NYG requested permission to interview Daboll for OC - DENIED

[Coach Tuesday]

5 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

Judge is not allowed to pursue any coaches under contract so would not have called Daboll - in fact, everything goes through the Bills. They would be the ones to make him aware. The only other way to have a “discussion” about him for the job  would be agent to agent. 

 

I don't think that's at all how it works.  These guys talk to each other all the time and a coach is rarely going to have on his list someone who he hasn't spoken to (directly, or indirectly via an agent or mutual contact) before putting them on their prospect list.  Too much is at stake for a coach to do that without any kind of assurances or checks.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

That was my first thought.

Before asking for permission you would think that Judge and Daboll had some kind of conversation.

Maybe there was some friction with McD about how the season went/ended?

Does he want a fresh start after two lousy production years in Buffalo?   Get out before his stock drops?

Maybe he prefers Daniel Jones(who had a 5 TD game and looked quite promising) to what he has in the high ceiling but scattershot Josh Allen?

 

Interesting points but not sure it sums to that.  Counterpoints from each side:

-There are all sorts of reasons to ask for permission to interview a guy who is not available - one is PR, to make it look like you're conducting a wider search than you really are

-It's a small world.  Face-saving for Daboll to tell his pal Joe, "be happy to interview with you, but you need my team's permission".  Beane or McDermott then get to be the bad guys who say "Nope, Blocked" instead of Daboll snubbing his buddy and maybe breeding bad feelings that could come back to bite him.

 

If Daboll sincerely wanted to make that lateral move, it's hard for me to imagine that McDermott wouldn't say "you want off the bus, don't let the door hitcha where the Good Lord splitcha" if Daboll came to him and said "It's been great, Sean, but I really want to go work with my pal Joe Judge now"

 

I'm sure there had to be friction about how the season went/ended. 

[Dopey]

1 hour ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

If you don't fire him, at least bring in someone else to call plays and make the offensive game plans.  If this doesn't happen, are there smarter people making these decisions?

Hopefully your first sentence was a stab at sarcasm. 

[Reed83HOF]

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

It's intriguing to me that by throwing a lot at Allen it could make him a better QB in the long run...........and hopefully it's a LONG run...........but it feels forced to say the least.

 

There is no point in drafting a Josh Allen to make him a game manager.

 

I genuinely had these thoughts during the seasons. Your first point has some challenges associated with it:

 

1.) Have Allen get more reps against live defenses

2.) This could be one of the reasons we (IMO) stubbornly kept playing Ford at RT

 

Are they willing to sacrifice winning a game and even costing ourselves "the season" in the name of development?

 

3.) Still doesn't explain the reliance on Gore and Yeldon being inactive once it was very apparent Gore was toast - Why take Devin out of the playoff game for Gore? It doesn't help his development

4.) With the season on the line in Houston why the hell are DiMarco and Lee Smith out there? Neither of them are going to make a play for Allen, rightfully so hero ball Josh came out in that instance...

 

I get that it is a fine line and where you could maybe make a case for development over the long run -  we do stupid things that fly in the face of that as well.

 

Your last point I don't think anyone can argue about that. Making Allen play like Brady is not who he is and is a skill/scheme mismatch. But to a degree it makes sense if they are developing him for the long haul, since those are areas of weakness that he does need experience with. Again, we didn't really use what Josh is good at that much as well (conjecture as I don't feel like going to look up particular stats on plays)

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

For some reason.......with Brian Daboll a large group of Bills fans actively choose to ignore the basic tenet that a good coach builds the system around the players.

 

That has not been the case here.

 

It's intriguing to me that by throwing a lot at Allen it could make him a better QB in the long run...........and hopefully it's a LONG run...........but it feels forced to say the least.

 

There is no point in drafting a Josh Allen to make him a game manager.

Would you explain what Daboll should have done differently with this personnel?

 

The Bills just didn't seem to be able to put up large numbers of points. It looked to me that they needed more accuracy in the passing game and more talent at wide receiver.

