The Rooney Rule (still) isn’t working?

[LB48]

1 hour ago, thenorthremembers said:

I think things like the Rooney rule are the very thing that promote color barriers.  Mike Tomlin didnt get the Steelers job because he was the best Rooney Rule coach he got it and kept it because he was the best coach for the job, period.

 

The analyst want to be up in arms about the lack of minority coaches but have no issue with the lack of asian, latino and white players in the league, its backwards.

 

 

 

Great comment.  The Rooney Rule doesn't work in the American work place in general!

 

[2012spiller]

51 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

Almost made a thread on this earlier, but wasn’t sure how it would go over. 

 

The flak now is is that the rule isn’t resaulting in many minorities being hired. Technically speaking, something like 20% of the open positions have been filled with a minority candidate this year (Rivera in WSH) which is not all that much lower than the 30% minority makeup of the US. 

 

The problem, and the argument that Stephen A. and others don’t seem to want to engage regarding this, is that you can’t debate the Rooney rule and the lack of minority coaches in a racial vaccum. You have to present actual examples of minority coaches who are more deserving of the position being passed over. That’s kinda hard to do, I think. 

 

 

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that any time you look at anything but qualifications for a job or position, you break the system. This anger about minorities not being respresented has to intrinsically include an accusation that an owners racism is worth more to them than winning. That’s a hard pill to swallow.

 

Looking at one year in isolation as a baseline is misguided.  You have to look at all 32 coaching jobs and realize it’s not a this year issue but an accumulative issue.

 

secondly, without going to far into it, the Kapernick settlements shows the nfl and owners are more concerned with  along money not winning, as the two are not correlated.  In the vein of making money the nfl will put political/racial issues over winning.

 

Thirdly,  the nfl is moving to hiring offensive minded coaches that former QBs,  there’s not many minority candidates with that background due to the history around the position.  

 

Lastly, I would say Eric Bienemy and Byron Leftwitch come to mind as minority coaching candidates that I would higher over Rhule, zac Taylor, and the Pats wr coach hired for the giants, yet they didn’t get interviews. So yes it should be about looking purely at qualifications, but unfortunately it’s not and the Rooney rule is here to give qualified minorities a chance.  Looking at how many coaches are fired yearly and how many teams underperform, clearly the best coaching candidates are not being hired.

 

 

[DuckyBoys]

   I can't imagine what Eric Bienemy (for the sake of an example) must be thinking when he's called in as a formality  I'd be a little pissed off frankly.  I think the process of hiring is more about nepotism than racism. Look at Jerry Jones, his typical staff was all Cowboys alums.  Look at the Bills Is Beane here without McDermott's recommendation?   Gaines?  At that level a lot of it still who you know much as it is in upper echelon corporate America.   As we see  more GM's & coaches of color you will slowly see a more diverse fraternity of coaches. You're seeing more younger assistants of different backgrounds coming up . Is there someone of color who is being overlooked right now?  Who is Stephen A Smith saying is being overlooked?  Or is he just baiting and trolling as usual. 

[TwistofFate]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

Almost made a thread on this earlier, but wasn’t sure how it would go over. 

 

The flak now is is that the rule isn’t resaulting in many minorities being hired. Technically speaking, something like 20% of the open positions have been filled with a minority candidate this year (Rivera in WSH) which is not all that much lower than the 30% minority makeup of the US. 

 

The problem, and the argument that Stephen A. and others don’t seem to want to engage regarding this, is that you can’t debate the Rooney rule and the lack of minority coaches in a racial vaccum. You have to present actual examples of minority coaches who are more deserving of the position being passed over. That’s kinda hard to do, I think. 

 

 

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that any time you look at anything but qualifications for a job or position, you break the system. This anger about minorities not being respresented has to intrinsically include an accusation that an owners racism is worth more to them than winning. That’s a hard pill to swallow.

Bingo... /end

[RaoulDuke79]

How does the NFL verify or confirm that teams interviewing HC candidates adhere to the rule? Are the teams required to submit a list of coaches they interviewed?

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

How does the NFL verify or confirm that teams interviewing HC candidates adhere to the rule? Are the teams required to submit a list of coaches they interviewed?

They're required to submit pictures and DNA samples to confirm the level of melanin.  The NFL does NOT need another Soul Man, tanning pills fiasco.

[Blank Stare]

29 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

Would you do me a favor and use specifics instead of generalities? In the last, say, 20 years, whose a black QB that was deprived a chance even though he merited it? Same for a black coach that deserved a chance as a HC? Not busting your chops here, just really curious. This conversation cannot happen in generalities. It has to be specifics or else it's just pandering.

