Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 5 hours ago, FireChans said: The less talked about move that McD made early was letting Robert Woods leave the building. 2 consecutive 1000 yards seasons with the Rams. Hard worker. Good blocker. Watkins didn’t really pan out and was a good trade away but boy oh boy could the Bills and Allen used Woods in a big way. So what was he supposed to do tie woods to a chair and not let him leave. It was reported at the time that he wanted to go to a west coast team, considering the Bills just changed coaching staffs for the 3rd time in Woods years, can see why he's want nothing to do with staying here add that to the desire to go "Home". They likely would have had to way overpay for him to stay. Considering in 2017 he would have had TT still throwing to him and in 2018 four different QB's, what would lend you to think his stats would have been any different than the first four years in Buffalo, maybe 40 to 50 catches per season at best. Maybe this past year would have been similar to what he had in LA, but still wouldn't have had the rest of the offense he had around him in LA. Bills would be getting blasted for how much they over paid for Woods. Would the Bills have been better off keeping him, yes, but from what was reported, he didn't want to be here. 2
billsrul120 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: I don't recall the other games, but I know Gilmore covered Sammy the whole game in their playoff game last year, I just watched the replay of the game on the NFL Network Friday. The doubled Hill & Kelce with other guys. In that game he had 8 catches for 114 yards against what most people believe to be the best corner in the game. I wouldn't put it past the Pats to play gilmore over watkins hoping he can shut him down completely by himself because they felt the need to play zone against hill and they had players who could execute that on a high level. We also don't know to what extent Gilmore had any help that day vs how much help he may have in any normal game. The defensive gameplan was put together to stop Hill & Kelce. Watkins took advantage but it would be naive to think he would've caught that many balls if he was the focus of the Pats defensive effort.
billsfan_34 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/13/2020 at 4:21 PM, DrDawkinstein said: Only posting this since some folks have mentioned him as a potential FA WR target, and said he's grown and matured since his last run with the Bills. This tells me differently. Grabbin at straws- all players will display some sort of mannerism that may not be seen as positive but he certainly wasn’t screamin at Coach Reid- non story
Billsfan1972 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 19 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said: So what was he supposed to do tie woods to a chair and not let him leave. It was reported at the time that he wanted to go to a west coast team, considering the Bills just changed coaching staffs for the 3rd time in Woods years, can see why he's want nothing to do with staying here add that to the desire to go "Home". They likely would have had to way overpay for him to stay. Considering in 2017 he would have had TT still throwing to him and in 2018 four different QB's, what would lend you to think his stats would have been any different than the first four years in Buffalo, maybe 40 to 50 catches per season at best. Maybe this past year would have been similar to what he had in LA, but still wouldn't have had the rest of the offense he had around him in LA. Bills would be getting blasted for how much they over paid for Woods. Would the Bills have been better off keeping him, yes, but from what was reported, he didn't want to be here. Again, he was very good as a Rookie & had over 1000 yards in 12-13 games year 2 & missed half of year 3..... I would imagine if targeted like OBJ or Hopkins in 2017 & a playoff spot, he'd have been more then happy being a Bill. Explain to me why any skill position player would want to play for the 24th ranked offense & a Defense first coach in a cold weather small town. You need to overpay or there are no other choices. Hey I'm a Bill fan, just stating reality. 15 minutes ago, billsrul120 said: I wouldn't put it past the Pats to play gilmore over watkins hoping he can shut him down completely by himself because they felt the need to play zone against hill and they had players who could execute that on a high level. We also don't know to what extent Gilmore had any help that day vs how much help he may have in any normal game. The defensive gameplan was put together to stop Hill & Kelce. Watkins took advantage but it would be naive to think he would've caught that many balls if he was the focus of the Pats defensive effort. So now the #1 CB in the NFL couldn't cover a #3 receiver?????
