The REAL reason Duke Didnt Catch The TD Pass

[RyanC883]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:52 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

Great angle.

 

When Allen threw it and I saw how it was coming to Duke I honestly thought it was going to be a TD.

 

Sucks. Game was just full of so many weird missed opportunities.

 

I really like Duke and think he has a shot to make the roster next year, but the reason he's a relative longshot to see much time on the field again simply has to do with investments.

 

John Brown and Cole Beasley are our obvious roster locks and will be on the field.

 

After that it's relatively open, except Daboll loves that Isaiah McKenzie type WR, so if it's not him, it's someone we pick up in FA or possibly in the draft.

 

But really what I think will almost certainly happen is we draft a guy in the 1st or 2nd round, and that's the guy who gets on the field because of the obvious investment.

 

Duke should have been active all year and Foster should have been inactive.

 

It's that simple.

 

With that time, Allen and him could have developed more chemistry that might have helped us even a little more in the playoffs.

 

Unfortunately, our coaches are stubbornly married to skills that match scheme rather than ability to play on a football field.

 

For that reason, I think Duke's time with the Bills in meaningful games is done.

 

another reason in a long line why Daboll needs to go.  

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

For me, the most disturbing play of the game was the QB sweep in overtime where Allen had three lead blockers and Knox and Morse fail to even try to block Cunningham. Had either one of them just put a shoulder on Cunningham, that game would have been over. Like I said in other posts, their is so much blame to go around in this game.

 

However, I love where this team is headed.

 

I agree, that play was the most disturbing because it was 100% in our control and not something out of our control like the multiple gaffes by the refs in OT that also cost us dearly.  There was so much room for Allen to seal that game and Morse and Knox ignore the lone tackler.  Personally, that is way more on Knox because Morse has one more would be tackler to block downfield and Knox is right there with nobody to block but the one guy and runs right past him to open space like he was the ball carrier.  

[Shaw66]

On 1/6/2020 at 11:16 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Ok that is actually an interesting question.  Not really a fair one as they play different roles as Cole is a key slot contributor.

 

Truthfully, I think Duke has a lot more to offer still and could be a surprise come camp next year.  But Cole has a clearly more established resume and track record to go with his established chemistry with Josh.  Not to mention, Cole is a very cerebral player that will aid in Josh's development as well.  

 

I do not think it would ever come down to Cole or Duke on the depth chart given Cole is our slot guy and Duke is not a slot WR.  But being forced to pick one based on your question, I would still keep Beasley.  I mean he plays a vital role, has great chemistry with Josh already, and also is constantly in Josh's ear working to get better on the field which I think is too valuable to ignore.   

 

But I will say this:  If we ran a full season of Brown, Cole, and Duke as the starting 3 WR's...then I am not so sure Cole would out produce Duke.  

I think you're right about this.   Actually, I might take Duke over Beasley because he might be a better piece to have on the field if the Bills get a real #1.   I know, Beasley can run the slot routes and all that, but I still think Duke's size and competitive fire might be the better weapon.   

 

It sure looks like they waited too long to get Duke in the lineup. 

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I think you're right about this.   Actually, I might take Duke over Beasley because he might be a better piece to have on the field if the Bills get a real #1.   I know, Beasley can run the slot routes and all that, but I still think Duke's size and competitive fire might be the better weapon.   

 

It sure looks like they waited too long to get Duke in the lineup. 

 

Yeah someone posted his stats in his first 5 games this year to DK Metcalfs stats through 5 games, and they were pretty similar.  Makes you wonder what he could have done had been a starter a full year.  What I do know, is that Duke out produced the combined stats on the year of Zay, Foster, Roberts, and Mckenzie and did that in just 5 games.

 

Seems silly to think he wasn't out there more given no one else was performing to the point to warrant the reps.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I agree, that play was the most disturbing because it was 100% in our control and not something out of our control like the multiple gaffes by the refs in OT that also cost us dearly.  There was so much room for Allen to seal that game and Morse and Knox ignore the lone tackler.  Personally, that is way more on Knox because Morse has one more would be tackler to block downfield and Knox is right there with nobody to block but the one guy and runs right past him to open space like he was the ball carrier.  

Morse didn't see him until the last second.   

 

You often see plays where the o lineman is out front and blocks the wrong guy.   They don't read the field as well as the running backs do.  

 

I mean, Morse should have made the block, but stuff like that happens a dozen times a game. 

[LSHMEAB]

Duke Williams will never be confused with Jerry Rice, was a little gimpy, and the DB made a nice play on his arm. That would have been a pretty tough catch.