It’s a fair request. However, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, but it is also part of the problem - these types of discussions typically have to be held on someone else’s terms. Sometimes we (as in all people) just have to listen to one another. None of us can tell someone else how to feel (not that you are). Be it real or perceived, we just have to accept it and maybe have some healthy discussion about it. 
 

Now, with that said, since you asked nicely, the low hanging fruit is to say Lamar. But we all know that one. A few others I would use as examples in the modern game (excluding historical examples such as Marlin Briscoe or James Harris) would be:

 

Doug Williams
Tony Dungy (QB and Coach)
Warren Moon
Hines Ward

Braxton Miller

Michael Robinson

Armanti Edwards

Terrelle Pryor

Ronald Curry

Brad Smith

Josh Cribbs

Antwan Randel El

Denard Robinson

Kordell Stewart (to some degree)

Troy Smith

JT Barrett
Steve McNair

Brian Mitchell

 

The list goes on and on. And there are only so many that we even know about. Now, the argument might be that many of these guys got a chance to play QB or wouldn’t have been any good if they did, but that’s not the point. These guys along with many others were still asked to consider a position switch (some successfully), when maybe they would’ve preferred to give it a go at QB. 

 

Fortunately, I think guys like Lamar, Mahomes, Wilson, etc. (much like their predecessors who’ve had success) will hopefully continue to further the cause. I’d really love to get to the point where football is the ultimate meritocracy like so many have suggested. In many ways it is, but there is still a ways to go. 

[machine gun kelly]

In my role as a Medical Device Regional Manager and Director, which are multiple six figure jobs for the reps, the directive for the last 12 years from two companies was you have to reach out to diversity recruiters and make a very serious effort to recruit diversity candidates, which includes in my business women, people of minority ethnicities and race, but the directive was also hire the best person.

 

This is the right directive.  As an aside I had the second most diversity employees on my teams ranging from African American, Latino or Latina, women, and so on including multiple gay persons because I could care less about people’s etHnicity, race, gender, religion, or any thing else.  I want the #1 person for the job and happy to extend my search to make sure I’m thorough. My employees who were highly successful from people of color never wanted a job because of their diversity.  They wanted to be hired because they were the best, period.

 

I believe in that philosophy.  I believe owners and GM’s should make every effort to find the best effort including all diversity and non-diversity candidates, but when you’re sales is on the line in a highly skillful position, you only hire the best person,  but never should be influenced by people’s diverse areas as mentioned above.  I just simply don’t care.  I just want the best person that can win.  That’s all.

[Nitro]

It is a complicated issue.  Some say hire those with experience or the better candidate then a team hires a WR coach to be the new HC.  It can be seen as galling.  Hire more assistant coaches that are minority and qualified.  Promote them to coordinators then add them to the mix when new positions open up.  Bills have had their fair share of minority assistants and coordinators.  Frazier can be up for a HC position after next season if they have a repeat of this year.

[DuckyBoys]

2 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

How does the NFL verify or confirm that teams interviewing HC candidates adhere to the rule? Are the teams required to submit a list of coaches they interviewed?

Yeah they submit their interviewees.   I think Eric Bienemy might get a shot  He's got the experience and working under Andy Reid might be appealing as fresh hire from the offense side of football . Leftwich just got into coaching,, he was intern just a few years ago. Marvin Lewis?  I dont follow college enough to comment on college coaches who might be serious candidates. 

 

To say that many owners/GM's  would not consider a good candidate of color seems foolish  GM's job is on the line and the owner wants to make money  You hire the best person for the job. Winning is everything, however I still maintain nepotism might over rule everything else

[Kirby Jackson]

I’m way on the liberal side on this board and think that I’m okay without it. Just hire the best football coaches. If we get to that point, like the NBA has, it’s so much better. If Bienemy is better than Rhule, so be it. If Rhule is the better candidate so be it. Token interviews aren’t advancing anyone despite the additional “exposure.” Stop thinking about what they look like and ask, “is this the guy I want leading my football team?” If the answer is yes, hire him.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Kirby Jackson

[EasternOHBillsFan]

The disproportionate racial makeup of coaches to players is staggering... the rule is an abject failure. What do you expect from a bunch of really rich white guys? It exactly mirrors what's going on in our nation today.... but the funny thing is demographics are changing and sooner or later the piper will be paid!