Ed_Formerly_of_Roch Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Again, he was very good as a Rookie & had over 1000 yards in 12-13 games year 2 & missed half of year 3..... I would imagine if targeted like OBJ or Hopkins in 2017 & a playoff spot, he'd have been more then happy being a Bill. Explain to me why any skill position player would want to play for the 24th ranked offense & a Defense first coach in a cold weather small town. You need to overpay or there are no other choices. I was referring to Woods not Watkins. But in both cases, agree you'd likely need to way overpay
Alphadawg7 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) Lets get some facts straight that are getting skewed here: Robert Woods CHOSE to leave. McD did NOT cut him or jettison him, nor was he going to have final say on that anyway being in the building just a month. He wanted to go back home and play...period. Had nothing to do with the QB in Buffalo either, Rams had a 2nd year QB who was coming off a rookie season where he did not look good. They were not a a good team nor did they have a good QB yet. That offseason helped transform them into a good team, but at the time Woods joined them, they had not established themselves as a good team yet...just young and rebuilding. Watkins is talented. Watkins is NOT delivering the value of his contract. Watkins will likely be cut this offseason because of his contract. Watkins will have a strong market for his services once he is cut and still likely get a $10m+ per year deal. Bonus Opinion: Watkins will not be signed by Buffalo as I don't expect either side to be interested. I don't see Watkins wanting to come home to the regime that traded him in the first place, nor do I expect Beane to spend any sizable money in FA unless its for a DE. Landing Prediction: I think the 5 most likely teams he lands on next year are (in no particular order): Raiders, Jets, Eagles, Cardinals, Jaguars. Some other possible teams could be: Packers, Giants, Redskins, Dolphins, Broncos, Ravens, Colts. Edited January 20, 2020 by Alphadawg7 3
Doc Brown Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said: Would have rather seen what he could have done for 2017 as the Bills #1 receiver. I really don't know what happened in LA as he should have been the #1 option, but was not. Going to KC he was behind Hill & Kelce & after week 2 was not overly targeted (6/game). You can only catch when thrown to. Even his catches yesterday he wasn't the primary target on many of them. The Bills were trying to tank without actually saying it in 2017. That's the main reason. We needed a franchise QB and any draft assets would help us trade up to get one. Him and Darby were two assets that Beane felt didn't have a future with the Bills for different reasons. He wasn't going to give either of those two second contracts. Watkins has underwhelmed since he left here so I can't say he made the wrong decision. Heck, the Rams traded a 1st round pick for Cooks and let Watkins walk because they thought so little of him. Edited January 20, 2020 by Doc Brown 1
billsrul120 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Again, he was very good as a Rookie & had over 1000 yards in 12-13 games year 2 & missed half of year 3..... I would imagine if targeted like OBJ or Hopkins in 2017 & a playoff spot, he'd have been more then happy being a Bill. Explain to me why any skill position player would want to play for the 24th ranked offense & a Defense first coach in a cold weather small town. You need to overpay or there are no other choices. Hey I'm a Bill fan, just stating reality. So now the #1 CB in the NFL couldn't cover a #3 receiver????? Watkins caught 1 pass for 54 of those 114 on a play where there was a solid 6 seconds from snap to throw. I didn't go find the others but no I don't expect Gilmore to cover any nfl level WR by himself for 6 seconds. Not even if they are a 4 or omg a 5.? Edited January 20, 2020 by billsrul120
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 29 minutes ago, billsrul120 said: I wouldn't put it past the Pats to play gilmore over watkins hoping he can shut him down completely by himself because they felt the need to play zone against hill and they had players who could execute that on a high level. We also don't know to what extent Gilmore had any help that day vs how much help he may have in any normal game. The defensive gameplan was put together to stop Hill & Kelce. Watkins took advantage but it would be naive to think he would've caught that many balls if he was the focus of the Pats defensive effort. You said he was protected and didn't have to face the opponent's best defenders, I was simply pointing out that he not only faced the Pats*** best defender in last year's AFC Championship game, he faced the best corner currently playing in the NFL. Love these discussions where you prove something wrong and then immediately move on to another thing. Gilmore is often left on an island to cover his guy 1 on 1 with the remaining players focused on the rest of the offense. The one difference is most WRs can't put up those numbers against Gilmore. 1
billsrul120 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said: You said he was protected and didn't have to face the opponent's best defenders, I was simply pointing out that he not only faced the Pats*** best defender in last year's AFC Championship game, he faced the best corner currently playing in the NFL. Love these discussions where you prove something wrong and then immediately move on to another thing. Gilmore is often left on an island to cover his guy 1 on 1 with the remaining players focused on the rest of the offense. The one difference is most WRs can't put up those numbers against Gilmore. He faced the best defender in one game in which his team actually ended up losing. Sounds like the Pats defensive plan worked against a team whose qb threw 50 touchdowns and 5000 yards. The bolded is all conjecture.
