NYG requested permission to interview Daboll for OC - DENIED

[Buffalo Junction]

6 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

And by promotion it means HC. Because every other position can be blocked. 

Pretty much. However, I’m okay with a team requesting an interview for a coordinator position from a LBer or WR coach before the playoffs start.... Those guys, if successful, will broaden the coaching ranks we can hire from later. Key is “early and substantial”. Being too late to find a quality replacement should be a non-starter for all requests unless they’re offering draft picks as compensation. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Like A Mofo said:

Obviously Daboll was interested, so why not let him go?

 

I don't agree "obviously", see above

[Shaw66]

14 hours ago, SCBills said:

At some point, even the haters of Daboll might start to wonder why teams are interested in him?...

 

That's what I was thinking. 

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

I genuinely had these thoughts during the seasons. Your first point has some challenges associated with it:

 

1.) Have Allen get more reps against live defenses

2.) This could be one of the reasons we (IMO) stubbornly kept playing Ford at RT

 

Are they willing to sacrifice winning a game and even costing ourselves "the season" in the name of development?

 

3.) Still doesn't explain the reliance on Gore and Yeldon being inactive once it was very apparent Gore was toast - Why take Devin out of the playoff game for Gore? It doesn't help his development

4.) With the season on the line in Houston why the hell are DiMarco and Lee Smith out there? Neither of them are going to make a play for Allen, rightfully so hero ball Josh came out in that instance...

 

I get that it is a fine line and where you could maybe make a case for development over the long run -  we do stupid things that fly in the face of that as well.

 

Your last point I don't think anyone can argue about that. Making Allen play like Brady is not who he is and is a skill/scheme mismatch. But to a degree it makes sense if they are developing him for the long haul, since those are areas of weakness that he does need experience with. Again, we didn't really use what Josh is good at that much as well (conjecture as I don't feel like going to look up particular stats on plays)

A few games come to mind with Josh Allen being thrown into a raging torrent to see if he sinks or swims.

 

Against the Browns with Myles Garrett the leading or near leading pass rusher at the time and asking Allen to throw 41 times in that game. Meanwhile, Singletary gets only 8 carries. Daboll stated after the game that the Browns were stacking the box.  What utter Bullcrap!   With 18 passes by Allen in the first half and only 3 runs in that first half by Singletary. Those three runs by Motor, 1st for 4 yards, 2nd for 9 yards, 3rd for 8 yards. 

 

The Broncos week 12 and the Denver strong point at that time was their run defense which was top 5. Daboll calls for 47 runs against them?? The Bills answered with 244 yards on the ground, Singletary 21 rushes for 106 yards. Gore had 15 rushes for 65 yards. 

 

Looking back its almost like Daboll purposely has his offense go against the strongest part of a defense. 

 

The Ravens, with it known that they run that cover zero blitz 50% of the time before the game. The Bills played on Thurs and had extra time to prepare, watch film. And here is Daboll asking Allen to throw a few deep at first while knowing Allen's deep ball placement has been off all season. He missed those deep throws so the Ravens defense went into a cover zero frenzy by blitzing 60%, 6 sacks on Allen. His stats, 17 of 39 passes for 146 1 TD. a QBR of 14.3. A great way to demoralize a young QB. 

 

The Texans game was the end of it with a 16 point lead and asking Allen to throw 48 times in that game is ludicrous!  The lead target in that game was Duke Williams with 10, which wouldn't be a big deal if the guy had been taking first string snaps most of the season instead of just the last two games. What the Bills should have done was worked that run game hard in the second half. Once they saw Gore was ineffective they should have run anyone but him, McKenzie, DeMarco, Allen, Motor...hell, hand it off to Knox. 

 

I don't know it for certain, but sometimes I get the impression that Daboll gets on the phone to Josh McDaniel's after some games so they can have a good laugh together on how he screwed the Buffalo Bills. He knows this is just a temp job with a former hated rival. If I were McD I'd fire his arse and see if Jim Caldwell wanted the job as Bills OC. 

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And I think that's a fair argument.  My ideal situation would be, as I said, Daboll and McDermott sit down and do some honest self-scouting on offense - Daboll gets some tips on the "defensive viewpoint" on his play selection and sequence - and come back with improved talent and execution all around.    If we can expect Allen to improve, can we reasonably expect Daboll to improve?

You describe exactly what will happen in the off season. It's the process.  Study, evaluate, learn, improve. Daboll went be the same coach next season.  If McD didn't believe he would improve, Beane and McD would have moved on. 