 

No such excuses for Brown. That's a routine toe tap.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yeah someone posted his stats in his first 5 games this year to DK Metcalfs stats through 5 games, and they were pretty similar.  Makes you wonder what he could have done had been a starter a full year.  What I do know, is that Duke out produced the combined stats on the year of Zay, Foster, Roberts, and Mckenzie and did that in just 5 games.

 

Seems silly to think he wasn't out there more given no one else was performing to the point to warrant the reps.

Someone asked McDermott about why Duke didn't play until the Jets game (ignoring his earlier stint).   McDermott said what he always said - you have to earn your playing time, and he seemed to say that you have to earn the right to continue to start.   It was kind of a backhanded way of saying Duke kept looking better in practice and someone, or some combination of players, gradually were producing less.  

 

Watching the Duke in the Texans games and then seeing Metcalfe again, it made me realize just how small the Bills' receivers actually were.   I mean, I knew the stats about their size - the smurfs and all - but I was struck by how muck Duke looked like an NFL wideout.   He just has the size to compete.  

 

Now, if the Bills draft a Metcalfe in the first or second round, Duke may be out of luck.   That is, a guy with Duke's size and the same or better speed and hands may be paired with Brown, with Beasley in the slot, and that might do the trick.   

 

Frankly, I'd like to see a good sized big guy and Duke as the wideouts, and Brown in the slot.   Run that trips formation with the #1 on one side, Croft, Brown and Williams on the other and tell the defense to deal with THAT.

2 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

If Brown steps out before the ball arrives and then steps back in and catches it with two feet in, is it still a legal catch?

No.  That's basketball.  He can't leave the field and be the first one to touch it after he returns.  He had no hope of making the catch on that one.  

 

The other one, however, he screwed up.   As someone said, that should have been a routine toe tap and a reception.   I don't know why that happened.   I thought Brown had better skills than that.   Beasley would have made that play in his sleep.  

[Nelius]

On 1/7/2020 at 8:01 PM, ArtVandalay said:

The DBs arm is across his stomach and no where near hooking his arm until WELL after Duke dropped the ball!!

 

Fix your title or delete this post you FRAUD!!

 

So is the anger like a Costanza bit that you're doing? Falling pretty flat. Just seems like you're really angry.

 

In general I can kind of agree with the mismanagement of the wide receiver position this year, and the fact that Duke getting as many targets as he did in a playoff game was a bit of a head scratcher, but folks...Robert Foster, and to a lesser degree, Andre Roberts. Something had to be done. I feel like if you're angry about this then more of it should be directed there, particularly at Foster, for completely wasting a roster spot this year. I can't help but feel that the serious Duke haters still kind of let Foster skate by, and it's mind numbing. That's a guy who truly did NOTHING this season and doesn't belong on an NFL roster. Don't tell me about his sudden punt gunning skills, he's a wide receiver that doesn't catch footballs.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Nelius

[Laughing Coffin]

 

[LABILLBACKER]

Everyone just settle down. Both Brown and Williams will be on this team next year contributing along with Shenault and Amari. We're going to have a whole slew of wrs next year. Josh will have a regular smorgasbord. 

[row_33]

14 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Can't be the first guy to touch live ball after going OB iirc...if the DB tips it before you touch it after going out then I think it's ok but could be wrong about that

 

i don't recall a play where the WR stepped out and then caught a ball tipped by the D

 

plausible though

 

 

[Laughing Coffin]

10 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Everyone just settle down. Both Brown and Williams will be on this team next year contributing along with Shenault and Amari. We're going to have a whole slew of wrs next year. Josh will have a regular smorgasbord. 

0 chance we are paying for cooper AND using our 1st on the same position

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I have gone over the Brown incompletion, in great depth. 

 

There was zero reason for Duke Williams to have lead every receiver playing on wildcard weekend in targets. Not every Bills receiver- EVERY SINGLE RECEIVER PLAYING on wildcard weekend. Think about that for a second.

 

I don't blame Williams for not catching this ball. He's not very good. That's why he was inactive the majority of the year. I can point out how he's technically flawed, and I can question why he was the focal point of the offense when he's clearly not deserving of it, and how that strategy basically cost the Bills the game, but I'm not blaming the guy for being the player he's been all year. There's little reason to expect him to be a difference maker and he wasn't.

 

I have not yet had the intestinal fortitude to re-watch the entire game, but this is a burning question in my mind.

 

"Dance with who brung ya".

 

Brown, Beasley, and Knox as receivers brung ya.  So where were they?  Were they not on the field?  Were they never open? 

