C.Biscuit97 Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 1 minute ago, JaCrispy said: It seemed to work with black QBs in the league...they are more prominent than ever before, and there was no affirmative action rule or legislation that made it that way...people just recognized that those QBs are just as successful or more than whites... And how long did it take for that to happen?
whatdrought Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Well, I’m fine with teams being required to interview minority candidates...but it seems like Steven A Smith and ESPN are not happy about that, and want more to be done... My issue with that view is that now you’re getting into the arena of trying to decipher intent of the people doing the interviewing and hiring- which is a slippery slope that people shouldn’t want to go down... Yep. Even NFL media guys like Steve Wyche who tweets something like this: This along with a lot of other things he's tweeted, retweeted, and liked, make it seem pretty clear that he believes the Giants passed on Bienemy because of his race which is, I think, offensive to the Giants, and to Judge. It's also slanderous without proof. Edit: Or this little gem, where he conveniently buries the lead about Judge being in charge of a record setting ST unit the past five years: This bothers me. Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought
JaCrispy Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I think this is a great point. Andy Reid’s former crackhead son is coaching in the nfl. Todd Haley was a college golfer whose dad worked with the Steelers. Belichick’s weirdo son. meanwhile, you guys grinding at lower levels who can’t get a sniff at a nfl job yet the same failures get passed around. I mean when your sport is something like 70% black and you have like 3% head coaches in the nfl and college, it’s not a good look. But I don’t know the answer. Maybe stop giving scrub coaches like Pat Shurmur multiple chances and trying someone new. With all due respect, I flat out disagree with this view with every fiber of my being....I disagree that there should be equal representation across all aspects of society based on population of race rather than competence of the individual....An owner should be FREE to choose the best course for HIS business...and while no way is perfect, allowing for more freedom (not less) is always the best way to ensure success...has nothing to do with the “way it looks”. Edited January 8, 2020 by JaCrispy
whatdrought Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: And how long did it take for that to happen? Randell Cunningham, Warren Moon, Doug Williams, Steve McNair come to mind. There isn't now, nor has there been historically, a huge number of African American QB's in the NFL, but is there a huge class of A.A. men that have the ability to play QB and wanted to that weren't allowed to? That goes back to using specifics instead of generalities and it's the same conversation as the "why aren't there white Cornerbacks?" rabbit hole.
JaCrispy Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: And how long did it take for that to happen? Well that’s only because most minorities didn’t play the position back in the day... But once they started playing at younger and younger ages, started playing the position in college, and now it’s prominent in the NFL...the free market worked. ? The talent couldn’t be denied and teams wanted to win! Edited January 8, 2020 by JaCrispy
SDS Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 49 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I am absolutely with the guys who say NFL Head Coaching interviews should be earned and based on merit rather than on the colour of a person's skin or a person's ethnic background. Absolutely they should be. And the current Rooney rule is acting against that. Perry Fewell gets an interview and the three guys mentioned above (just as examples) don't. That is not a system encouraging merit based opportunity. I don't think this is correct. NFL teams should be embracing the spirit of the Rooney Rule, not looking for ways to check a box. The rule isn't broken per se, the people in charge of implementing it just don't care. There should be active outreach measures looking to uncover great minority talent based on the fact that it is the right thing to do and not some pesky rule the league imposed upon the rich white dudes. 12 minutes ago, whatdrought said: This bothers me. I can imagine your hardship.
whatdrought Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, SDS said: I can imagine your hardship. Glad you can emphasize with me for not liking false dichotomy's and unproven accusations of racism. ?
JaCrispy Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, SDS said: I don't think this is correct. NFL teams should be embracing the spirit of the Rooney Rule, not looking for ways to check a box. The rule isn't broken per se, the people in charge of implementing it just don't care. There should be active outreach measures looking to uncover great minority talent based on the fact that it is the right thing to do and not some pesky rule the league imposed upon the rich white dudes. On top of this, if I’m an owner looking for a HC, I want no stone left unturned- I’m looking for the best coaches regardless...
GunnerBill Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, SDS said: I don't think this is correct. NFL teams should be embracing the spirit of the Rooney Rule, not looking for ways to check a box. The rule isn't broken per se, the people in charge of implementing it just don't care. There should be active outreach measures looking to uncover great minority talent based on the fact that it is the right thing to do and not some pesky rule the league imposed upon the rich white dudes. I can imagine your hardship. I think we broadly agree SDS. But if they are just flouting the rule we have to try something, surely?