 

Doesn't mean he WILL improve, but o think it's a good bet. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I think it's possible that they saw a very smart young player and thought THEY could achieve the highly inadvisable:

 

Teach him a highly complex offense when he was coming from very inexperienced, basic background.......all on the fly at the NFL level as a rookie/year 2 QB with a mediocre supporting cast.

 

If it fails...........in retrospect it will seem to have been absurd idea from coaches with a bit too much confidence in themselves.

 

If it works then maybe he becomes a star QB while other young QB's who have operated dumbed down offenses more efficiently as young QB's struggle to adapt.

 

I think it's possible that Daboll is a guy who places too much weight on what goes on in film sessions, meetings, and practice.  One line of evidence for this POV is Peterman.  By all accounts, Peterman was a wizard at the whiteboard and with film.  Great understanding, saw everything on film.  Couldn't make it work in live action.

 

By all accounts, Allen is also very smart and has worked hard.  And I'd wager that the throws that abandon him under pressure in game situations, are hitting 3-2-1-liftoff in practice, when he knows he isn't gonna get hit.

 

So Daboll goes for the abstract "best" solution to the problems posed by various defenses, instead of looking for the most foolproof, highest probability of success under pressure solution.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

A few games come to mind with Josh Allen being thrown into a raging torrent to see if he sinks or swims.

 

Against the Browns with Myles Garrett the leading or near leading pass rusher at the time and asking Allen to throw 41 times in that game. Meanwhile, Singletary gets only 8 carries. Daboll stated after the game that the Browns were stacking the box.  What utter Bullcrap!   With 18 passes by Allen in the first half and only 3 runs in that first half by Singletary. Those three runs by Motor, 1st for 4 yards, 2nd for 9 yards, 3rd for 8 yards. 

 

The Broncos week 12 and the Denver strong point at that time was their run defense which was top 5. Daboll calls for 47 runs against them?? The Bills answered with 244 yards on the ground, Singletary 21 rushes for 106 yards. Gore had 15 rushes for 65 yards. 

 

Looking back its almost like Daboll purposely has his offense go against the strongest part of a defense. 

 

The Ravens, with it known that they run that cover zero blitz 50% of the time before the game. The Bills played on Thurs and had extra time to prepare, watch film. And here is Daboll asking Allen to throw a few deep at first while knowing Allen's deep ball placement has been off all season. He missed those deep throws so the Ravens defense went into a cover zero frenzy by blitzing 60%, 6 sacks on Allen. His stats, 17 of 39 passes for 146 1 TD. a QBR of 14.3. A great way to demoralize a young QB. 

 

The Texans game was the end of it with a 16 point lead and asking Allen to throw 48 times in that game is ludicrous!  The lead target in that game was Duke Williams with 10, which wouldn't be a big deal if the guy had been taking first string snaps most of the season instead of just the last two games. What the Bills should have done was worked that run game hard in the second half. Once they saw Gore was ineffective they should have run anyone but him, McKenzie, DeMarco, Allen, Motor...hell, hand it off to Knox. 

 

I don't know it for certain, but sometimes I get the impression that Daboll gets on the phone to Josh McDaniel's after some games so they can have a good laugh together on how he screwed the Buffalo Bills. He knows this is just a temp job with a former hated rival. If I were McD I'd fire his arse and see if Jim Caldwell wanted the job as Bills OC. 

I like these arguments, but I'm guessing there's more going on than you think.  I mean, what you say sounds correct and is consistent with what I recall from those games. 

 

But if you were right about all this, McD would have fired Daboll at the end of the season.  That tells me McD has a different take on that scenario than you.  I can't tell fou what that is, but I know McD isnt slow to let go of people who aren't getting the job done. 

[Coach Tuesday]

17 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I think it's possible that they saw a very smart young player and thought THEY could achieve the highly inadvisable:

 

Teach him a highly complex offense when he was coming from very inexperienced, basic background.......all on the fly at the NFL level as a rookie/year 2 QB with a mediocre supporting cast.

 

If it fails...........in retrospect it will seem to have been absurd idea from coaches with a bit too much confidence in themselves.

 

If it works then maybe he becomes a star QB while other young QB's who have operated dumbed down offenses more efficiently as young QB's struggle to adapt.

 

The thing is.........there is a reason that the formula is to load the offense with playmakers  and adapt the offense to what the young QB can do............because it's been working.

 

You could argue that it worked for the Bills this year but realistically it was a very lopsidedly defensive team.

