The Rooney Rule (still) isn’t working?

[whatdrought]

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

Good post and I don’t realize have any real issues without you posted.  It’s a really tricky issue all the way around.  The NFL is awful with its buddy-buddy system.  If you don’t know the right people, you aren’t getting a shot to coach in the league.  It’s a league filled with the sons of previous coaches or guys with the right friends.

 

but I’m not going to pretend I know the solution.  But I still think be given a chance for the interview does matter. As with Tomlin, sometimes you can blow away them in an interview.  But guys just aren’t being given chances. 

 

It's true. Unfortunately most of the world works that way. Whatever our bias' are, we hold onto what's familiar and we don't diversify - not racially, intellectually, culturally, etc. The problem, and maybe my beef with the heart behind the RR, is that very rarely can any form of diversity or innovation be legislated. It has to come from those willing to think outside the box. That has been a nice development with some of the offensive schemes we've seen getting time and attention- there seems to be a willingness to begin the process of innovation, it just needs to continue to grow. 

[formerlyofCtown]

18 hours ago, wppete said:

This is not a political question, this is strictly a Football and NFL question. So please no divisive politics.  We should be able to discuss here.

 

Was watching ESPN and the topic of the "Rooney Rule" came up. Steven A. Smith had some very strong words here in this video. Can someone please explain this rule to me??? Ima a little confused here. From what I understand is that any Head Coaching position that is available/open there has to be at least one minority Interviewed and considered for this position. Seems like this rule was met and adhered to in the signing this week. What exactly is the argument here? Do they now want to Force Owners and Management to Hire Minority Coaches? In essence tell owners who they should hire, pay and lead their team/business? I have never heard anything of this sort in Business 

 

 

 

 

Article from Mike Florio of NBCalso here:

 

The Rooney Rule (still) isn’t working

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/07/the-rooney-rule-still-isnt-working/

 

I think it's an outdated rule.  I think NFL teams already have a list in mind and the best man will get the job.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

Just now, whatdrought said:

 

My bad, didn't mean to ignore that. 

 

It's a good point and really reveals the issue with the situation. In order to look at, say the Giants, hiring a white coach over a black coach and cry foul, you have to simultaneously accuse the owner/decision maker of racism (be it intentional or unintentional) while also saying that the white coach is less qualified than the black coach. Those are just rabbit holes that are really sketchy to go down, in my opinion. 

 

No problem, I only have 1 good point every few months so when I do I have to be heard.

[row_33]

49 minutes ago, jethro_tull said:

The rule is being followed but IMHO is disrespectful and patronizing to the coaches being interviewed to fulfill the rule.  The results are not what was expected however.  

 

 

there's only a few dozen positions on the planet, so it's a buyer's market

 

a feel-good virtue signalling effort can be okay, not sure it has led to a hiring that wasn't intended before interviews began, but hey...

 

 

[billsfan89]

14 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

So, I'm guessing this will be a bit controversial, but here goes. 

 

The US population is, roughly, 60% white, 10 % Latino, 10% black, 10% Asian, 10 % other. 

 

But NFL cornerbacks are 0 % white, almost 100% black. 

 

Should there be a Rooney rule for white cornerbacks?  Where each team has to play at least one white CB in the preseason, give him a chance?

 

or should the best players play, regardless of race or ethnic background?

 

And should that same philosophy be applied to coaches. The best coaches coach, regardless of race etc?

 

NFL coaching and NFL players aren't comparable professions. The Rooney Rule doesn't force quotas or impose any undue burden on teams to simply do due diligence in interviewing one minority candidate for a head coaching opening. It doesn't seem even remotely comparable a situation. 

[BuffaloBill963]

18 hours ago, wppete said:

This is not a political question, this is strictly a Football and NFL question. So please no divisive politics.  We should be able to discuss here.