[GoBills808]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m way on the liberal side on this board and think that I’m okay without it. Just hire the best football coaches. If we get to that point, like the NBA has, it’s so much better. If Bienemy is better than Rhule, so be it. If Rhule is the better candidate so be it. Token interviews aren’t advancing anyone despite the additional “exposure.” Stop thinking about what they look like and ask, “is this the guy I want leading my football team?” Of the answer is yes, hire him.

Exactly! Time for the NFL to join the rest of the world where everyone gets hired on merit. 

[Rc2catch]

Just my two cents. The rule was created to force interviews for a minority. However I’m not sure it’s fully meant to hire of course. 
It is good practice for some guys to go through the actual interview process and gain that experience which in turn may help them later to land a job. To be fair though there is not a ton of up and coming minority coaches. There’s a few but just not enough to make it more competitive. 
I could see backlash if there were clear cut better candidates just not being hired. The only minority I can think of off the top of my head this year would be the chiefs offensive coordinator but he’s absolutely not a clear cut above some that have been hired and of course coordinators in the playoffs tend to miss opportunities. 
Most teams don’t really want Marvin Lewis but he’s interviewing to fill the rule. 
Steven A is very over the top on race matters for me, you can’t force it on people. I’m all for raising awareness in aspects of race but he blabbers on sometimes and makes it very extreme that his race is neglected in many areas which I don’t always agree with. Almost trying to fire people up to cause drama as opposed to solutions to a problem 

[Andrew Son]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Exactly! Time for the NFL to join the rest of the world where everyone gets hired on merit. 

These guys just need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps!

[klos63]

1 hour ago, whatdrought said:

Almost made a thread on this earlier, but wasn’t sure how it would go over. 

 

The flak now is is that the rule isn’t resaulting in many minorities being hired. Technically speaking, something like 20% of the open positions have been filled with a minority candidate this year (Rivera in WSH) which is not all that much lower than the 30% minority makeup of the US. 

 

The problem, and the argument that Stephen A. and others don’t seem to want to engage regarding this, is that you can’t debate the Rooney rule and the lack of minority coaches in a racial vaccum. You have to present actual examples of minority coaches who are more deserving of the position being passed over. That’s kinda hard to do, I think. 

 

 

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that any time you look at anything but qualifications for a job or position, you break the system. This anger about minorities not being respresented has to intrinsically include an accusation that an owners racism is worth more to them than winning. That’s a hard pill to swallow.

I don't think it's necessarily racism, actually don't think that at all. It's just that the comfort level with retreads or just coaches with more experience which naturally excludes minorities and the thinking is , if you just give them a chance, you'll probably find who you are looking for.  The Rooney rule is not about hiring unqualified minorities, it's about not giving a chance to the qualified ones. Do you think the Baylor coach hired by Carolina is more qualified than someone like Leslie Frazier? Eric Bienemy?  He got $60 million- first time NFL head coach.

[Prickly Pete]

32 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The Steelers only interviewed him to satisfy the Rooney rule. It was reported that they had no interest in hiring him but they were blown away by him in the interview and he convinced them. 

 

Reads nicely, but maybe too nicely.....like made up after the fact to paint the narrative.

 

I think Tomlin is a great coach, and that there are plenty of Black coaches that would be good. 

[whatdrought]

1 hour ago, 2012spiller said:

 

1- Looking at one year in isolation as a baseline is misguided.  You have to look at all 32 coaching jobs and realize it’s not a this year issue but an accumulative issue.

 

2- secondly, without going to far into it, the Kapernick settlements shows the nfl and owners are more concerned with  along money not winning, as the two are not correlated.  In the vein of making money the nfl will put political/racial issues over winning.

 

3- Thirdly,  the nfl is moving to hiring offensive minded coaches that former QBs,  there’s not many minority candidates with that background due to the history around the position.  

 

Lastly, I would say Eric Bienemy and Byron Leftwitch come to mind as minority coaching candidates that I would higher over Rhule, zac Taylor, and the Pats wr coach hired for the giants, yet they didn’t get interviews. So yes it should be about looking purely at qualifications, but unfortunately it’s not and the Rooney rule is here to give qualified minorities a chance.  Looking at how many coaches are fired yearly and how many teams underperform, clearly the best coaching candidates are not being hired.

 

 

 

1- 13% right now, which is low statistically speaking, but statistics are somewhat lacking as you still have to have sound arguments for which of the other 87% are inferior to xMinority candidate. It was much higher just a couple years ago, but guys like Vance Joseph and Steve Wilks were fired due to being horrible HC's.