 

It also could be as simple as, you have a smart QB with all of the athletic tools he'd ever need - you try to harness them all.

 

Contrast that to what Arthur Smith is doing with a more limited passer - sometimes keeping it simple is the best approach and sometimes coaches get too enticed by athletic ability.  Put another way, sometimes I think it's better for everyone, including the coaches, if you're boxed in by an athlete's known ceiling because it forces you to conform your system to it...

[MAJBobby]

27 minutes ago, Like A Mofo said:

Obviously Daboll was interested, so why not let him go?

How it that obvious?

[BuffaloHokie13]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

How it that obvious?

Well, their QB threw for 300 yards in his first start. He's clearly better than Allen.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

Now WITHIN the scheme there were fixes as well, IMO.  

 

After the Cleveland game I made the very simple observation that they need to get the athletic Allen into a rhythm by increasing the tempo of the offense.

 

Days later "play fearless" became a thing and with a clearly more comfortable Allen they proceeded to pick up the pace and the offense improved greatly.

 

Then after all but clinching a playoff spot in Dallas and facing a tougher schedule...........the offense went back to what wasn't working before and proceeded to be awful and the team lost 4 of their last 5.

 

Just a point that an intrinsic part of what they were doing with the no-huddle was using the same personnel with a 1-1 set featuring Singletary, Knox, and Isaiah McKensie.  They didn't abandon this after Dallas - they went into the Ravens game with this as the plan.  (You can verify this by comparing snap counts for Dallas and Baltimore, which are the same except for a different split between McKensie and Foster.  Then look at Pittsburgh.)

 

They abandoned the 11 set and the no-huddle after the Ravens game because it just wasn't working.  Knox and Singletary were not able to provide sufficient protection for Allen against a stout, attacking defense such as the Ravens.  Knox is the one who got beaten like a drum by Judon for the strip-sack.   Erik Turner, either writing for the Athletic or as Cover1, broke down how the Ravens froze Singletary to make him too late for the assist.  McKensie was also ineffective against that physical style of DB play and Beasley and Brown were hampered by it.

 

The Steelers and NE, our next two games, play a similar attacking physical style of defense, and we went back to changing the personnel package to involve the better blockers vs Pittsburgh (Lee Smith, Patrick DiMarco, Gore, Kroft, Andre Roberts) then once we'd clinched, mixing it up to seek something that would be a 'happy medium' against the Pats - less Smith, less DiMarco, more Roberts and Kroft.  The results weren't happy.

 

The point is, they didn't abandon the no-huddle offense after Dallas for inexplicable reasons, they used it in the Ravens game and abandoned it because the Ravens kicked its butt and everybody got the film - including the Texans.  If I'm not mistaken, Crennell used a variation of the same defense of the Judon strip sack, on the Mercilus strip sack - it was Kroft not Knox and Singletary got there faster, but they still couldn't get it done.

 

Of course, if Allen could learn to either keep his ass within the comfortable shade provided by Dawkins big butt while he's waiting for Beasley to work open OR decide promptly that he's gonna run for it and tuck the ball away in a claw grip, that would help the outcome, but that's another story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

50 minutes ago, gobills1212 said:

No. How is this still a thing? Head coach and other coach (coordinator) are the only 2 categories 

I think I am behind the times. For years, teams could get around this by inventing new titles. But after researching it a bit, it looks like the NFL changed the rules on this. So, now, all position coaches are in 1 category. I think that even means that a team can block their line coach from going to be an OC elsewhere. 

 

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/packers/packers-often-deny-assistants-permission-to-interview-with-other-teams-ks87jo8-185390861.html/
 

Until about five years ago, the NFL permitted position coaches to interview for jobs short of head coach that represented clear-cut promotions even if they had time remaining on their contracts.

But after teams started to invent all kinds of titles to make their assistants immune from raids, the NFL decided on a blanket rule for coaches under contract.

[Nihilarian]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I like these arguments, but I'm guessing there's more going on than you think.  I mean, what you say sounds correct and is consistent with what I recall from those games. 

 

But if you were right about all this, McD would have fired Daboll at the end of the season.  That tells me McD has a different take on that scenario than you.  I can't tell fou what that is, but I know McD isnt slow to let go of people who aren't getting the job done. 

There is no question in my view that McD and Frazier are downright brilliant at what they do on defense.

 

By the same token I think McD is literally "hands off" on offense and leaves everything to his offensive coordinator and assistants.

 

I'm hoping this off season McD takes a long hard look at the Bills offense and game plans. This seasons ending wasn't on Beane, or McD in my view. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

There is no question in my view that McD and Frazier are downright brilliant at what they do on defense.