 

I am not saying that you are wrong, just wondering what should have been done if you agree that these 2 issues were problems.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Bill from NYC

[Formerly Allan in MD]

12 hours ago, BillsFan4 said:

GTFOH Giants. 

 

I’m glad the Bills denied it. There’s no reason to let Daboll interview for a lateral move unless the Bills are trying to get rid of him (which quite clearly they’re not). I want continuity for Josh and the entire offense. Daboll has been good for Allen’s development so far and there’s no reason to mess with that IMO.

 

People like to assume a new OC would be better for Allen but the opposite could also be true. If most of us agree that Josh is developing pretty nicely so far, why do people want to mess with that? I’ve been a Bills fan (and a sports fan in general) long enough to know that the next hire isn’t always automatically better than the previous one. 

You had a problem with Jauron and Rex?

[JerseyBills]

13 hours ago, BuffaloBills1998 said:

Why deny them go ahead and give him away, his play calling has set this offense back

Sarcasm or not , ppl feel this way. 

I am now fully on board with him staying, glad actually. He did much better in the booth , he's open minded , getting players thoughts and ideas on play calling . He'll have at the least , Allen , Motor,Knox,Brown,Beez , majority ,if not all the same OL and likely a huge upgrade at RB,WR and possibly TE to pair with Knox. Players , especially Allen, love him.

Love the continuity, while I hated his play calling at Hou and other games, I feel he'll learn, grow, evolve from it. 

[ghostwriter]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm having trouble parsing this.

If we need to "drastically rehaul" the skill positions and tweak the OL, what does "meat and potatoes is there" mean to you?

I hope our offense will improve under Daboll next year. 

By meat and potatoes I mean our OL and core players. By upgrading RT we can move Ford to LG and our line is above average. Two birds, one stone. Dawkins, Feliciano, Morse, Ford, Knox, Brown, Beasley and Allen Is a great base for a stew but I think RB and WR will look a lot different after April. Could use another RB and a few WRs but the nucleus is still there.

 

[reddogblitz]

5 hours ago, Dopey said:

We can blame the players who dropped a ton of passes and missed a ton of blocks, along with an OC who was learning how to use a whole new group of offensive players. Nine new players is not an excuse, it's a reason. 

This is a year and a half for Josh playing under Daboll. I don't think anyone is satisfied, but we did see Josh progress. I think the people that want him back saw the progression of the offense and look forward to more. Next year, Daboll won't have the excuse of all new personnel. I don't think he'll need the excuse though. Our offense will be a lot better and you'll get your wish, Daboll will be a HC after next season.

 

OK, so it's not the offense itself, or Dabol, it's because we had 9 new players on offense in year 3 of the rebuild. 

 

If you are a crack GM/talent evaluator, why after 2 years of rebuilding, do you have to flush 82% of your offense and start over?

 

Oh well, Beane himself said he did a bad job of getting offensive talent together or 2018.  Well, he did exactly the same in 2019 AND 2017.

 

If the excuse/reason is Dabol's offense stunk because he had all new players and they screwed up a lot, then it's on Beane and he needs to get his act together offensively and find better players that can run Dabol's complex offense.  His whole philosophy of moving up to draft a QB with the 7th pick in the draft and NOT adding a lot of talent to help him succeed is odd.  now in year 4 allegedly we are finally going to get some top notch WRs.

 

These guys obviously know Defense but I seriously question their knowledge of Offense.   After 3 years of rebuilding you're 24th in Offense.  OK, stay the course.  It's working.

Edited January 16, 2020 by reddogblitz

[Logic]

5 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

If we can't blame Daboll, then who is to blame?  I am so sick of people happy with an Offense that struggles to put teams away, put up 20 points & incapable of passing for 300 yards.

 

The QB who still needs to make big strides, the below average right tackle play, and the below average offensive personnel that led the league in drops and was bereft of game-breaking playmakers?

