The Intentional Grounding Penalty that Wasn't

[Not at the table Karlos]

36 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

There's no world where the refs don't blow the play dead if he actually completes that pass. But even more important to the reason why the rule is put in place, it's to protect a QB from injury. Two men have him wrapped up and pushed back 8 feet. A third player launches himself at him and knocks him back another 4 feet. Allen is falling and vertical to the ground with 3 men wrapping him up before he even gets a pass off, after being driven backwards 4 yards by three men. 

 

The point of in the grasp is for the refs to blow the whistle to protect a QB from being injured after he's clearly wrapped up and his forward progress is stopped. 

 

 

 

Watson was in the grasp and his forward progress stopped a few games ago and he broke free but the refs whistled the play dead and got a lot of stuff for it. Since then they’ve been letting plays go with mobile qbs. Allen is a big mobile qb that breaks tackles. The refs were 100% right to let the play continue.

[dbfla10]

5 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

That was during the loudest part of the game, i wouldn't be surprised if they had miscommunication as to blocking.

 

And even if what you say is correct, it is hard for me not to fault Dawkins, he has to be more aware of what is going on around him.  Watt isnt even close to him, for Dawkins not to sense or be aware of the huge gap and the defender blowing by him, even it wasnt his assignment, still is troubling to say the least.

I get what your saying, But he's expecting help there. He may see the LB but hes not aware that Lee is nt there... When it comes to pass protection Oline must follow their rules. One guy messes up the result is what you see. If all 6 did their job Singletary is able to block the DB and allen can get the pass off. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by dbfla10

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 minute ago, dbfla10 said:

I get what your saying, But he's expecting help there. He may see the LB but hes not aware that Lee is there... When it comes to pass protection Oline must follow their rules. One guy messes up the result is what you see. If all 6 did their job Singletary is able to block the DB and allen can get the pass off. 

 

Yeah I understand, do your job, the Patriot way.  Works out fine if the other guys all do their job and when they dont, you have a car wreck like this play.  

 

This is so bad it is almost comical 7 guys cant block three, cant really block any of the three.

[row_33]

29 minutes ago, Utah John said:

The rules apparently AREN'T the rules.  The second half kickoff was, by rule, fumbled in the end zone and recovered for a TD.  The correct call was made on the field, and it was overturned for no real reason at all.

 

you are aware that like nobody outside Bills and Texans fans saw this happen or have a clue what you are talking about

 

[suorangefan4]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

 

How can you blame Singletary and not Dawkins? This is what our LT was doing on the play when the LB blitzed his gap:

 

 

 

The offensive line deserves blame but Singletary does as well. He was really bad on a lot of pass blocking assignments.

 

I pointed out on Saturday how his missed block on Mercilus was a big reason why Josh Allen fumbled. The offensive line did bad on that play too but Singletary had a chance to help out and he completely ole'd on Mercilus. Singletary gave a really poor effort on a lot of blocking attempts.

[dbfla10]

1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

Yeah I understand, do your job, the Patriot way.  Works out fine if the other guys all do their job and when they dont, you have a car wreck like this play.  

 

This is so bad it is almost comical 7 guys cant block three, cant really block any of the three.

The domino effect of 1 guy not doing is job. Hence why with a 3 man rush the Texans run a stunt, enough to blow the whole play up based on the blocking scheme. 

1 minute ago, suorangefan4 said:

 

The offensive line deserves blame but Singletary does as well. He was really bad on a lot of pass blocking assignments.

 

I pointed out on Saturday how his missed block on Mercilus was a big reason why Josh Allen fumbled. The offensive line did bad on that play too but Singletary had a chance to help out and he completely ole'd on Mercilus. Singletary gave a really poor effort on a lot of blocking attempts.

read my post above its neithers fault 100% of the blame is on Lee

[Motorin']

33 minutes ago, Utah John said:

The rules apparently AREN'T the rules.  The second half kickoff was, by rule, fumbled in the end zone and recovered for a TD.  The correct call was made on the field, and it was overturned for no real reason at all.

 

Well, it wasn't a fumble. He intentionally threw the ball forward, which is by rule an illegal forward pass. There's never a play in the NFL where someone can recover a forward pass that hits the ground. By the letter of the rules, it should have been a safety. 