By the same token I think McD is literally "hands off" on offense and leaves everything to his offensive coordinator and assistants.

 

In his end of season presser, McDermott acknowledged having "conversations" with Daboll "as time allows" during the game.  He said Daboll calls the plays.

 

He has given blame to "coaching -it starts with me" during post-game pressers after a bad offensive performance, which I take it as indicating he takes responsibility and mixes it in sometimes. In particular, he said that after the Browns loss.  The following week Daboll moved to the booth (McD said it was something he and Daboll discussed) and the Bills came out with that 11 set, hurry-up offense that they used successfully for the next 3 games before it crashed and burned against the Ravens.

 

So no, I don't think he leaves everything to Daboll.

 

4 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I'm hoping this off season McD takes a long hard look at the Bills offense and game plans. This seasons ending wasn't on Beane, or McD in my view. 

 

Agreed about the hard look.  I can't absolve anyone though.

 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that after problematic series where Allen seems rattled, sometimes he is seen sitting alone on the bench.  It seems to me that Dorsey or some other offensive player should be in his ear reminding him "do your 1/11" and helping him focus on the film, his footwork, anything concrete to keep him from going into Hero Mode.

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

By the time the 2017 camp was over and the season started it was still 9 returning starters from 2016.............but a mere change of scheme and play caller created a totally impotent, pathetic, unwatchable offensive attack.

 

So we know from recent history that a good play caller with a good scheme can elevate talent and the reverse can mute talent or worse.

 

We also saw it in reverse when Rex Roman and Anthony Lynn arrived our offense was really bad.

 

Then with a new QB and a lot of the same guys went from 18th in scoring (Think about that.  Hackett's offense with EJ/Orton at QB averaged 2 points per game more than we did this year with Josh as our franchise QB) to 12th in 2015 and then 10th in 2016.

 

Meanwhile, Daboll has taken us from 22nd in scoring in 2017 to 24th in 2019.

Edited January 16, 2020 by reddogblitz

[Logic]

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

 I wanted to really see Allen's progress this year and what he can do & felt the offense, the playcalling & schemes didn't allow that.  

This is such a weird argument to me.

There are scores and scores of articles talking about how much ownership Allen had over the scheme, how much influence he had over the offense as a whole. Daboll literally asked him "what do you like? What don't you like?", and built the offense on those answers. 

And that's just the scheme. As for the play-calling -- which I agree left a lot to be desired at times this season -- Allen had big ownership over THAT, too! He was allowed to audible and check into and out of run and pass plays and set his own protections. There were numerous instances this year of Allen either setting the wrong protections (happened in the playoff game), checking into a run play with disastrous results (the dumb Frank Gore run just before halftime against the Texans), or generally influencing the play before the snap in a way that was not beneficial for the offense.

The only critique of Daboll that holds any merit to me is that he sometimes has head-scratching stretches of play-calling at inopportune times. To say that his scheme or play-calling held Allen back, though, is to me the LEAST legitimate complaint one can have about Daboll. He literally built the offense FOR Allen and based largely on his input, strengths, and weaknesses.

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

The only critique of Daboll that holds any merit to me is that he sometimes has head-scratching stretches of play-calling at inopportune times. To say that his scheme or play-calling held Allen back, though, is to me the LEAST legitimate complaint one can have about Daboll. He literally built the offense FOR Allen and based largely on his input, strengths, and weaknesses.

 

My biggest playcalling issue - purely anecdotally, I may be 100% wrong - is that he seems to lose his feel for the game between the 40s.  He's great a scheming them out of it when they're pinned deep, and his redzone play calling for the most part is good.  But midfield is where things seemed to stall out last year, to my untrained eye.  They'd work hard to cross midfield and then he'd inexplicably call some stupid end-around or two straight power runs with Gore and the drive would end.

[reddogblitz]

9 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

My biggest playcalling issue - purely anecdotally, I may be 100% wrong - is that he seems to lose his feel for the game between the 40s.  He's great a scheming them out of it when they're pinned deep, and his redzone play calling for the most part is good.  But midfield is where things seemed to stall out last year, to my untrained eye.  They'd work hard to cross midfield and then he'd inexplicably call some stupid end-around or two straight power runs with Gore and the drive would end.

 

This is my impression as well with the offense.  They could move the football pretty well at times. But as you say once they get to the outskirts of FG range, drives would bog down and often we'd get nothing out of it.  Happened a couple of times in the Texans game.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

58 minutes ago, Logic said:

This is such a weird argument to me.