I'm not saying that Daboll should be COMPLETELY absolved of blame, but to say that he should be the SOLE object of blame is silly. 

It's much easier to point the finger at the offensive coordinator than to admit that your quarterback didn't play well enough and your offensive personnel wasn't good enough.

Sometimes its the Xs and Os, sometimes its the Willies and Joes. There's blame to go around. Personally, I'd like to see what Daboll can do with some legitimate offensive personnel and better QB play before I'm ready to let him walk away.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Logic

[Billsfan1972]

8 minutes ago, Logic said:

The QB who still needs to make big strides, the below average right tackle play, and the below average offensive personnel that led the league in drops and was bereft of game-breaking playmakers?

I'm not saying that Daboll should be COMPLETELY absolved of blame, but to say that he should be the SOLE object of blame is silly. 

It's much easier to point the finger at the offensive coordinator than to admit that your quarterback didn't play well enough and your offensive personnel wasn't good enough.

Sometimes its the Xs and Os, sometimes its the Willies and Joes. There's blame to go around. Personally, I'd like to see what Daboll can do with some legitimate offensive personnel and better QB play before I'm ready to let him walk away.

And I blame Daboll more then Allen & that is the conundrum.  I wanted to really see Allen's progress this year and what he can do & felt the offense, the playcalling & schemes didn't allow that.  

 

Geez 24th ranked offense in the NFL & people are knocking on his door?  To me that says Allen is terrible & Daboll was so good at hiding his flaws that he's a genius.  

 

If I'm looking for an Offensive Coordinator, I'm interviewing those looking after a top 10 Offense, not #24......

[hjnick]

13 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Trade Daboll for their 1st Round Pick.

[DrDawkinstein]

21 minutes ago, Logic said:

The QB who still needs to make big strides, the below average right tackle play, and the below average offensive personnel that led the league in drops and was bereft of game-breaking playmakers?

I'm not saying that Daboll should be COMPLETELY absolved of blame, but to say that he should be the SOLE object of blame is silly. 

 

 

Hmm, almost like it's a TEAM sport, and everyone affects each other's success or failure... WEIRD!

[Jauronimo]

The players speak highly of Daboll, particularly Beasely and Allen.  For the sake of Allen's development I would like to see him and Daboll have on more year together before making any judgement.  So often we see young QBs go through a carousel of OCs each with a different playbook and philosophy.  I want Allen to have another year to learn to play QB in teh current system with a consistent voice rather than see him learn a brand new playbook.

[Reed83HOF]

1 minute ago, Jauronimo said:

The players speak highly of Daboll, particularly Beasely and Allen.  For the sake of Allen's development I would like to see him and Daboll have on more year together before making any judgement.  So often we see young QBs go through a carousel of OCs each with a different playbook and philosophy.  I want Allen to have another year to learn to play QB in teh current system with a consistent voice rather than see him learn a brand new playbook.

I don't want Allen to worry about learning to play in another offensive system.

 

I want him to worry about actually playing the position of QB and being able to make reads, call correct audibles and get the ball to the WR/TE/RB accurately and on time...

[BADOLBILZ]

43 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Would you explain what Daboll should have done differently with this personnel?

 

The Bills just didn't seem to be able to put up large numbers of points. It looked to me that they needed more accuracy in the passing game and more talent at wide receiver.

 

I am not saying that you are wrong, just wondering what should have been done if you agree that these 2 issues were problems.

 

 

I look at it like this.........in McD's first year he brought 10 offensive starters to camp from an offense that under Rex....with Lynn at coordinator.....had lead the NFL in rushing AND big plays AND had scored a lot of points and turned the ball over at a record low pace.    And the two starters they lost(Watkins/Woods) had been in and out of the lineup all thru 2016.  They had very little passing offense in 2016 but were still very effective.

 

By the time the 2017 camp was over and the season started it was still 9 returning starters from 2016.............but a mere change of scheme and play caller created a totally impotent, pathetic, unwatchable offensive attack.