BADOLBILZ Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 1 hour ago, thebandit27 said: Baltimore would make a TON of sense The Chiefs were phasing him out as the season went on........obviously they know they HAVE to cut him so it made sense to develop other players......and they don't lack for weapons.........but he's been makin' money in the playoffs this year..........if he has a good SB I could see somebody giving him a nice contract and Baltimore would definitely make sense. 1 1
reddogblitz Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: "An offense that was among the league's most effective"? That is utter nonsense. They were an offense that was good at running and below average at passing, an offense that wasn't able to catch up when they fell behind, and an offense that was greatly helped by the very solid defense, and an offense that though it didn't turn the ball over much consistently left the defense with crappy field position despite receiving good field position from that same defense. Like Tryrod or not, that offense was #10 in scoring in the NFL. An offenses job is to score points. Doesn't have to be pretty or what you like in regards to offensive styles to be effective. that offense didn't need to make gallant 4th quarter comebacks that often because they were able to score enough points so that the D could protect it. In 2017 there were only 3 opportunities for comebacks. In one, we were down 7 at the 2:00 warning and won by 3 in regulation( bucs). Another was against Carolina where Tyrod threw a pass to Zay that probably could have been caught if he had run the right route (Steve Taker, NFL WR said he ran the wrong route). And the third was Bengals which we blew. So that's 1 out of 3. Josh was able to get a few vs Jets, Titans, Dolphins but also missed on many oppotunites against mostly good teams like NE twice, Baltimore, Cleveland, Houston. If you add them all he's probably close to 3 out of 8 which not rally much of a higher percentage than we did before 33% vs 38% (maybe up to 50). But if we were able to score more points we wouldn't need all these comebacks especially with the defense we have.
thebandit27 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said: The Chiefs were phasing him out as the season went on........obviously they know they HAVE to cut him so it made sense to develop other players......and they don't lack for weapons.........but he's been makin' money in the playoffs this year..........if he has a good SB I could see somebody giving him a nice contract and Baltimore would definitely make sense. I know Ozzie doesn’t run the show anymore, but he checks all the boxes of an Ozzie signing: young veteran, big play ability, stolen from a rival AFC contender, doesn’t count against the comp pick formula, can probably be had at below market value. 3
Billsfan1972 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 40 minutes ago, billsrul120 said: Watkins caught 1 pass for 54 of those 114 on a play where there was a solid 6 seconds from snap to throw. I didn't go find the others but no I don't expect Gilmore to cover any nfl level WR by himself for 6 seconds. Not even if they are a 4 or omg a 5.? And don't forget yesterday's TD he was the third option as Mahomes ran around back there. The point was he produced when called upon. Here you go on that play. Watkins beat him plain & simple..... It happens.... https://www.chiefs.com/video/patrick-mahomes-makes-back-foot-54-yard-pass-to-sammy-watkins 1
GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 4 hours ago, BillsVet said: This is the biggest question heading into off-season #4 with McD. Is he going to change his stripes and embrace a high-powered offense featuring the QB they used so many resources to acquire? Or will he remain the HC who tried to sit on a 16 point lead in the wild card round and believes his defense is key to winning in the post-season? I would think year 3 of Allen they'll take the training wheels off the offense and trying to score more than their 20 points per. Organizational strategy needs to change this off-season. See I think there were issues with the offense... but sitting on leads or having the training wheels on Josh are not, for the most part, two of them. McDermott cannot be blamed in the same breath for being too conservative and for allowing his offense to throw too much with a lead. Yet on this board he seems to get both. They are not failing to score points because they are too conservative. They are failing to score enough points because their execution was a problem all year. 4
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 46 minutes ago, reddogblitz said: Like Tryrod or not, that offense was #10 in scoring in the NFL. An offenses job is to score points. Doesn't have to be pretty or what you like in regards to offensive styles to be effective. that offense didn't need to make gallant 4th quarter comebacks that often because they were able to score enough points so that the D could protect it. In 2017 there were only 3 opportunities for comebacks. In one, we were down 7 at the 2:00 warning and won by 3 in regulation( bucs). Another was against Carolina where Tyrod threw a pass to Zay that probably could have been caught if he had run the right route (Steve Taker, NFL WR said he ran the wrong route). And the third was Bengals which we blew. So that's 1 out of 3. Josh was able to get a few vs Jets, Titans, Dolphins but also missed on many oppotunites against mostly good teams like NE twice, Baltimore, Cleveland, Houston. If you add them all he's probably close to 3 out of 8 which not rally much of a higher percentage than we did before 33% vs 38% (maybe up to 50). But if we were able to score more points we wouldn't need all these comebacks especially with the defense we have. The 3 years Tyrod was the starting QB they ranked 2015 - 12th, 2016 - 10th & in 2017 - 22nd in points per game. The only year they made the playoffs, was the year they ranked 22nd & averaged less points a game(18.9) than this year's 22nd ranked offense(19.6). Sean came to the team in 2017 and the offense went from 10th in points per game at 24.9 and fell to 22nd at 18.9 points per game. Maybe, just maybe it's not all the QBs fault for the lack of points since we hired a defensive minded HC, who plays as conservative as any coach out there and that side of the ball was stripped of any talent they had prior. 3 1