 

Was watching ESPN and the topic of the "Rooney Rule" came up. Steven A. Smith had some very strong words here in this video. Can someone please explain this rule to me??? Ima a little confused here. From what I understand is that any Head Coaching position that is available/open there has to be at least one minority Interviewed and considered for this position. Seems like this rule was met and adhered to in the signing this week. What exactly is the argument here? Do they now want to Force Owners and Management to Hire Minority Coaches? In essence tell owners who they should hire, pay and lead their team/business? I have never heard anything of this sort in Business 

 

 

 

 

Article from Mike Florio of NBCalso here:

 

The Rooney Rule (still) isn’t working

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2020/01/07/the-rooney-rule-still-isnt-working/

 

The Rooney rule is dumb and unnecessary 

12 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

NFL coaching and NFL players aren't comparable professions. The Rooney Rule doesn't force quotas or impose any undue burden on teams to simply do due diligence in interviewing one minority candidate for a head coaching opening. It doesn't seem even remotely comparable a situation. 

It’s unnecessary and embarrassing tbh

[billsfan89]

9 minutes ago, BuffaloBill963 said:

The Rooney rule is dumb and unnecessary 

It’s unnecessary and embarrassing tbh

 

Why? Are there black/minority coaches with mediocre records getting so many jobs because of the Rooney Rule? Please elaborate. 

[Prickly Pete]

1 hour ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The Steelers were only considering internal candidates before they interviewed Rivera and Tomlin to satisfy the Rooney Rule. The point was that because NFL teams have to satisfy the Rooney Rule they have to do their due diligence on minority coaches and that puts a lot of minority candidates on the radar and opens up some opportunities both short and long term. So I think this notion you have that had the Rooney rule not existed Tomlin would have gotten the job anyway just doesn't vibe with reality that had the Steelers not had to bring in outside canidates for the Rooney Rule they wouldn't have. 

 

Maybe, but that is also the perfect story to enhance the Rooney Rule.

 

How do you KNOW what really happened?

[billsfan89]

Just now, 32ABBA said:

 

Maybe, but that is also the perfect story to enhance the Rooney Rule.

 

How do you KNOW what really happened?

 

The reports at the time stated such. But even if you want to doubt the reports as crafting a narrative after the fact. It falls in line with how the Steelers up until 2007 had always handled their dealings by promoting from within to fill vacancies and the fact that Russ Grimm and Ken Whisenhunt left the Steelers after Tomlin got the job further backs up that they were the intended internal targets. I think given the reporting and the circumstances it is a fair assumption to make. 

[MR8]

The problem is the number of minorities who get the opportunity to be coaches at all levels that then filter upward to become NFL HCs and front office personnel.  Look at the demographics of how many players are minorities versus the number of coaches.  The problem isn't just that the NFL isn't hiring minority HCs, it that the system from high school on up for some reason is white dominated as coaches and front office personnel.  

 

There is a problem, but I am not going to go out on a limb and say 100% it's that NFL owners aren't hiring minorities as HCs.  I think the bigger issue is that there are so few minorities in all coaching and front office positions, especially when compared to how many are playing the game. 

 

I don' t have an answer on solving it, but the problem is deeper than just fewer HCs are minorities... IMHO that's more a symptom of a greater problem.  Though I will say there are ABSOLUTELY minority coaches who deserve a shot as HCs and haven't gotten it.  But we know their resumes, we don't know how they were in interviews etc... there could be viable reasons why they weren't hired to be HCs.  But the pool of minority candidates is SOOOO much smaller, and that's a problem. 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

 

This seems like a really interesting idea, but I can't see it working or helping the problem at all... The reason being, we can't trust the NFL to do anything right. And now we want to create a control on the hiring process (whether or not they hire someone from the list). This further creates the issue, imagine that list is disseminated and on it is 4 minority candidates and 12 white candidates. Of the 5 vacancies that off-season, 3 white coaches are hired off the list, 1 white coach is hired from the college rank, and 1 white coach is promoted from within in his own org. Where any of the 5 vacancies filled because of race? Ask the owners- they each hired the man they considered the best fit for their plans for the organization. Ask the media- the owners are racist. We're back at square one. The problem becomes this: Without proving causation, we cannot assume correlation. Without some specific example of a minority coach being passed over for a white coach who is clearly inferior, and the cause being clearly racism, the dog don't hunt. Statistics and averages are well and good until you get to the nitty gritty. This isn't the group of owners legislating that no more than 10% of coaches be minorities. These are individual actors and organizations seeking (presumably) what is best for the future of their team- without a preponderance of evidence that there is nefarious intent, we're spinning our wheels, it would seem. 