GunnerBill Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 25 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Well, I’m fine with teams being required to interview minority candidates...but it seems like Steven A Smith and ESPN are not happy about that, and want more to be done... My issue with that view is that now you’re getting into the arena of trying to decipher intent of the people doing the interviewing and hiring- which is a slippery slope that people shouldn’t want to go down... I am not sure it takes much deciphering. When you just grab the nearest minority coach on your staff and interview him first then crack on I think your intent is pretty clear. That is why in my first post in this thread I distinguish between the Fewell type situation and someone like Marvin Lewis interviewing in Dallas who some have said "oh he was just a tick box" but to me that is hard to prove and to be honest I doubt it..
GoBills808 Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, SDS said: I don't think this is correct. NFL teams should be embracing the spirit of the Rooney Rule, not looking for ways to check a box. The rule isn't broken per se, the people in charge of implementing it just don't care. There should be active outreach measures looking to uncover great minority talent based on the fact that it is the right thing to do and not some pesky rule the league imposed upon the rich white dudes. That people assume NFL teams are simply going through the motions when considering minority candidates speaks volumes in itself.
SDS Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: That people assume NFL teams are simply going through the motions when considering minority candidates speaks volumes in itself. I was about ready to post something similar. Every year we have this discussion and there is always a large, large faction who treats this as a BS exercise. 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 27 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Well that’s only because most minorities didn’t play the position back in the day... But once they started playing at younger and younger ages, started playing the position in college, and now it’s prominent in the NFL...the free market worked. ? The talent couldn’t be denied and teams wanted to win! But that goes to the larger point. Blacks weren’t trusted to be qbs back in the day. Teams were nervous to have them as the face of the franchise. Again, while I think it’s more of the buddy network of knowing the right people, could that be the same with head coaches? and I’m just nit picking for the sake of discussion. Actually kinda proud of these board for having a very civil conversation haha.
GunnerBill Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 15 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: That people assume NFL teams are simply going through the motions when considering minority candidates speaks volumes in itself. I only think that when they literally just grab an internal position coach and interview them right at the start and then crack on with the search.
whatdrought Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: and I’m just nit picking for the sake of discussion. Actually kinda proud of these board for having a very civil conversation haha. Same! I had a long thread about this typed out yesterday before this one and then deleted it cause I couldn't imagine it going well, but this has really been quite nice all things considered! 3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I only think that when they literally just grab an internal position coach and interview them right at the start and then crack on with the search. Part of that could be a strategic move as well though... If you know you have to interview a minority before you hire someone, you dont want to get into a situation where you find the perfect guy who isn't a minority, but have to wait to sign him till you interview a minority and then he has 2 or 3 other teams calling his name. Obviously that's a lot of business thinking and not thinking about the people, but it seems very believable that the rule could facilitate that. Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought 1
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 35 minutes ago, whatdrought said: Randell Cunningham, Warren Moon, Doug Williams, Steve McNair come to mind. There isn't now, nor has there been historically, a huge number of African American QB's in the NFL, but is there a huge class of A.A. men that have the ability to play QB and wanted to that weren't allowed to? That goes back to using specifics instead of generalities and it's the same conversation as the "why aren't there white Cornerbacks?" rabbit hole. I think this is the worst point of all the points you have made in this thread (you’ve made a bunch of good ones). The thought was that AA weren’t smart enough to be qbs and should play other positions. That’s why people took the Polian Lamar received stuff a certain way (I think it was more of Polian being a stubborn old dude than a racist). cornerbacks are a position mainly based on pure athleticism. If you are an elite athlete, That’s what matters most. There are a lot more factors that go into a exalting a qb than cb. Looking back, it’s absolutely insane that a one year “wonder” like Mitchell T went ahead of an all time great player in Watson and a freak talent like Mahomes. 43 minutes ago, whatdrought said: Yep. Even NFL media guys like Steve Wyche who tweets something like this: This along with a lot of other things he's tweeted, retweeted, and liked, make it seem pretty clear that he believes the Giants passed on Bienemy because of his race which is, I think, offensive to the Giants, and to Judge. It's also slanderous without proof. Edit: Or this little gem, where he conveniently buries the lead about Judge being in charge of a record setting ST unit the past five years: This bothers me. There isn’t any truth in this? Why did Matt Nagy who wasn’t the Chiefs playcaller either get a job yet EB who oversaw a record breaking one not get one? i do understand that it is annoying how it can be that race works it’s way into the conversation but there are some bad optics.
