DrDawkinstein Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, row_33 said: those were the days when you could make instant millions with a tshirt like this.... You would quote Archie Bunker... ? 1
row_33 Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said: You would quote Archie Bunker... ? that's a great show in reruns on WPIX on Saturdays, best seen now as who was the bigger clown between Mike and Archibald
JaCrispy Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, buffalobillswin said: Seriously dude be more diverse in your everyday life. Make friends with some Tyrones and Joakims. Your questions will answer themselves. But why? Are the Nyree’s and Leeroy’s in my life not good enough for you? Your post indicates that I don’t know enough black people in my life to have a proper understanding...which seems rather entertaining considering my family is black... I asked that simple question because it only required a simple answer...and that answer is that not all black people are oppressed just because they are black and not all white people are oppressors just because they are white...and in many cases “oppression” can also be a state of mind... I am black and had very little while growing up... but I was never oppressed...there was no one keeping back...it was through hard work (sometimes working 3 jobs to get myself through college) that now I live the American dream in the greatest land on the face of the earth. I loath discrimination against ALL people, not just minorities...and I will defend any group of people that I see it happening to- including white people...so if people have to discriminate against another group to create “equality” that is not equality to me...2 wrongs don’t make a right...it’s not something you can manufacture or make people do- because that leads to tyranny... That is why education is the best way to me...it has worked in the past and I believe it will continue to work in the future...aaa sand you don’t build resentment with other groups of people...? Edited January 9, 2020 by JaCrispy 2 1
whatdrought Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: But why? Are the Nyree’s and Leeroy’s in my life not good enough for you? Your post indicates that I don’t know enough black people in my life to have a proper understanding...which seems rather entertaining considering my family is black... I asked that simple question because it only required a simple answer...and that answer is that not all black people are oppressed just because they are black and not all white people are oppressors just because they are white...and in many cases “oppression” can also be a state of mind... I am black and had very little while growing up... but I was never oppressed...there was no one keeping back...it was through hard work (sometimes working 3 jobs to get myself through college) that now I live the American dream in the greatest land on the face of the earth. I loath discrimination against ALL people, not just minorities...and I will defend any group of people that I see it happening to- including white people...so if people have to discriminate against another group to create “equality” that is not equality to me...2 wrongs don’t make a right...it’s not something you can manufacture or make people do- because that leads to tyranny... That is why education is the best way to me...it has worked in the past and I believe it will continue to work in the future...? Good stuff.
SDS Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: But why? Are the Nyree’s and Leeroy’s in my life not good enough for you? Your post indicates that I don’t know enough black people in my life to have a proper understanding...which seems rather entertaining considering my family is black... I asked that simple question because it only required a simple answer...and that answer is that not all black people are oppressed just because they are black and not all white people are oppressors just because they are white...and in many cases “oppression” can also be a state of mind... I am black and had very little while growing up... but I was never oppressed...there was no one keeping back...it was through hard work (sometimes working 3 jobs to get myself through college) that now I live the American dream in the greatest land on the face of the earth. I loath discrimination against ALL people, not just minorities...and I will defend any group of people that I see it happening to- including white people...so if people have to discriminate against another group to create “equality” that is not equality to me...2 wrongs don’t make a right...it’s not something you can manufacture or make people do- because that leads to tyranny... That is why education is the best way to me...it has worked in the past and I believe it will continue to work in the future...? But it is very difficult to make observations on the individual level. Statistically, the numbers don't lie though. The longitudinal study of millions of white/black people presented in that NYT article is sobering and depressing as *****. I hope you have a chance to look through it. Make sure you let it load long enough to see the animated graphics. It's a fabulous visual. I'm guessing the data presented is counter-intuitive to most people on the subject (and which you hinted at). 1
SDS Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, whatdrought said: Good stuff. Why? Is it because you get to go home with a tidy anecdote in your pocket that reinforces a world view that by every societal measure - doesn't actually exist? @JaCrispy can have his personal experience without it being reflective of society at large. 2
Jauronimo Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said: So can people in this wonderful new culture, can people identify as any race they want to? I always wanted to be Polynesian, (even though it really isnt a race) so I am going to start identifying myself as Polynesian Of all the Chick Fil A dipping sauces you identify as Polynesian? 1
RoyBatty is alive Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, Jauronimo said: Of all the Chick Fil A dipping sauces you identify as Polynesian? Better than identifying as a Sweet & Spicy Sriracha. 1
whatdrought Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, SDS said: Why? Is it because you get to go home with a tidy anecdote in your pocket that reinforces a world view that by every societal measure - doesn't actually exist? @JaCrispy can have his personal experience without it being reflective of society at large. No, it's because @JaCrispy slapped down an ignorant idiot who came into a civil conversation and starting spouting racist drivel, discrediting peoples opinions based on their skin color without ever engaging an idea with his own mind or intellect. That kind of ***** pisses me off. You want to have a wider conversation that's fine, and that article is super interesting and I am working through it (though hardly a sociologist am I) in small bites, but never once in this thread did I say a damn thing about how the disparity doesn't exist. If you've read the thread you've seen that I've been completely civil and sought to keep this thread an open conversation about this issue without it turning into a racial cluster you know what - up until that other guy rolls in here and can't make it through a single sentence without being racist. As for the "tidy anecdote" that you've just written @JaCrispy's life story off as, it's good stuff because it proves the reality that while we can look at the statistics and articles like you posted- we cannot find a way forward on the macro. It has to be on the micro. We can't say the whole system is broken and white men are ruining america without specic examples of where that is true, or in his case, where it hasn't been true. Statistics can be very easily weaponized into a narrative that doesn't tell the whole picture, and doesn't provide solutions but so easily has people willing to spout off without actually engaging in conversation, as seen up thread. 10 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said: Better than identifying as a Sweet & Spicy Sriracha. That stuff is terrible. I'm more a buffalo and honey mustard guy myself.(though not together) Edited January 9, 2020 by whatdrought
GoBills808 Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, JaCrispy said: If a black kid comes from a home that brings in over $200,000 and is able to send him to a private school, does he have more privilege than a white kid growing up in the sticks, whose family can barely make ends meet? serious question... Flip your scenario around and see where that leads you.