There are scores and scores of articles talking about how much ownership Allen had over the scheme, how much influence he had over the offense as a whole. Daboll literally asked him "what do you like? What don't you like?", and built the offense on those answers. 

And that's just the scheme. As for the play-calling -- which I agree left a lot to be desired at times this season -- Allen had big ownership over THAT, too! He was allowed to audible and check into and out of run and pass plays and set his own protections. There were numerous instances this year of Allen either setting the wrong protections (happened in the playoff game), checking into a run play with disastrous results (the dumb Frank Gore run just before halftime against the Texans), or generally influencing the play before the snap in a way that was not beneficial for the offense.

The only critique of Daboll that holds any merit to me is that he sometimes has head-scratching stretches of play-calling at inopportune times. To say that his scheme or play-calling held Allen back, though, is to me the LEAST legitimate complaint one can have about Daboll. He literally built the offense FOR Allen and based largely on his input, strengths, and weaknesses.

 

Interesting.  Can you happen to link to a handful of those scores and scores of articles about how Daboll literally asked him "what do you like? What don't you like?", and built the offense on those answers?  Would like to read.

 

 

[Nihilarian]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just a point that an intrinsic part of what they were doing with the no-huddle was using the same personnel with a 1-1 set featuring Singletary, Knox, and Isaiah McKensie.

They didn't abandon this after Dallas - they went into the Ravens game with this as the plan.  (You can verify this by comparing snap counts for Dallas and Baltimore, which are the same except for a different split between McKensie and Foster)

 

They abandoned this after the Ravens game because it just wasn't working.  Knox and Singletary were not able to provide sufficient protection for Allen against a stout, attacking defense such as the Ravens.  Knox is the one who got beaten like a drum by Judon for the strip-sack.   Erik Turner, either writing for the Athletic or as Cover1, broke down how the Ravens were freezing Singletary to make him too late for the assist.  McKensie was also ineffective against that physical style of DB play and Beasley and Brown were hampered by it.

 

The Steelers and NE, our next two games, play a similar attacking physical style of defense, and we went back to changing the personnel package to involve the better blockers vs Pittsburgh (Lee Smith, Patrick DiMarco, Gore, Kroft, Andre Roberts) then once we'd clinched, mixing it up to fish for some happy medium against the Pats.

 

The point is, they didn't abandon the no-huddle offense after Dallas for inexplicable reasons, they used it in the Ravens game and abandoned it because the Ravens kicked its butt and everybody got the film - including the Texans.  If I'm not mistaken, Crennell used a variation of the same defense of the Judon strip sack, on the Mercilus strip sack - it was Kroft not Knox and Singletary got there faster, but they still couldn't get it done.

 

Of course, if Allen could learn to either keep his ass within the comfortable shade provided by Dawkins big butt while he's waiting for Beasley to work open OR decide promptly that he's gonna run for it and tuck the ball away in a claw grip, that would help the outcome, but that's another story.

Thank you for this post as it gives some insight into whats happening with specific players in games.

 

I think you can say that both Knox and Singletary were somewhat of a detriment to the blocking assignments considering both were rookies and picking up blitzes takes time to adjust to at the NFL level. Perhaps if the defense saw Singletary in the backfield they knew it was a bigger chance for a run. 

 

What does stand out greatly to me is the lack of ability to quickly make adjustments on offense during a game. Scheme, line, protections, blocking assignments. That is, if something is not working as defenses have adjusted to that scheme. Simply switch to something different that will work. The Bills literally had no answer for what Baltimore was doing on defense with that cover zero blitz. Yet, they had extra time to prepare against it. 

 

We all saw Josh Allen getting hammered by the Ravens defense...so why keep asking him to throw it? Doesn't it make more sense to keep pounding the ball even if it doesn't work all that effectively at first. To instead have the Bills RBs hammer at the Ravens defense to wear them out.

 

This looks to be another flaw in having an OC that doesn't recognize his players limitations and adjust the scheme accordingly to be able to make the offense work no matter what they throw at you.

I think its kind of crazy that the Texans had the very worst red zone defense in the league and the Bills couldn't find a way to get a TD on four of those five red zone chances. 

 

Another thing that bothers me is the way the Tennessee Titans basically destroyed the Baltimore Ravens in that playoff game in Baltimore by running the ball down their throats. While using the Bills defensive scheme to shut down that high scoring Ravens offense. Do the Titans have that much of a better offensive line? They sure do look like they were coached better.