA on PS in 2017, IR in 2019)
Logan Thomas (resigned as ERFA from 2016)
2019

John Brown (FA, 3 yr $27M contract, $10.1M guaranteed)
Cole Beasley (FA, 4 yr $29M contract, $10.7M guaranteed
Tyler Kroft (FA, 3 yr, $18.57M contract with $8.3 guaranteed)
Lee Smith (FA, 3 yr, $9M contract with $4.9M guaranteed)
Dawson Knox (3rd round pick)
Tommy Sweeney (7th round pick)
Duke Williams (FA, from CFL)

 

Glass half full:  ALL of the 2019 acquisitions look much much better than the previous 2 years

 

Glass half empty: I "get it" that they were shopping on a strict budget in 2017 and 2018, but you'd like to get a bit more production and quality out of a high 2nd round pick, a 3rd round pick, a trade of a former 2nd round DB who can play, two late round picks, acquiring a $3.5M guaranteed salary, and a vet signing (Boldin).  Not to mention some UDFA.  The much maligned Buddy Nix and Doug Whaley managed to scrape up more talent from a bunch of no-namer late round/UDFA guys in Stevie Johnson, David Nelson, Donald Jones etc.   In hindsight, Deonte Thompson was probably the best add of a bad lot in 2018, and that's pretty sad.  It's like they just weren't putting the hosses into scouting and evaluation, it was like "I've heard of him, he was drafted high, Bring Him In!"

 

I am hoping to be shown that we truly can evaluate offensive talent this off-season.

 

 

I agree 100% percent with you assessment. It seems McBeane has been good at identifying defensive players for the scheme the Bills run, but have really struggled at finding good WR/TE's.  Now that the Bills have cleared up their salary cap situation, have about $90M in cap space along with nine draft picks, we'll see better WR's/TE's coming in. If not, then we really have to start questioning McBeane's personnel/decision making?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

There were obvious weaknesses on offense and every player owns some of that.  If you are asking which weakness had the greater impact on our production this year...

1. TE and edge blocking on pass plays

2.  Not having a #1 receiver

3.  Getting a lead and going all in conservative 

 

In a surprising development, I have a somewhat different list

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

 

I would say there was a lack of production from a number of people, not just those 3. When your offensive unit gets little to no production from Foster/Jones(Then traded)/Kroft/DiMarco/Gore(2nd half of the year)/Smith/Duke/Knox/McKenzie then the unit is going to suffer. 

 

If he was relying on these people to help carry the offense then that's on him. Smith and DiMarco provide little to nothing of use. Kroft only has 1 year with more than 129 yards receiving in his 5 year career, McKenzie is similar in his 3 year career. Knox was a raw, but talented, rookie, Duke had no prior NFL experience and Gore was a 36 year old RB that hit a wall only half way through the year. Foster & Jones had to be the biggest disappointments for Duh!boll.

 

Most of the offense fell on Brown, Beasley, Allen & Singletary, who missed 4 1/2 games this year and then was under used in the other 12 1/2(Including the Texans game). They need better playmakers next year to help their young QB out and to be able to take the next step. They need to stop using almost all their 1st round picks on defense, if the offense is going to take a leap forward.

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[Chaos]

They did not help. 
 

I am not sure how much they hurt.  I am a little fixated on Derrick Henry the last couple of weeks.  If you have a line and a player performing at that level, I am not sure if the performance of a WR#3 like jones or a WR4 like foster is really a critical missing pieces though. 

I don;t now if a QB in his second season and his first full season as a starter is likely to be the best at involving 5 or 6 NFL average playmakers without having  single player the Defense needs to key on.  Last year Mahomes did very well with guys like this handling most of the production



I think Maybe if we had Hill and Kelce, instead of Brown and Croft, no one would worry so much about zay jones or robert foster. 

Looking at the Bills this season, it seems like maybe the production shortfall is on the top, not the bottom of the WR corp

 

[ngbills]

Kroft is the only one who I could see being an excuse. But he was hurt pretty early on and Knox may have turned out to be better than a healthy Kroft. So a big fat NO. 

[Jerry Jabber]

15 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

Most of the offense fell on Brown, Beasley, Allen & Singletary, who missed 4 1/2 games this year and then was under used in the other 12 1/2(Including the Texans game). They need better playmakers next year to help their young QB out and to be able to take the next step. They need to stop using almost all their 1st round picks on defense, if the offense is going to take a leap forward.

 

Agree 100%

[ngbills]

41 minutes ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I agree. I don't know if he was disgruntled with the Bills bringing in John Brown and Cole Beasley in the offseason or something else? But how did Foster go from 27 catches for 541 yards and 3 TD's in 2018 to 3 catches for 64 yards and 0 TDs in 2019? 

Very easily. He went from 44 targets to 18 targets. The balls that could have been thrown to him were thrown to someone else - namely Brown, Beasley, Knox, McK, Williams, etc. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Ill answer a different way, when your #2 WR is Issah McKenzie, the offense overall is in trouble.  And that's not meant to be a knock on McKenzie either.

[Jerry Jabber]

14 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Very easily. He went from 44 targets to 18 targets. The balls that could have been thrown to him were thrown to someone else - namely Brown, Beasley, Knox, McK, Williams, etc. 

That's one way of looking at it. Another would be is Foster did not run the correct route which led to blown plays, not being able to beat the defender in one-on-one as well as drops. If those things happen (which they did), would you continue to throw it to someone who is proving to be unreliable or throw it to someone that is more reliable and has a greater chance of making the reception?

2 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

Ill answer a different way, when your #2 WR is Issah McKenzie, the offense overall is in trouble.  And that's not meant to be a knock on McKenzie either.

I agree with that. I think going into the season, the Bills were hoping for Brown and Jones to be their top two WR's, with Beasley in the slot and Foster their burner. When their plans did not work, they had to go with gadget players like McKenzie and Roberts.

[Don Otreply]

As already stated, the answer is, YES.

 

Along with a stream of untimely dropped passes by others throughout the season. Jmo. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

2 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While the offense underperformed this season, was it mainly due to the surprisingly lack of production from Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Tyler Kroft who were expected to have big roles in the offense, Daboll's play calling or a combination of the two? I'm sure the coaches were expecting Zay to be their #2 WR, Foster to be their deep threat and Kroft to be that underneath guy that could move the chains.

 

I'll say it again and Mike in HH will agree with me ......    Bob Foster isn't that good.  He's maybe JAG. 

IMO the only reason he looked "good" was because his main competition at WR was  Zay Jones (who by the way led the team in yards) and caught 4 deep passes from Josh. 

 

Kroft ... Only started in 3 games and only played in 11 games.  You can't even speculate what if when the guy wasn't a "main starter"

 

It's kind of funny how Josh was more accurate on his deep passes with Jones and Foster last year and somehow he sucked this year. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by SlimShady'sGhost