The play design should feature these guys and the QB should be looking for them every play where the coverage dictates they may be open.

12 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Morse didn't see him until the last second.   

You often see plays where the o lineman is out front and blocks the wrong guy.   They don't read the field as well as the running backs do.  

I mean, Morse should have made the block, but stuff like that happens a dozen times a game. 

 

If I'm reading it right, it was Knox block to make and he just whiffed it.

 

He says he wants to be a good blocker (locker room interview).  He's got a long way to go.

 

But blocking the right guy on OL is part of what makes a good OL.  Our OL has been Keystone cop like at times.  And we persist in asking TE to block top pass rushers.

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

But blocking the right guy on OL is part of what makes a good OL.  Our OL has been Keystone cop like at times.  And we persist in asking TE to block top pass rushers.

I agree with what you say. 

 

But what I'm saying is that it isn't always easy for o linemen to make the right judgments about whom to block.  It IS part of what makes them good or not so good.   On one play on Sunday Jason Peters was 10 yards downfield and blocked no one.   I think they don't see the field as well as ball carriers, and they certainly don't change direction as well.   If there's a guy more or less in their path, they make the block.   

 

I'd better that every game every team has missed blocks by olinemen downfield.   

 

That doesn't mean it was okay.  Both Morse and Knox look at that film and say they should have made the block.

 

That's the point that all the coaches and players always make - it's a team game, and every guy will say that he left plays on the field.  It's in the nature of the game.   The one I keep talking about that doesn't seem to bother anyone was on the Bills' last offensive play, after the blindside block penalty on Ford.   Bills ran what I think was a hook and ladder to Williams with Singletary trailing the play.   Bills needed 20 yards to get into field goal range, Houston was in some sort of prevent defense, giving Williams a lot of cushion maybe seven yards downfield.  Allen overthrew him.   Simple, simple throw.   Allen makes that throw, Duke draws tacklers and pitches, maybe Singletary has to make only one man miss to get the 20 yards.   Who knows?

 

The point is that getting every man to execute properly on every play is impossible.   To look at any one play and say that's the play that cost the game really is not the correct way to look at the game.   

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

The point is that getting every man to execute properly on every play is impossible.   To look at any one play and say that's the play that cost the game really is not the correct way to look at the game.   

 

I don't think anyone is saying that, certainly not me (I could be wrong).  But there are usually 5-6 plays that swing the game.  The thing that's particularly troubling about this game for the Bills is that the Bills were 0 for 6 and there seem to be some patterns.

 

I think the play where both Morse and Knox whiffed is particularly critical because Allen took a massive hit.  Jim Kubiak wrote that he was shaken on that play and ineffective afterwards.  He may be correct.  That's partly on Allen to be less "gamer" and go down or get out of bounds and not let himself get pasted in those circs.

 

 

 

[2003Contenders]

That was a 50-50 play in which each participant deserves some credit: the line for giving Josh time to set his feet and make the throw, Josh for making a pinpoint pass, Duke for being in the position to make the catch -- and the defender for doing enough to prevent the conversion. While I agree that a top-notch receiver should make that catch -- and Duke will probably tell you himself that he wished that he had come down with the ball -- the truth of the matter is that it is hardly a "drop".

 

Or, how about this...

 

That play represented not only a non-TD that would have put the Bills up by 3 scores going into halftime -- but it also represented a failed 3rd down conversion. What makes it worse is that they were in that position because of the two wasted plays on 1st down and 2nd down. The first was the inexplicable hand-off to Gore; the second was a spike to stop the clock. Maybe if the Bills had run three similar pass plays (passes to the endzone -- whether to Duke or someone else), their odds of completing just ONE of those THREE hypothetical shots certainly would have been better than the all-or-nothing SINGLE pass play to Duke.

 

Maybe that's just me...

[ILBillsfan]

24 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I have not yet had the intestinal fortitude to re-watch the entire game, but this is a burning question in my mind.

 

"Dance with who brung ya".

 

Brown, Beasley, and Knox as receivers brung ya.  So where were they?  Were they not on the field?  Were they never open? 

The play design should feature these guys and the QB should be looking for them every play where the coverage dictates they may be open.

 

If I'm reading it right, it was Knox block to make and he just whiffed it.

 

He says he wants to be a good blocker (locker room interview).  He's got a long way to go.

 

But blocking the right guy on OL is part of what makes a good OL.  Our OL has been Keystone cop like at times.  And we persist in asking TE to block top pass rushers.