 

2- I disagree that that proves that premise, but I don't want to argue Kap and derail this.

 

3-  I mean, that seems like a stretch. Matt Rhule was a linebacker, Ron Rivera a defensive coach, Joe Judge a STer, and Mike McCarthy a TE. I would imagine (without doing the grunt work) that there probably isn't a huge majority of former QB's at HC in the league now.

 

4- But what standard indicates they're better suited for that? Bienemy doesn't call plays in KC (which was true of Pederson and Nagy as well, with mixed results so far, I would say), and Leftwhich just coached a QB to the first 30td/30int season in NFL history (not that I blame him for that, but he was also the OC in Arizona last year... yikes). Also, Bienemy did get interviewed by the Giants and the Panthers. I'm not sure what differentiates these two from the ones you named, and if they were all purple we wouldn't be having this conversation. That last sentence I can agree on, but i don't think it has anything to do with race. 

 

50 minutes ago, TheProcess said:

It’s a fair request. However, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, but it is also part of the problem - these types of discussions typically have to be held on someone else’s terms. Sometimes we (as in all people) just have to listen to one another. None of us can tell someone else how to feel (not that you are). Be it real or perceived, we just have to accept it and maybe have some healthy discussion about it. 

 

I'm fine having a healthy discussion and being willing to see all the perspectives, but I'm not pro-feelings when it comes to things such as this... This is a big deal and I think it needs to be engaged with varifiable proofs and evidence in order to truly be handled. It's not good enough that it feels like there is disparity, it needs to be proved in order to be attacked and handled. 

 

Quote

Now, with that said, since you asked nicely, the low hanging fruit is to say Lamar. But we all know that one. A few others I would use as examples in the modern game (excluding historical examples such as Marlin Briscoe or James Harris) would be:

 

Doug Williams
Tony Dungy (QB and Coach)
Warren Moon
Hines Ward

Braxton Miller

Michael Robinson

Armanti Edwards

Terrelle Pryor

Ronald Curry

Brad Smith

Josh Cribbs

Antwan Randel El

Denard Robinson

Kordell Stewart (to some degree)

Troy Smith

JT Barrett
Steve McNair

Brian Mitchell

 

The list goes on and on. And there are only so many that we even know about. Now, the argument might be that many of these guys got a chance to play QB or wouldn’t have been any good if they did, but that’s not the point. These guys along with many others were still asked to consider a position switch (some successfully), when maybe they would’ve preferred to give it a go at QB. 

 

Fortunately, I think guys like Lamar, Mahomes, Wilson, etc. (much like their predecessors who’ve had success) will hopefully continue to further the cause. I’d really love to get to the point where football is the ultimate meritocracy like so many have suggested. In many ways it is, but there is still a ways to go. 

 

But isn't this just the point? Is there a player there that universally is accepted as a good QB prospect who never got a fair shake at it? A guy being asked to switch positions could be because of racism, or it could be because he's just not that good... Nobody asked Patrick Mahomes to switch positions because his arm talent (though erratic coming out) was seen as such a plus side that he was worth developing. If a white Cornerback is too slow to play in the NFL and gets switched to Safety or something like that, is it racist, or is it practical?

 

You've also got on your list guys who did play, and are now in the hall of fame. Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Doug Williams (not HOF, but SB winning). I guess it just doesn't seem like a list composed of guys who were deprived a chance because of their skin color. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by whatdrought

[Chicken Boo]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

There is no viable solution to the problems with the Rooney rule because it simply cannot achieve what it seeks to achieve.  

 

It really can't.  The only thing it does is get guys in the room, giving them the opportunity to possibly "wow" an owner or GM.

 

There needs to be more Brian Flores-kind-of-hires to balance out the Cliff Kingsbury and retread hires that we often see.

[Augie]

7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m way on the liberal side on this board and think that I’m okay without it. Just hire the best football coaches. If we get to that point, like the NBA has, it’s so much better. If Bienemy is better than Rhule, so be it. If Rhule is the better candidate so be it. Token interviews aren’t advancing anyone despite the additional “exposure.” Stop thinking about what they look like and ask, “is this the guy I want leading my football team?” Of the answer is yes, hire him.

 

This is exactly as it should be. I’m really not sure it’s not exactly as it is. I mean, all anybody wants is to WIN. If it makes some people feel better, or gives someone else some “interview experience”, then fine. I’ll be honest, I hear all the coach’s names, and I rarely know what color their skin is. I just know his team has a great offense, or his team has a great defense.