Buzzergate update (Again) Update: Beltran, Cora, Hinch & Luhnow (fired) for illegale sign stealing - compare to NFL & The Patsies

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, UConn James said:

I’m a Red Sox fan and I have to agree. If the reports are accurate that Cora instigated this setup in Houston and introduced whatever in Boston (there’s more investigation ongoing for that), I’d probably push for a 5-year ban. No wiggle room for this stuff. So disappointed in them / any manager or players that knew and used it and did nothing. ?

 

 

With the past history of videotaping, Goodell had better figuratively throw the book at the Pars* organization. If Belichick does not get at least a year suspension, it’s not justice. I don’t give a hoot if they can’t find anything that he ordered it. In the NCAA they call it “lack of institutional control” in punishments where the coach isn’t implicitly involved... but that s/he hadn’t done anything to ensure the kind of act didn’t happen. WRT Belichick et al and ?, there can be absolutely NO reason an employee can do this and BB sidesteps punishment.

I'm a Yankees fan (many of us despise AHole - I mean Arod for his  PEDways), Cora needs to be a lifetime ban , he did this in Houston, commish said no way, he still does it and then brings (even more) cheating to Boston; it was all tied to him as the non-player mastermind - he's out....

 

All sports leagues are on the hook now for the same type of punishment. And I still feel it is a bit light for Houston - the team

[Tierlifer]

All those people on Twitter who were hating on Jomboy must be very salty today.  Dude knew what he was talking about the entire time. 
 

And any word from Verlander? He loves to police the game so much on social media you’d think he would have an opinion? Bet not. 

[Orlando Buffalo]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Say what?

 

NFL started testing in '87 and suspending in'89.

 

MLB put out a memo in '90 saying steroids were "strictly prohibited".   Then the rest of the 90's happened and it was obvious to every viewer the world over for YEARS that juicing was going on.  In '96 17 players hit 40 or more HRs.  MLB's response....another memo!  This one again reminded players and clubs to discourage the use of "illegal" substances.

 

'97 and McGuire hit 70.  He was found to have the steroids at his locker during the season---still nothing.

 

'99 Sosa and McGuire hot over 60.

 

What did MLB do next?  Nothing!  but 2 years later they figured they might have to do....something.  So they started random testing and penalties.....for the minor leagues only!  Same year, '01, Bonds breaks the HR record.

 

Finally, after Ken Caminiti spoke to SI and the story blew the lid off, MLB started the lamest of testing schedules....and no penalty for first time offenders!  The BALCO and 2004 came penalties for first time offenders.

 

 

So, nearly 20 years after the NFL at least started to test.  The MLB had to be pulled kicking and screaming into the acknowledgement that their lead was completely penetrated with PEDS for at least a dozens years.

 

That's some "model" for other leagues.

 

 

The NFL still has one test a year and unless you fail multiple times you do not get suspended. The MLB structure has been more strict for some time. 

[ComradeKayAdams]

42 minutes ago, Roger Goodell said:

In response to the revelation of Alex Cora's involvement in the Houston Astros' scandal in Major League Baseball, the NFL has awarded the New England Patriots a 4th round compensatory selection in the 2020 NFL Draft.

 

You sicken me, sir.

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Cheating and cheaters always needs to be punished severely, it then becomes a deterrent, otherwise you are saying it’s okay to cheat at everything, that attitude is what breaks down entire societies. Those that condone cheating are in turn the same as those that cheat. 

  Most people do not see this and sadly they will not be the ones to reap that bitter crop but some person a generation or two into the future.  

[Orlando Buffalo]

47 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

When we catch more successful teams in the next few seasons, it will make sense 

I am confused by this comment- do you think they are punishing them because they are successful? Leagues protect the champs because it looks bad for a league when your champs are simply good at cheating. 

[JGMcD2]

25 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Say what?

 

NFL started testing in '87 and suspending in'89.

 

MLB put out a memo in '90 saying steroids were "strictly prohibited".   Then the rest of the 90's happened and it was obvious to every viewer the world over for YEARS that juicing was going on.  In '96 17 players hit 40 or more HRs.  MLB's response....another memo!  This one again reminded players and clubs to discourage the use of "illegal" substances.

 

'97 and McGuire hit 70.  He was found to have the steroids at his locker during the season---still nothing.

 

'99 Sosa and McGuire hot over 60.

 

What did MLB do next?  Nothing!  but 2 years later they figured they might have to do....something.  So they started random testing and penalties.....for the minor leagues only!  Same year, '01, Bonds breaks the HR record.