[BarleyNY]

16 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Watson was in the grasp and his forward progress stopped a few games ago and he broke free but the refs whistled the play dead and got a lot of stuff for it. Since then they’ve been letting plays go with mobile qbs. Allen is a big mobile qb that breaks tackles. The refs were 100% right to let the play continue.

Honestly I think the refs did a good job overall and specifically by letting that play continue.  They were letting a lot of stuff go all game.  I’m not sure why one found his whistle on the Ford block, but that was the only big exception to how the game was being officiated.

[jrober38]

The pass protection was clearly called incorrectly. 

 

Every linemen is looking to their right. 

 

There's no way this is by chance. They think the rush is coming from the right, and the complete opposite happens.

 

I don't know who sets the protections (it's either Allen or Morse), but one of them completely screwed it up. 

[Buffalo Junction]

1 hour ago, Motorin' said:

16 feet. That's how far he was driven back while in the grasp of 3 defenders. 

 

And sure, he needs to make better decisions, which might be easier if his LT actually attempted to block the edge rusher on all plays. 

Allen is responsible for setting up the protections at the line. In this case it seems that he misread the pressure and Morse couldn’t or didn’t adjust to the error. That’s why all the linemen are looking to their right and moving to their right. @Shaw66 is correct about protecting inside to outside, but there’s a caveat.... That generalization is null with certain protection calls. They slide the pocket and when that occurs the RB and TE are generally responsible for rushers on the opposite side. Dawkins could have made that block, but if he did and there was delayed pressure in the middle that protection fails. Singletary didn’t make the block, he failed to do his 1/11 on that play. However, Allen and Morse also screwed the pooch with the protection call which set Singletary up for failure.
 

We saw this against the Pats and Ravens too. BB’s 0 blitz scheme is set up to cause this exact issue. Particularly with all the players that draw a block immediately dropping back into coverage. Young QBs are going to get schooled sometimes with protections and coverages. This was a good play call by the Texans and horrible execution by the Bills. They will learn from it. Particularly Allen and Singletary. 

[dbfla10]

4 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

The pass protection was clearly called incorrectly. 

 

Every linemen is looking to their right. 

 

There's no way this is by chance. They think the rush is coming from the right, and the complete opposite happe

Again read my post above. Pass protection is fine. If all 6 do their job their is no issue. 

[jrober38]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo Junction said:

Allen is responsible for setting up the protections at the line. In this case it seems that he misread the pressure and Morse couldn’t or didn’t adjust to the error. That’s why all the linemen are looking to their right and moving to their right. @Shaw66 is correct about protecting inside to outside, but there’s a caveat.... That generalization is null with certain protection calls. They slide the pocket and when that occurs the RB and TE are generally responsible for rushers on the opposite side. Dawkins could have made that block, but if he did and there was delayed pressure in the middle that protection fails. Singletary didn’t make the block, he failed to do his 1/11 on that play. However, Allen and Morse also screwed the pooch with the protection call which set Singletary up for failure.
 

We saw this against the Pats and Ravens too. BB’s 0 blitz scheme is set up to cause this exact issue. Particularly with all the players that draw a block immediately dropping back into coverage. Young QBs are going to get schooled sometimes with protections and coverages. This was a good play call by the Texans and horrible execution by the Bills. They will learn from it. Particularly Allen and Singletary. 

 

This is a very good post.

 

My issue is that this was a problem for the Bills literally all season.

 

There must have been at least 6 times this year that the Bills were somewhere around the 30-35 yard line opposition territory, only to get completely caught off guard by a blitz that resulted in a massive sack or intentional grounding call. In pretty much all of those situations we walked away with no points. 

 

Whoever sets the protections struggled with this constantly throughout the season. 

1 minute ago, dbfla10 said:

Again read my post above. Pass protection is fine. If all 6 do their job their is no issue. 

 

Dawkins clearly isn't responsible for Mercilus. 

 

He never even looks at hims which seems completely insane is that's the guy he's supposed to be blocking.

 

The pass protection is a disastrous call. 3 guys are blocking Watt, Dawkins is blocking no one, and Singletary is responsible for picking up a very good NFL edge rusher who comes untouched. 

 

It's a train wreck. The play is blown up by the protection call before the ball is even snapped. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

2 hours ago, KD in CA said:

I didn’t realize previous just how badly Singletary missed the block on that play.

lee Smith was worse he couldn’t pick which of the two to block, so blocked none. 

