The Rooney Rule (still) isn’t working?

[C.Biscuit97]

7 minutes ago, Cripple Creek said:

It is fairly easy to tell who is the best at specific positions. It is extremely hard to determine who will make a strong HC.

Exactly. People who post stuff like this are distracting from the bigger point. If an Asian or white guy was good enough, they would be playing cb in the nfl (the Rams actually have a half Asian safety).  Players are meritocracy.  If you good enough, you play.  Coaching hires are completely subjective. Pat Shumur has had 2 head coaching jobs!

 

look at the best qbs now.  Jackson, Wilson, Mahomes, Watson.  There was a time when Warren Moon had to go the cfl to prove himself.  So let’s not pretend like there hasn’t been racist in the nfl.  Again, I think coaching hires are based on the old boys network more than race based.  But statistics in college and nfl show that white men get more of a chance to prove themselves than other minorities.  

[Don Otreply]

This question is a point of social behavior/prevalent attitudes nation wide. It’s called racism. 

As we all know, It was started as a means to be fair to all candidates, and of course it isn’t working, as said up a few posts, the good ole boys club that runs the show is what it is, the rule is mostly employed as lip service, we live in a  country were this sort of thing happens daily, Beuller? Bueller? Anyone? Is that coffee I smell??

 

Go Bills!!!

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Don Otreply

[badassgixxer05]

All these special rules need to go away. As long as they exist there will always be barriers between us all. 

22 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Exactly. People who post stuff like this are distracting from the bigger point. If an Asian or white guy was good enough, they would be playing cb in the nfl (the Rams actually have a half Asian safety).  Players are meritocracy.  If you good enough, you play.  Coaching hires are completely subjective. Pat Shumur has had 2 head coaching jobs!

 

look at the best qbs now.  Jackson, Wilson, Mahomes, Watson.  There was a time when Warren Moon had to go the cfl to prove himself.  So let’s not pretend like there hasn’t been racist in the nfl.  Again, I think coaching hires are based on the old boys network more than race based.  But statistics in college and nfl show that white men get more of a chance to prove themselves than other minorities.  

IDK, i show up to the courts in deleware park and get laughed at most of the time being a white guy. Its hard for a white guy to make it in sports as blacks are viewed as the superior athletes for the most part. 

[Bangarang]

Stephen A is the master of yelling stupid things hoping people will care about his opinion

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, badassgixxer05 said:

All these special rules need to go away. As long as they exist there will always be barriers between us all. 

IDK, i show up to the courts in deleware park and get laughed at most of the time being a white guy. Its hard for a white guy to make it in sports as blacks are viewed as the superior athletes for the most part. 

If you can ball, you can ball. Luka Doncic is one of the best players in the NBA.  That’s why sports are great.  But it doesn’t work like that for coaching.  
 

Par Shurmur went 9-23 (28%) in 2 seasons with the Browns.  He got hired and fired by the Giants. Leslie Frazier went 21-32-1 (39.8%) and had one playoff berth with the Vikings.  He has oversaw a top 5 defense the last 2 years.  How many coaching jobs has he been mentioned for?  Why is Daboll getting looks for being a far below average OC his entire nfl career.

 

again, I don’t think it is solely race based but something isn’t adding up. 

[CLTbills]

At the end of the day, you can't tell me that an NFL owner is going to deny the job (or refuse to hire) a coach who is more qualified, and has a better shot at leading their team to a Super Bowl than a less qualified one, simply because of color. 

 

(Almost) every owner in this thing is here to win. That should be (and I think is) the number one driving factor.

[C.Biscuit97]

6 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Stephen A is the master of yelling stupid things hoping people will care about his opinion

He’s making $10 million/ year so he’s doing something right.  

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, colin said:

there are some assumptions on this that have to be questioned.

 

in america of the adult population over say 30, blacks are about 13%, so from that point of view they are perfectly or over represented in coaching and head coaching jobs in the nfl.

 

similarly, there was a lot of talk about blacks being underrepresented at QB, but since something like 1996 they were over represented vs their % of the population at qb in the nfl.

 

the confounding factor in all of this is that blacks are so so so over represented in so many NFL player positions, and are all of CB and nearly all of RB.  

 

so the question to ask is: what is the expectation of "fairness"?  is it that blacks are as over represented at QB as they are at CB, or positions in general, or starting positions in general?  and what about coaching?  are most coaches former players, making us think that the black coaching % should match the very high % of overall players?  or of certain positions?  like, do certain positions of former players represent a higher likelihood or quality of head coaching?  are LBs or QBs or OL or whatever better HC than other positions?  do we have sufficient data to go by?

 

the comment from the article that the rooney rule isn't working suggests the commentator either simply wants more black coaches, or wants them to some higher %.  well, what % is that and what is it based on?

 

 

Show me another profession in the United States where the workforce is overwhelmingly (75%) black/minority and the management and ownership is overwhelmingly white.  

 

Fruit picking in California? 18th and early 19th century agriculture?

Just now, CLTbills said:

At the end of the day, you can't tell me that an NFL owner is going to deny the job (or refuse to hire) a coach who is more qualified, and has a better shot at leading their team to a Super Bowl than a less qualified one, simply because of color. 

 

(Almost) every owner in this thing is here to win. That should be (and I think is) the number one driving factor.