 

But I am not trying to solve the problem of media perception or trying to up the % of minority hires. That isn't what the Rooney rule tries to do either. The concern when the Rooney was created was there were really capable minority coaches who weren't even getting into the room with decision makers. For a few years the rule worked and that changed. But over the last 4 or 5 years we have actually seen a regression. More and more teams are jumping straight out and interviewing any minority coach who is currently on staff on day 1 or 2 of the coaching search, ticking the box and moving on. I am sure in all those cases that guy they are interviewing is not the right guy to lead their franchise. Meanwhile the likes of Richard and Bieneimy and Saleh are not getting interviews. 

 

I am absolutely with the guys who say NFL Head Coaching interviews should be earned and based on merit rather than on the colour of a person's skin or a person's ethnic background. Absolutely they should be. And the current Rooney rule is acting against that. Perry Fewell gets an interview and the three guys mentioned above (just as examples) don't. That is not a system encouraging merit based opportunity.

 

And as I have said elsewhere.... I am not a "let the market fix itself" guy in pretty much any area of life. I am an interventionist. The rule is presently broken. I want to fix it. I am not wedded to my solution but I want to fix a broken system. If we can't do that then regrettably my second alternative is  to scrap the rule completely. But I do think the original intent behind the rule was noble so my preference is to try and make it work better first of all. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, JaCrispy said:

I figured...I’m the other way where I feel life isn’t perfect- and will never be...and typically if we artificially try to change an outcome, we usually create the same problem we are trying to fix...The issue in this thread is very similar to affirmative action- where people who claim they want equality are actually discriminating against another race of people to achieve it...Discrimination is bad, no doubt, but two wrongs don’t make a right in my book ?

 

Like I said before, people should be allowed to hire whoever they want...if that means discriminating against the better candidate, so be it...their team will then suffer the consequences...for every action there is a reaction- that’s how the universe works...

 

But you are still talking about hiring. I am not talking about hiring. I am talking about interviewing specifically. 

[CommonCents]

18 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

That's where I think this really get's disasterous... 

 

Right now there are people who are saying Joe Judge got hired in NY over Eric Bieniemy because of his race. Without substantial evidence and proof of this, how is that not just complete BS? How can you make that accusation without any real factual proof? It's garbage. 

 

 

Another good point, and something I've always wondered... How does a minority candidate not wonder if they're simply the box checker when they get the call for an interview (especially in cases where it's obvious the team has their guy in mind). Seems like the thought would have to exist?... I dunno man. 

Eric Bienemey, has a RB ever become a decent head coach? Or a HC at all?

[whatdrought]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But I am not trying to solve the problem of media perception or trying to up the % of minority hires. That isn't what the Rooney rule tries to do either. The concern when the Rooney was created was there were really capable minority coaches who weren't even getting into the room with decision makers. For a few years the rule worked and that changed. But over the last 4 or 5 years we have actually seen a regression. More and more teams are jumping straight out and interviewing any minority coach who is currently on staff on day 1 or 2 of the coaching search, ticking the box and moving on. I am sure in all those cases that guy they are interviewing is not the right guy to lead their franchise. Meanwhile the likes of Richard and Bieneimy and Saleh are not getting interviews. 

 

I am absolutely with the guys who say NFL Head Coaching interviews should be earned and based on merit rather than on the colour of a person's skin or a person's ethnic background. Absolutely they should be. And the current Rooney rule is acting against that. Perry Fewell gets an interview and the three guys mentioned above (just as examples) don't. That is not a system encouraging merit based opportunity.

 

And as I have said elsewhere.... I am not a "let the market fix itself" guy in pretty much any area of life. I am an interventionist. The rule is presently broken. I want to fix it. I am not wedded to my solution but I want to fix a broken system. If we can't do that then regrettably my second alternative is  to scrap the rule completely. But I do think the original intent behind the rule was noble so my preference is to try and make it work better first of all. 