BillsVet Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 48 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: See I think there were issues with the offense... but sitting on leads or having the training wheels on Josh are not, for the most part, two of them. McDermott cannot be blamed in the same breath for being too conservative and for allowing his offense to throw too much with a lead. Yet on this board he seems to get both. They are not failing to score points because they are too conservative. They are failing to score enough points because their execution was a problem all year. Here's Brandon Beane at the final presser: "And a lot of times, if you make the playoffs your last game is kind of emblematic of—if you don’t win it all, whether you go to the championship game or lose like we did—a lot of times it kind of shows you where your season went, where you’re good and where you need to get better. And I thought we saw that [on Saturday], we just didn’t score enough points." In the final game, Buffalo scored 13 points in the first half. Yet, in the second half they scored only 6. I'm sorry that you blame the players for not executing the McD designed game-plan. This argument ignores that McD is at center of organizational decision making. Because, if it's the players who aren't good enough for you, who is picking the players or having the major voice in that process? 2
GunnerBill Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 7 minutes ago, BillsVet said: Here's Brandon Beane at the final presser: "And a lot of times, if you make the playoffs your last game is kind of emblematic of—if you don’t win it all, whether you go to the championship game or lose like we did—a lot of times it kind of shows you where your season went, where you’re good and where you need to get better. And I thought we saw that [on Saturday], we just didn’t score enough points." In the final game, Buffalo scored 13 points in the first half. Yet, in the second half they scored only 6. I'm sorry that you blame the players for not executing the McD designed game-plan. This argument ignores that McD is at center of organizational decision making. Because, if it's the players who aren't good enough for you, who is picking the players or having the major voice in that process? Brandon Beane. There are lots of reasons we are not scoring enough points and lots of people who are responsible. But fundamentally it is because we don't have enough talent on that side of the ball and admitted such in that same press conference. He has to do a better job. I see a lot of people here crowning him.... and yet the one undoubted superstar this regime has drafted was drafted by McDermott before Beane got here. I think Beane has done okay. But he has to do a better job with offensive talent. 3
BillsVet Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Brandon Beane. There are lots of reasons we are not scoring enough points and lots of people who are responsible. But fundamentally it is because we don't have enough talent on that side of the ball and admitted such in that same press conference. He has to do a better job. I see a lot of people here crowning him.... and yet the one undoubted superstar this regime has drafted was drafted by McDermott before Beane got here. I think Beane has done okay. But he has to do a better job with offensive talent. After these last 2 posts, I don't know who you're blaming anymore. First it was the players not executing McD's scheme properly. Now it's Beane for not acquiring (even though McD runs the show) enough offensive talent?
Billsfan1972 Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 21 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Brandon Beane. There are lots of reasons we are not scoring enough points and lots of people who are responsible. But fundamentally it is because we don't have enough talent on that side of the ball and admitted such in that same press conference. He has to do a better job. I see a lot of people here crowning him.... and yet the one undoubted superstar this regime has drafted was drafted by McDermott before Beane got here. I think Beane has done okay. But he has to do a better job with offensive talent. And again how do you improve talent at the skill positions? I can't think there is a single FA who would believe a word Beane or McDermott says about the offense & their goals based on their actions the last three years. So the Bills would need to over pay & they won't do that. Now the draft is the key & we'll wait & see. Again the the concern is that if they produce, will they be paid? Who was the last highly paid player on the Bills Offense? BTW Watkins would have been the answer if he stayed & the Bills made sure that that decision would never have had to be made.?
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