SDS Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 1 minute ago, GoBills808 said: Flip your scenario around and see where that leads you. 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Flip your scenario around and see where that leads you. I'm guessing that is upper middle class adult. Unfortunately, the data the times presented only looked at the extremes. 1
GoBills808 Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, SDS said: People love coming in with the ‘privileged wealthy black vs poor white’ as if that doesn’t immediately illustrate the issue at hand.
JaCrispy Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: Flip your scenario around and see where that leads you. I stand by my longer post above, which lends some more insight into this...?
GoBills808 Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: I stand by my longer post above, which lends some more insight into this...? You do that.
SDS Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: People love coming in with the ‘privileged wealthy black vs poor white’ as if that doesn’t immediately illustrate the issue at hand. 1 minute ago, JaCrispy said: I stand by my longer post above, which lends some more insight into this...? But this issue is like smoking cigarettes. Smoking causes cancer... we know this, but not everyone who smokes gets cancer. It's probabilistic causation vs. deterministic causation. As you alluded to, not every black person experiences life the same way... but there is a damn good chance there will be more obstacles in the way and smaller margins of error. 1
Andrew Son Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, whatdrought said: As for the "tidy anecdote" that you've just written @JaCrispy's life story off as, it's good stuff because it proves the reality that while we can look at the statistics and articles like you posted- we cannot find a way forward on the macro. It has to be on the micro. We can't say the whole system is broken and white men are ruining america without specic examples of where that is true, or in his case, where it hasn't been true. Statistics can be very easily weaponized into a narrative that doesn't tell the whole picture, and doesn't provide solutions but so easily has people willing to spout off without actually engaging in conversation, as seen up thread. I'd say that the individual anecdote is much more easily and often weaponized. The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" examples have been in the political handbook for years.
Coach Tuesday Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 5 minutes ago, SDS said: But this issue is like smoking cigarettes. Smoking causes cancer... we know this, but not everyone who smokes gets cancer. It's probabilistic causation vs. deterministic causation. As you alluded to, not every black person experiences life the same way... but there is a damn good chance there will be more obstacles in the way and smaller margins of error. I can't believe that's even debatable.
whatdrought Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 Just now, SWATeam said: I'd say that the individual anecdote is much more easily and often weaponized. The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" examples have been in the political handbook for years. For sure, and I'm not saying either extreme is correct. I'm saying that unless those of us on this thread shape society at large (and I certainly hope nobody who spends time on this board is shaping society. lol), we are stuck with the individual situations. That isn't to ignore the macro, but it's also seeking to find solutions from the micro. As it has been with the rooney rule conversation and the % of minority coaches. Can we point to minority candidates who clearly are more deserving of a position than the non-minority who got passed over where there is no reason other than their race? If so, I assume we'd all group together and have righteous anger about that. But saying x% of coaches are minorities and it should be x% instead, loses the reality of the argument because how do we address it? Where do we find the injustice? Same thing when we discuss the larger socialite issues. Where are the specifics of these injustices that we can combat? That, I think, is where the conversation has to start.
Jauronimo Posted January 9, 2020 Posted January 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, SWATeam said: I'd say that the individual anecdote is much more easily and often weaponized. The "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" examples have been in the political handbook for years. Off topic, but my favorite "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" story in recent years is the one I keep hearing from old timers regarding millenials "whining" about how they can't afford houses. I never get tired of hearing about how a guy with a highschool education, working an unskilled labor position, at a time when you had minimal competition from women and minorities for jobs, before economic globalization, a few short years after the worlds' manufacturing capability outside the U.S. was reduced to rubble but before the emergence of cheap labor from China, and way before basic necessities like shelter were treated as the preferred safe haven asset class for investors here and abroad, was able to save their salary for three whole months while supporting a family of 7 to buy a house in the burbs. Its that damn avocado toast! 2 1
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