 

 

I guess I just don't see any way to fix that... Bieneimy interviewed at least two places I read, Saleh is occupied with the playoffs (and it is known that teams dont like to wait, if possible) and Richard probably got hung up with the issues in Dallas (both in season, and the ***** show since then). But I know you aren't holding them up as the only examples. My issue with it is why do we even look at the skin color either way? For every first time coaching hire there are probably 10-20 other guys who arguably could have been equally good choices - black, white, Hispanic, etc.  The real issue is that only about 3-5 guys get interviewed for each opening, so when a minority gets passed over, they're on a list of about 10 other guys who got passed over as well. For everyone making a big deal about Bieneimy not getting hired, there's a Greg Roman, Brian Daboll, etc. 

 

I disagree about not letting the market fix itself. I think the more we try to fix problems, the more we come up with stuff like the RR the less it works. If team owners want to succeed, they need to go off the beaten path and find something that works. If they're resistant of that, they wont succeed, they'll fail, and the market will correct that. I don't think there's a way to legislate a fixture of this without there being a clear and present example of racism in hiring practices that is preventing minorities from getting jobs. It's worth mentioning, I think, that the two worst run organizations in the League (at least I would argue), the Redskins and Bengals, have had, during their time of incompetence, minority representation in the highest parts of the team (Marvin Lewis in Cin, Doug WIlliams in WSH - off the top of my head) and yet they are seen as the least progressive organizations. I think the reality is (as Biscuit and I were discussing up thread) that race has little to do with the owners not being willing to innovate and hire the best person for the job- or dare I even say, interview more than 4 dudes for the job. 

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, CommonCents said:

Eric Bienemey, has a RB ever become a decent head coach? Or a HC at all?

 

I'm not sure, I would assume someone somewhere has... But I don't know. I also don't think position matters all that much in the grand scheme of things as most guys are coaches because their understanding of the game transcended their experience from playing. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought

[CommonCents]

3 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

 

I guess I just don't see any way to fix that... Bieneimy interviewed at least two places I read, Saleh is occupied with the playoffs (and it is known that teams dont like to wait, if possible) and Richard probably got hung up with the issues in Dallas (both in season, and the ***** show since then). But I know you aren't holding them up as the only examples. My issue with it is why do we even look at the skin color either way? For every first time coaching hire there are probably 10-20 other guys who arguably could have been equally good choices - black, white, Hispanic, etc.  The real issue is that only about 3-5 guys get interviewed for each opening, so when a minority gets passed over, they're on a list of about 10 other guys who got passed over as well. For everyone making a big deal about Bieneimy not getting hired, there's a Greg Roman, Brian Daboll, etc. 

 

I disagree about not letting the market fix itself. I think the more we try to fix problems, the more we come up with stuff like the RR the less it works. If team owners want to succeed, they need to go off the beaten path and find something that works. If they're resistant of that, they wont succeed, they'll fail, and the market will correct that. I don't think there's a way to legislate a fixture of this without there being a clear and present example of racism in hiring practices that is preventing minorities from getting jobs. It's worth mentioning, I think, that the two worst run organizations in the League (at least I would argue), the Redskins and Bengals, have had, during their time of incompetence, minority representation in the highest parts of the team (Marvin Lewis in Cin, Doug WIlliams in WSH - off the top of my head) and yet they are seen as the least progressive organizations. I think the reality is (as Biscuit and I were discussing up thread) that race has little to do with the owners not being willing to innovate and hire the best person for the job- or dare I even say, interview more than 4 dudes for the job. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure, I would assume someone somewhere has... But I don't know. I also don't think position matters all that much in the grand scheme of things as most guys are coaches because their understanding of the game transcended their experience from playing. 