GunnerBill Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, whatdrought said: Same! I had a long thread about this typed out yesterday before this one and then deleted it cause I couldn't imagine it going well, but this has really been quite nice all things considered! Part of that could be a strategic move as well though... If you know you have to interview a minority before you hire someone, you dont want to get into a situation where you find the perfect guy who isn't a minority, but have to wait to sign him till you interview a minority and then he has 2 or 3 other teams calling his name. Obviously that's a lot of business thinking and not thinking about the people, but it seems very believable that the rule could facilitate that. I also agree it has been a good discussion. I will also say that point you make in your second para is a good one but I still think we have to try and make sure the qualified minority coaches are getting the opportunities to interview. Nobody thinks Perry Fewell is an NFL Head Coach in waiting. 1
whatdrought Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 2 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: I think this is the worst point of all the points you have made in this thread (you’ve made a bunch of good ones). The thought was that AA weren’t smart enough to be qbs and should play other positions. That’s why people took the Polian Lamar received stuff a certain way (I think it was more of Polian being a stubborn old dude than a racist). cornerbacks are a position mainly based on pure athleticism. If you are an elite athlete, That’s what matters most. There are a lot more factors that go into a exalting a qb than cb. Looking back, it’s absolutely insane that a one year “wonder” like Mitchell T went ahead of an all time great player in Watson and a freak talent like Mahomes. It's possible that that perception was there and going back far enough definitely finds racist history deeply entrenched in the NFL, and obviously I don't agree with it. I just like to be careful with sweeping statements about how things "used to be" or "it's just how they are" (not accusing you, just in general) instead of looking at specific situations and what factors went into them. Hindsight always help the evaluation process. I didn't follow the draft that closely then, but I know the idea of Mitch being the cream of the QB crop wasn't a small population saying that, and I don't think that has to do with racist intent or undercurrent.
C.Biscuit97 Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 1 minute ago, whatdrought said: It's possible that that perception was there and going back far enough definitely finds racist history deeply entrenched in the NFL, and obviously I don't agree with it. I just like to be careful with sweeping statements about how things "used to be" or "it's just how they are" (not accusing you, just in general) instead of looking at specific situations and what factors went into them. Hindsight always help the evaluation process. I didn't follow the draft that closely then, but I know the idea of Mitch being the cream of the QB crop wasn't a small population saying that, and I don't think that has to do with racist intent or undercurrent. Fair but looking back, it’s absolutely insane. What did MT do better than Watson? He started one year in college. What could you point to saying he was definitely a better prospect? And for the record, I was all about Watson and Mahomes. Never got the MT love. I should be the Bears GM.
whatdrought Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 26 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said: Fair but looking back, it’s absolutely insane. What did MT do better than Watson? He started one year in college. What could you point to saying he was definitely a better prospect? And for the record, I was all about Watson and Mahomes. Never got the MT love. I should be the Bears GM. I have no clue. Like I said, I didn't know jack about that draft. It is hard for me to imagine what happened that could have led to such a miscalculation... It does seem obvious, a one year starter at a sub-standard school... Big question marks, but alas it happens all the freaking time. Just for fun (and off topic) here's some stuff I found on google: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000791512/article/lance-zierlein-big-board-top-32-players-for-2017-nfl-draft https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2704997-2017-nfl-draft-big-board-matt-millers-top-overall-player-rankings#slide2 This actually makes sense, all things considered: (with the exception of Trubisky as best prospect) Best Prospect: Mitchell Trubisky, North Carolina Most NFL-Ready: Deshaun Watson, Clemson Best Arm: Patrick Mahomes, Texas Tech Best Runner: Watson Most Potential: Mahomes Biggest Bust Potential: DeShone Kizer, Notre Dame Biggest Sleeper: Brad Kaaya, Miami (Fla.) Highest Risk: Mahomes Lowest Risk: Watson http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000802568/article/mike-mayocks-2017-nfl-draft-top-100-prospect-rankings (Mayock here has Watson above Trubisky, but doesn't have Mahomes on his top 100) Crazy stuff man. 30 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I also agree it has been a good discussion. I will also say that point you make in your second para is a good one but I still think we have to try and make sure the qualified minority coaches are getting the opportunities to interview. Nobody thinks Perry Fewell is an NFL Head Coach in waiting. I think all candidates should have equal opportunities. Whatever needs to happen for that to work, I'm pro. With how many times he's been an interim head coach, he's an all-pro head coach in waiting... Just never gonna get hired for a HC job... Always a bridesmaid... Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought
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