 

So we know from recent history that a good play caller with a good scheme can elevate talent and the reverse can mute talent or worse.

 

So when I look at what the Bills have done under Daboll I wonder why they didn't try to create a running game similar to what the Bills did under Roman/Lynn and a vertical passing attack to complement it.

 

In adding Brown and Beasley I believe Daboll moved deeper into his complex scheme............which had the consequence of making the previously dynamic Robert Foster,  who failed to grasp the complexity of the 2019 offense,  a non-factor.

 

Why not add to Foster and remain more vertical as they were late in 2018 after they had been historically bad during the first half of that season?

 

Because Daboll wants to run HIS scheme........whether it works or not.

 

Now WITHIN the scheme there were fixes as well, IMO.  

 

After the Cleveland game I made the very simple observation that they need to get the athletic Allen into a rhythm by increasing the tempo of the offense.

 

Days later "play fearless" became a thing and with a clearly more comfortable Allen they proceeded to pick up the pace and the offense improved greatly.

 

Then after all but clinching a playoff spot in Dallas and facing a tougher schedule...........the offense went back to what wasn't working before and proceeded to be awful and the team lost 4 of their last 5.

 

 

[gobills1212]

14 hours ago, JR in Pittsburgh said:

Can’t they get around this by interviewing him for “assistant head coach?”

No. How is this still a thing? Head coach and other coach (coordinator) are the only 2 categories 

[Like A Mofo]

Obviously Daboll was interested, so why not let him go?

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

I genuinely had these thoughts during the seasons. Your first point has some challenges associated with it:

 

1.) Have Allen get more reps against live defenses

2.) This could be one of the reasons we (IMO) stubbornly kept playing Ford at RT

 

Are they willing to sacrifice winning a game and even costing ourselves "the season" in the name of development?

 

3.) Still doesn't explain the reliance on Gore and Yeldon being inactive once it was very apparent Gore was toast - Why take Devin out of the playoff game for Gore? It doesn't help his development

4.) With the season on the line in Houston why the hell are DiMarco and Lee Smith out there? Neither of them are going to make a play for Allen, rightfully so hero ball Josh came out in that instance...

 

I get that it is a fine line and where you could maybe make a case for development over the long run -  we do stupid things that fly in the face of that as well.

 

Your last point I don't think anyone can argue about that. Making Allen play like Brady is not who he is and is a skill/scheme mismatch. But to a degree it makes sense if they are developing him for the long haul, since those are areas of weakness that he does need experience with. Again, we didn't really use what Josh is good at that much as well (conjecture as I don't feel like going to look up particular stats on plays)

 

 

I think it's possible that they saw a very smart young player and thought THEY could achieve the highly inadvisable:

 

Teach him a highly complex offense when he was coming from very inexperienced, basic background.......all on the fly at the NFL level as a rookie/year 2 QB with a mediocre supporting cast.

 

If it fails...........in retrospect it will seem to have been absurd idea from coaches with a bit too much confidence in themselves.

 

If it works then maybe he becomes a star QB while other young QB's who have operated dumbed down offenses more efficiently as young QB's struggle to adapt.

 

The thing is.........there is a reason that the formula is to load the offense with playmakers  and adapt the offense to what the young QB can do............because it's been working.

 

You could argue that it worked for the Bills this year but realistically it was a very lopsidedly defensive team.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

40 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

The players speak highly of Daboll, particularly Beasely and Allen.  For the sake of Allen's development I would like to see him and Daboll have on more year together before making any judgement.  So often we see young QBs go through a carousel of OCs each with a different playbook and philosophy.  I want Allen to have another year to learn to play QB in teh current system with a consistent voice rather than see him learn a brand new playbook.

 

And I think that's a fair argument.  My ideal situation would be, as I said, Daboll and McDermott sit down and do some honest self-scouting on offense - Daboll gets some tips on the "defensive viewpoint" on his play selection and sequence - and come back with improved talent and execution all around.    If we can expect Allen to improve, can we reasonably expect Daboll to improve?