All I can think of is Anthony Lynn. 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

 

I guess I just don't see any way to fix that... Bieneimy interviewed at least two places I read, Saleh is occupied with the playoffs (and it is known that teams dont like to wait, if possible) and Richard probably got hung up with the issues in Dallas (both in season, and the ***** show since then). But I know you aren't holding them up as the only examples. My issue with it is why do we even look at the skin color either way? For every first time coaching hire there are probably 10-20 other guys who arguably could have been equally good choices - black, white, Hispanic, etc.  The real issue is that only about 3-5 guys get interviewed for each opening, so when a minority gets passed over, they're on a list of about 10 other guys who got passed over as well. For everyone making a big deal about Bieneimy not getting hired, there's a Greg Roman, Brian Daboll, etc. 

 

I disagree about not letting the market fix itself. I think the more we try to fix problems, the more we come up with stuff like the RR the less it works. If team owners want to succeed, they need to go off the beaten path and find something that works. If they're resistant of that, they wont succeed, they'll fail, and the market will correct that. I don't think there's a way to legislate a fixture of this without there being a clear and present example of racism in hiring practices that is preventing minorities from getting jobs. It's worth mentioning, I think, that the two worst run organizations in the League (at least I would argue), the Redskins and Bengals, have had, during their time of incompetence, minority representation in the highest parts of the team (Marvin Lewis in Cin, Doug WIlliams in WSH - off the top of my head) and yet they are seen as the least progressive organizations. I think the reality is (as Biscuit and I were discussing up thread) that race has little to do with the owners not being willing to innovate and hire the best person for the job- or dare I even say, interview more than 4 dudes for the job. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure, I would assume someone somewhere has... But I don't know. I also don't think position matters all that much in the grand scheme of things as most guys are coaches because their understanding of the game transcended their experience from playing. 

 

I don't disagree at all that we need to stop looking at skin colour. Where I disagree is that we just wait and see if time sorts it out. Like I say.... I am the opposite of a trust the market guy. 

[whatdrought]

6 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't disagree at all that we need to stop looking at skin colour. Where I disagree is that we just wait and see if time sorts it out. Like I say.... I am the opposite of a trust the market guy. 

 

 

I get it, and I may definitely be wrong. Just seems like there isn't a way to fix it without making it about skin color. I do like the idea of finding out what we can do at the lower levels to promote coaching to all races, and opening doors to everyone that are truly equal and without bias.

[JaCrispy]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But you are still talking about hiring. I am not talking about hiring. I am talking about interviewing specifically. 

Well, I’m fine with teams being required to interview minority candidates...but it seems like Steven A Smith and ESPN are not happy about that, and want more to be done...

 

My issue with that view is that now you’re getting into the arena of trying to decipher intent of the people doing the interviewing and hiring- which is a slippery slope that people shouldn’t want to go down...

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, whatdrought said:

 

 

I get it, and I may definitely be wrong. Just seems like there isn't a way to fix it without making it about skin color. I do like the idea of finding out what we can do at the lower levels to promote coaching to all races, and opening doors to everyone that are truly equal and without bias.

I think this is a great point. Andy Reid’s former crackhead son is coaching in the nfl.  Todd Haley was a college golfer whose dad worked with the Steelers.  Belichick’s weirdo son.  
 

meanwhile, you guys grinding at lower levels who can’t get a sniff at a nfl job yet the same failures get passed around.  

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, I’m fine with teams being required to interview minority candidates...but it seems like Steven A Smith and ESPN are not happy about that, and want more to be done...

 

My issue with that view is that now you’re getting into the arena of trying to decipher intent of the people doing the interviewing and hiring- which is a slippery slope that people shouldn’t want to go down...

 

 

I mean when your sport is something like 70% black and you have like 3% head coaches in the nfl and college, it’s not a good look.  But I don’t know the answer.  Maybe stop giving scrub coaches like Pat Shurmur multiple chances and trying someone new. 

[JaCrispy]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't disagree at all that we need to stop looking at skin colour. Where I disagree is that we just wait and see if time sorts it out. Like I say.... I am the opposite of a trust the market guy. 

It seemed to work with black QBs in the league...they are more prominent than ever before, and there was no affirmative action rule or legislation that made it that way...people just recognized that those QBs are just as successful or more than whites...