2 hours ago, Motorin' said:

This play has stuck in my head as one of another BS calls. To be fair, the worst part of the play is the atrocious play of Dawkins completely missing, like not even seeing the LB blitzing right past his left shoulder. How is Singletary the one to get called out for his blocking on this when Lee Smith and Dawkins let both of their men run right past them? Like, wtf is Dawkins doing? 

 

 

 

In any event, when the two edge rushers wrap Josh up, the ball is at the 39 yard line. He's clearing in the grasp and his forward progress is stop. The NFL rule book states "The Referee must blow the play dead as soon as the passer is clearly in the grasp and control of any tackler behind the line, and the passer's safety is in jeopardy.”

 

But Josh gets pushed back 4 yards in the grasp of 3 players, is falling to the ground vertically before the ball comes out. There's no world in which the interpretation of the NFL rules allows there defenders to grasp a QB, drive him backwards 12 feet, and that still be a live ball.

 

Josh in the grasp of 2 defenders at the 39 & 1/2:

 

Josh in the grasp of 3 defenders at the 43:

 

 

 

the positive here on this play is 4 guys blocked Watt. They really took him out of the play 

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, jrober38 said:

 

This is a very good post.

 

My issue is that this was a problem for the Bills literally all season.

 

There must have been at least 6 times this year that the Bills were somewhere around the 30-35 yard line opposition territory, only to get completely caught off guard by a blitz that resulted in a massive sack or intentional grounding call. In pretty much all of those situations we walked away with no points. 

 

Whoever sets the protections struggled with this constantly throughout the season. 

Yes, I think worse than settling for field goals this year was getting knocked out of fg range on big sacks for loss. We easily lost 3 pts per game, and the difference between 17 and 20 is huge with this defense. 

[Scott7975]

First...  The blocking was completely pathetic this play.

Second... I agree the play should have been blown dead. They probably give a little latitude for running QBs like Josh that have broken free on that but this obviously wasn't going to be one of those times so it should have blown dead.

Third... I can believe no one has commented on the fact Josh got hit in the helmet twice on this play.  The first one being a spear.

[dbfla10]

5 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

This is a very good post.

 

My issue is that this was a problem for the Bills literally all season.

 

There must have been at least 6 times this year that the Bills were somewhere around the 30-35 yard line opposition territory, only to get completely caught off guard by a blitz that resulted in a massive sack or intentional grounding call. In pretty much all of those situations we walked away with no points. 

 

Whoever sets the protections struggled with this constantly throughout the season. 

 

Dawkins clearly isn't responsible for Mercilus. 

 

He never even looks at hims which seems completely insane is that's the guy he's supposed to be blocking.

 

The pass protection is a disastrous call. 3 guys are blocking Watt, Dawkins is blocking no one, and Singletary is responsible for picking up a very good NFL edge rusher who comes untouched. 

 

It's a train wreck. The play is blown up by the protection call before the ball is even snapped. 

no you're wrong. Lee is responsible for mercilus, and singltary #33. All 6 lineman are to step down to there right (slide) protection. Lee would get enough of Mercilus and singletary enough of 33 for allen to get a pass off. Singletary tried to block Mercilus because Lee went and got 33 and didn't step down. 

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, ScotSHO said:

1) They are telegraphing the silent snap cadence.  Not sure why the G has to tell the C to snap it with a tap on the leg.

2) The Texans (and probably the Pats) had a fairly elaborate stunt on.  Run a draw play there...

 

Because the line cant hear through the crowd noise.  All teams do this in loud stadiums.

[RoyBatty is alive]

5 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Yes, I think worse than settling for field goals this year was getting knocked out of fg range on big sacks for loss. We easily lost 3 pts per game, and the difference between 17 and 20 is huge with this defense. 

 

With Josh's style of play, when he gets sacked he can easily lose 15 yards plus.

[Motorin']

1 minute ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

With Josh's style of play, when he gets sacked he can easily lose 15 yards plus.

Recognizing when he absolutely can not take a sack has to be a top priority of his this off season. 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Motorin'

[ILBillsfan]

2 hours ago, row_33 said:

 

loss of 36 yards on two downs? 

exactly the rush was on him before he could even do anything was maddening