 

Finally, after Ken Caminiti spoke to SI and the story blew the lid off, MLB started the lamest of testing schedules....and no penalty for first time offenders!  The BALCO and 2004 came penalties for first time offenders.

 

 

So, nearly 20 years after the NFL at least started to test.  The MLB had to be pulled kicking and screaming into the acknowledgement that their lead was completely penetrated with PEDS for at least a dozens years.

 

That's some "model" for other leagues.

 

 

That’s an issue that has to be collectively bargained. The players wanted nothing to do with random drug testing. The MLB had suggested drug testing numerous times and the MLBPA which is the strongest in all of sports staunchly opposed it. 
 

There would have been much deeper issues with the players had they just forced drug testing on them, it actually never could have occurred. It’s really not as simple as just doing it...

[CommonCents]

32 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I'm a Yankees fan (many of us despise AHole - I mean Arod for his  PEDways), Cora needs to be a lifetime ban , he did this in Houston, commish said no way, he still does it and then brings (even more) cheating to Boston; it was all tied to him as the non-player mastermind - he's out....

 

All sports leagues are on the hook now for the same type of punishment. And I still feel it is a bit light for Houston - the team

Sox fan, I think he will be fired before the ban is announced. I’d say lifetime as well. I can’t stand that little brat. 

[BADOLBILZ]

20 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I'm a Yankees fan (many of us despise AHole - I mean Arod for his  PEDways), Cora needs to be a lifetime ban , he did this in Houston, commish said no way, he still does it and then brings (even more) cheating to Boston; it was all tied to him as the non-player mastermind - he's out....

 

All sports leagues are on the hook now for the same type of punishment. And I still feel it is a bit light for Houston - the team

 

 

Yeah it needs to be emphasized to those that don't follow baseball closely that the Red Sox had ALREADY been caught and penalized for cheating in 2017..........before Cora even came aboard.........so in fairness the Sox should be punished to at least the same extent.

 

And yes I think the Astros got off too easy..........they should have also been barred from international signings for multiple seasons as well.    Hitting teams with draft pick penalties looks harsh to casual fans..........but when you are drafting in the late 20's the ability to sign international prospects is much more valuable.     The Yanks have been winning for 26 straight years so in most drafts by the time they pick in round 1 they are already drafting utility infielders and relief pitching prospects or starting pitchers with blown out elbows.   About 25 of the Yankees top 30 prospects are international players.  

 

What they basically did is give Crane a chance to own it and not be devastated personnel-wise.     I wouldn't be surprised if he agreed to fire Hinch/Luhnow in order to save that international prospect signing ability.   Now if Crane can hire a good GM/manager he can spend his way out of any significant personnel consequence.     

[LabattBlue]

Good for the Houston owner(acting swiftly to fire them)...bad look for baseball.

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

Red Sox got slapped in 2017 for using Apple watches to relay signals and it was met with a milder penalty, but everyone was put on notice:

"Taking all of these factors as well as past precedent into account, I have decided to fine the Red Sox an undisclosed amount which in turn will be donated by my office to hurricane relief efforts in Florida.  Moreover, all 30 Clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks."

 

If you watched the world series video from the 2017 Astros, you can clearly see the set up and where the set up was located - there is no way this was not known at the highest levels of the organization - it was in their championship video...

 

 

What really looks bad for Hinch is how he actively addressed the talk about his team cheating as nonsense and mocked the Yankees for questioning if they were cheating in the playoffs this year.   

 

And Bregman has made sly remarks about not being surprised by breaking pitches that he crushed that were basically wink-winks to his co-conspirators.

[Mr. WEO]

46 minutes ago, JGMcD2 said:

That’s an issue that has to be collectively bargained. The players wanted nothing to do with random drug testing. The MLB had suggested drug testing numerous times and the MLBPA which is the strongest in all of sports staunchly opposed it. 
 

There would have been much deeper issues with the players had they just forced drug testing on them, it actually never could have occurred. It’s really not as simple as just doing it...

 

It's collectively bargained for in the NFL as well.  But the MLB never pushed for it even though their product was grossly tainted for over a dozen years. 

 

The point is that no one: owners, players, the union, or the Commissioner took any of this seriously as long as the results were a boom in league interest, so any claim that MLB is a "model" for all other sports and that they were the first to "address PED" use is laughably wrong. 

1 hour ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

The NFL still has one test a year and unless you fail multiple times you do not get suspended. The MLB structure has been more strict for some time. 