You CAN'T tell me that some NFL owners do NOT think that black coaches are inherently less capable when these are the same guys who thought black QB's were categorically less capable than their counterparts.  

 

Racism and prejudice are not logical.  Common sense arguments do not apply.

[JaCrispy]

15 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

There is no viable solution to the problems with the Rooney rule because it simply cannot achieve what it seeks to achieve.  

I don’t think the Rooney Rule sought to achieve anything but give OPPORTUNITY to those that weren’t given one...this IS NOT the same thing as guaranteeing employment.

 

Our wonderful system was created to provide as close of a level playing field for people as possible...once you get into the business of forcing people to hire certain races over others, or accepting college applicants over others based on the color of their skin, then our society has gone too far and imho, that is immoral.

[Jauronimo]

4 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I don’t think the Rooney Rule sought to achieve anything but give OPPORTUNITY to those that weren’t given one...this IS NOT the same thing as guaranteeing employment.

 

Our wonderful system was created to provide as close of a level playing field for people as possible...once you get into the business of forcing people to hire certain races over others, or accepting college applicants over others based on the color of their skin, then our society has gone too far and imho, that is immoral.

100% correct.  The rule was all about giving opportunity.  Its a bridge measure to help get the league to a point where the notion that minorities not being given a fair crack at coaching, front office, and ownership positions will be looked upon as silly as separate drinking fountains and bathrooms.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I don’t think the Rooney Rule sought to achieve anything but give OPPORTUNITY to those that weren’t given one...this IS NOT the same thing as guaranteeing employment.

 

 

Correct. And it isn't working because it isn't giving opportunity to the most talented minority coaches. It is being circumvented by giving fake opportunities to less talented minority coaches. We have to find a way to design that flaw out.

[Gugny]

I don't think a rule is the answer.

 

I think time is.

 

I think, instead of focusing on dumb crap like what players are doing during a song, the sports media should spend more time digging into the hiring statistics/practices of all teams and report on that.

 

Hiring practices will change eventually.  Trying to force it with a rule, to me, is counterproductive.

 

Give it time.  Show the world - and the teams - with real statistics and stories, how practices need to change.  With time, I think they will.

 

[JaCrispy]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Correct. And it isn't working because it isn't giving opportunity to the most talented minority coaches. It is being circumvented by giving fake opportunities to less talented minority coaches. We have to find a way to design that flaw out.

I understand where you’re coming from but I think this might be getting too nit picky...who are we to say what interviews are fake or real?
 

I think we start to cross a fine line once we do that...it’s like a previous poster said, the owner is going to want the best talent for his team...so if the owner chooses not to interview that candidate, then their “punishment “ is that they’re not getting the best talent...I don’t really see a need to put all these artificial designs to “fix” the system...more times than not it works itself out...

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

The problem I have with this whole argument is how does Stephen A. Smith know all the candidates who were interviewed for the Cards HC or other vacancies last season and this season? He just goes on to say they plucked a college HC who had an under .500 win % but don't you select a guy who feels right for your organization? I feel like teams will have their hands forced on this matter pretty soon, to me that's not the way to go about it but I don't know what the right way to go about it is either.

[colin]

32 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Show me another profession in the United States where the workforce is overwhelmingly (75%) black/minority and the management and ownership is overwhelmingly white.  

 

Fruit picking in California? 18th and early 19th century agriculture?

You CAN'T tell me that some NFL owners do NOT think that black coaches are inherently less capable when these are the same guys who thought black QB's were categorically less capable than their counterparts.  

 

Racism and prejudice are not logical.  Common sense arguments do not apply.

 

 

looool.  way to address the points liz!

 

let's play your non tedious boomer game!  show me an industry where the workforce gets paid more than the management?

 

 

[wppete]

Marvin Lewis: Can’t tell owners who to hire

 

“You keep beating your head up against the wall, but I would say — and again, this is somebody’s business, this is somebody’s franchise, and nobody’s going to tell them who to hire,” Lewis said during an interview on ESPN Radio. “But if we can just somehow open the process a bit more and provide more opportunity [then more coaches could get hired].”

 

 

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I understand where you’re coming from but I think this might be getting too nit picky...who are we to say what interviews are fake or real?
 

I think we start to cross a fine line once we do that...it’s like a previous poster said, the owner is going to want the best talent for his team...so if the owner chooses not to interview that candidate, then their “punishment “ is that they’re not getting the best talent...I don’t really see a need to put all these artificial designs to “fix” the system...more times than not it works itself out...

 

I am the opposite of a let the market fix itself guy in all walks of life. I am an interventionist which probably explains why my instinct is not to wait for the market failure to fix itself but to intervene. 

[Jpsredemption]

Every time a white male is hired there is outrage. It’s as simple as that.  

[Jauronimo]

Just now, colin said:

 

 

looool.  way to address the points liz!

 

let's play your non tedious boomer game!  show me an industry where the workforce gets paid more than the management?

 

 

So much irony.  

 

I addressed your terrible point regarding representation.  You went full FleaMoulds (you should never go full FleaMoulds), dodged my points completely, and moved the goal posts to another continent.  

 

I guess if I'm a boomer its time to change your diapers.

[Nextmanup]

16 hours ago, SirAndrew said:

This is going to turn out real well. 

The question and premise of the thread is inherently political and the OP is coming at this from a political perspective.

That's obvious.  I suppose it will be shut down at some point.