The two no chance in happening passes at the end of the game before they kicked the FG to tie went as attempts to Duke.  Sometimes you have to actually look at the game vs just look at the stat sheet and so oh wow look at all those targets.  But that is what happens when you just look at box scores

[2003Contenders]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think anyone is saying that, certainly not me (I could be wrong).  But there are usually 5-6 plays that swing the game.  The thing that's particularly troubling about this game for the Bills is that the Bills were 0 for 6 and there seem to be some patterns.

 

I think the play where both Morse and Knox whiffed is particularly critical because Allen took a massive hit.  Jim Kubiak wrote that he was shaken on that play and ineffective afterwards.  He may be correct.  That's partly on Allen to be less "gamer" and go down or get out of bounds and not let himself get pasted in those circs.

 

 

 

I was VERY surprised that the game was not stopped and Josh examined for a possible concussion after that play. I was also surprised that a flag wasn't thrown for a helmet-to-helmet hit on Cunningham. Regardless, as you said, if Knox and Morse do their job, that hit never happens.

Edited January 9, 2020 by 2003Contenders

[ILBillsfan]

12 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with what you say. 

 

But what I'm saying is that it isn't always easy for o linemen to make the right judgments about whom to block.  It IS part of what makes them good or not so good.   On one play on Sunday Jason Peters was 10 yards downfield and blocked no one.   I think they don't see the field as well as ball carriers, and they certainly don't change direction as well.   If there's a guy more or less in their path, they make the block.   

 

I'd better that every game every team has missed blocks by olinemen downfield.   

 

That doesn't mean it was okay.  Both Morse and Knox look at that film and say they should have made the block.

 

That's the point that all the coaches and players always make - it's a team game, and every guy will say that he left plays on the field.  It's in the nature of the game.   The one I keep talking about that doesn't seem to bother anyone was on the Bills' last offensive play, after the blindside block penalty on Ford.   Bills ran what I think was a hook and ladder to Williams with Singletary trailing the play.   Bills needed 20 yards to get into field goal range, Houston was in some sort of prevent defense, giving Williams a lot of cushion maybe seven yards downfield.  Allen overthrew him.   Simple, simple throw.   Allen makes that throw, Duke draws tacklers and pitches, maybe Singletary has to make only one man miss to get the 20 yards.   Who knows?

 

The point is that getting every man to execute properly on every play is impossible.   To look at any one play and say that's the play that cost the game really is not the correct way to look at the game.   

It does happen but it is so ingrained in these guys heads from an early stage in foot ball to seal the edge (this includes having the backers blocked as well on pulls before moving to the higher levels equates to me on the defense side as keeping your Gap responsibility and not abandoning it.

 

I really hate to see fundamentals  cost teams but in this game so many times it was just the small fundamental thing that did.  

 

murphy vs Watson on the first TD leaves his contain to go to the RB and Watson has a free run that he ends up taking all the way for the TD 

This play on offense seal the edge, can hear the coaches at practice hopefully saying what he say and that is a block 7 yards down field does no good if a guy is not blocked at the los

the line vs a three man rush inexcusably lets a guy just run free to of all things the offensive lineman's inside position as the inside guy leaves his spot to go help tow guys that are blocking one on a critical fourth down play ughhh.

 

Sometimes I just don't understand how the building blocks as in these are the A's of the abc's just go right out the window.  This game really tests a players mentality every play it has to be there and unfortunately at some untimely times in the game it was not.

 

Sorry I really rambled there

[RoyBatty is alive]

13 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

That was a 50-50 play in which each participant deserves some credit: the line for giving Josh time to set his feet and make the throw, Josh for making a pinpoint pass, Duke for being in the position to make the catch -- and the defender for doing enough to prevent the conversion. While I agree that a top-notch receiver should make that catch -- and Duke will probably tell you himself that he wished that he had come down with the ball -- the truth of the matter is that it is hardly a "drop".

 

Or, how about this...

 

That play represented not only a non-TD that would have put the Bills up by 3 scores going into halftime -- but it also represented a failed 3rd down conversion. What makes it worse is that they were in that position because of the two wasted plays on 1st down and 2nd down. The first was the inexplicable hand-off to Gore; the second was a spike to stop the clock. Maybe if the Bills had run three similar pass plays (passes to the endzone -- whether to Duke or someone else), their odds of completing just ONE of those THREE hypothetical shots certainly would have been better than the all-or-nothing SINGLE pass play to Duke.

 

Maybe that's just me...

 

I had forgotten that sequence and i now recall being so pissed at the ridiculous series starting with, of all people, giving the ball to Gore.  they should have had three legit shots at the end zone, not one.