 

NFL:  first positive is 4 games. Each player is tested once per season minimum.  Then, every week of the season, 10 players per team are randomly tested.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Mr. WEO

[JAMIEBUF12]

3 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

To be fair, the Astros aren't really the MLB cash cow and premier team like the Pats. Now if this was the Yankees accused of this, I'm sure it would have been swept under the rug just like the Pats and the NFL.

 

I'm not surprised they were fired for this, but we're they the ones fully responsible? Did the owner know what was going on and encouraged it or just turn a blind eye to it? Also weren't the Astros just in trouble recently for providing or forging false medical records for players in trades? They also recently fired one of their other front office guys this offseason after comments he made to female reporters in the locker room  who were known to be against the team getting the former Jays closer who was suspended for beating his girlfriend/wife

Not true mlb suspended George steinbrenner owner of the Yankees.It was because Steinbrenner was suspended that the Yanks were able to build their late 90’s dynasty.Gene Michaels made very shrewd trades like the Paul O’neil trade...Johnny Bench is still banned and he was a house hold name...

[PromoTheRobot]

http://www.startribune.com/it-s-time-to-hold-astros-patriots-accountable-for-cheating/566410182/

 

[apuszczalowski]

3 hours ago, cgg716 said:

Everyone steals signs, everyone always has, MLB basically just suspended people for being too good at something they’ve allowed for ages. And equally importantly something they can not and will not stop going forward 

Stealing signs isn't the issue, it's the use of cameras and technology to aid in the stealing and relaying of signs that's the issue. If during the game a player on the team figures out a signal or a tell (like  a pitcher tipping pitches) from the other team, that's not against the rules. Having staff using cameras to steal signs then deciding them and relaying by phone, text or other electronics to the dugout, that's the issue.

 

It's like the latest issue with the Pats. It wasn't an issue because they had someone at the game scouting trying to figure out signals from the other teams bench, it's that they were using cameras to videotape the other team so they could go back and review it later.

[apuszczalowski]

3 hours ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

and you could say Manfred's balls are...well...juiced

I believe they reviewed the balls and have found that they have been changed, but in baseball, it was changed for everyone, where as in the NFL, it was only the Patriots using the deflated balls. If all teams used the same deflated balls it wouldn't have been an issue.

[Don Otreply]

3 hours ago, cgg716 said:

Exactly, when you allow the bigger picture and punish the side effect, I don’t like it 

Punishing the act of cheating is good.

[Reed83HOF]

22 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

I believe they reviewed the balls and have found that they have been changed, but in baseball, it was changed for everyone, where as in the NFL, it was only the Patriots using the deflated balls. If all teams used the same deflated balls it wouldn't have been an issue.

Until the playoffs and then the balls were dead

[JGMcD2]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's collectively bargained for in the NFL as well.  But the MLB never pushed for it even though their product was grossly tainted for over a dozen years. 

 

The point is that no one: owners, players, the union, or the Commissioner took any of this seriously as long as the results were a boom in league interest, so any claim that MLB is a "model" for all other sports and that they were the first to "address PED" use is laughably wrong. 

 

NFL:  first positive is 4 games. Each player is tested once per season minimum.  Then, every week of the season, 10 players per team are randomly tested.

Look you definitely know your history here but you’re wrong on nobody pushing for it. They wanted to implement drug testing after the Pittsburgh Drug Trials in 1985. That’s an absolute fact. Seeing that it’s collectively bargained the players said no, we’re not giving that up, the league can’t just stuff it into the CBA and move on. That would cause a strike. The biggest issue for baseball were  the numerous work stoppages, so maybe folks didn’t push as hard on a tough subject like that because it would’ve led to another work stoppage but the comment that nobody pushed for it is laughably wrong. 

 

I took a class that Bud Selig taught... I’ve heard stories about the inner workings of those negotiations. There was a push for drug testing but players wouldn’t budge on it. You can’t just rip up the CBA my friend... that causes issues. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by JGMcD2

[KD in CA]

3 hours ago, JGMcD2 said:

That’s an issue that has to be collectively bargained. The players wanted nothing to do with random drug testing. The MLB had suggested drug testing numerous times and the MLBPA which is the strongest in all of sports staunchly opposed it. 
 

There would have been much deeper issues with the players had they just forced drug testing on them, it actually never could have occurred. It’s really not as simple as just doing it...

 

The difference is the union rules baseball.  Thankfully, that's not the case in the NFL.