Like A Mofo Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 A lot of fans obsess over whether Josh Allen 'is the guy' to lead the Buffalo Bills into this decade and maybe even We all look to the Super Bowl winning quarterbacks as the benchmark to determine this or not. Sometimes I do not think most understand how truly difficult it has shown to be to have a Super Bowl winning QB on your team. How many different QB's have won a Super Bowl ? 32. Let's take it a step further, how many different QB's have even made it to a Super Bowl? 62. That it folks. To even appear in a Super Bowl, the odds are very slim. Think of all the really awesome QB's over the years that never even got 1 chance, (Dan Fouts, Warren Moon, Jim Everett, Bernie Kosar just a few off the top of my head) And we have to prepare for the ups and downs. Some QB's that won multiple SB's like an Eli Manning, think of how many lean years that Giants had as a franchise sandwiched in and around those 2 SB wins? We have to take a step back and realize that Josh Allen is only 23 years old. Only in his 2nd season. Remember Kirk Cousins, mister, he can't win a playoff game? Well he did. Let things play out. And even if the Bills take a step back in 2020, maybe they do take three steps forward in 2021. It happens. These NFL teams are very close in talent. Always think big picture. Owner, GM, Coach and QB. As long as those 3-4 things are aligned in a very positive way, the Bills will be just fine. If Allen plays say 12 years, if the Bills get 3 or 4 legitimate shots at winning it all, if you really study the history of the NFL, that is damn good. Just allow it to develop. Allen has a long way to go. 1 2
PatsFanNH Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, Like A Mofo said: A lot of fans obsess over whether Josh Allen 'is the guy' to lead the Buffalo Bills into this decade and maybe even We all look to the Super Bowl winning quarterbacks as the benchmark to determine this or not. Sometimes I do not think most understand how truly difficult it has shown to be to have a Super Bowl winning QB on your team. How many different QB's have won a Super Bowl ? 32. Let's take it a step further, how many different QB's have even made it to a Super Bowl? 62. That it folks. To even appear in a Super Bowl, the odds are very slim. Think of all the really awesome QB's over the years that never even got 1 chance, (Dan Fouts, Warren Moon, Jim Everett, Bernie Kosar just a few off the top of my head) And we have to prepare for the ups and downs. Some QB's that won multiple SB's like an Eli Manning, think of how many lean years that Giants had as a franchise sandwiched in and around those 2 SB wins? We have to take a step back and realize that Josh Allen is only 23 years old. Only in his 2nd season. Remember Kirk Cousins, mister, he can't win a playoff game? Well he did. Let things play out. And even if the Bills take a step back in 2020, maybe they do take three steps forward in 2021. It happens. These NFL teams are very close in talent. Always think big picture. Owner, GM, Coach and QB. As long as those 3-4 things are aligned in a very positive way, the Bills will be just fine. If Allen plays say 12 years, if the Bills get 3 or 4 legitimate shots at winning it all, if you really study the history of the NFL, that is damn good. Just allow it to develop. Allen has a long way to go. The stat is a little skewed from the last 30 years in the AFC WHERE IT WAS Brady, Manning, or Big Ben for all but 2 years.. (and those two years were Raven SB..) make it worse it’s been Pats, Colts, Broncos. Steelers or Ravens all 20 years. So the last 30 years on roughly 33% of the AFC made the SB.. in the NFC 14 different teams have made it with only the Giants and Eagles making it twice. (Like 98%) .. AFC has been very top heavy this last decade and I see the Ravens going to the SB this year to keep the percentage down still. 1
ThurmasThoman Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 This is a great thread, but I imagine it will get bogged down with "cool" and "ok, thanks" and "we really needed this?" type of responses. But you're bringing up a great point that this generation of Bills fans just seems to miss entirely--and I blame it entirely on the Patriots setting the bar for success impossibly high. Millennial fans seem to think: if a qb has a bad stretch/playoff game/season, whatever, it's over, call for his head, tear it down and rebuild. Look at Tanny in Tenny! Miami cut bait 1 year too soon, right? Jimmy G in San Fran, same story. Brees in NO, same story. Kirk in Minny, possibly the same story. Fact of the matter is, half of the QBs still alive in the playoffs were brought in, the other half were drafted. There's just no way to reliably quantify what a winning team IS, and what it looks like. Folks, we're just simply not going to build a dynasty. If we do, and we happen to hold the next power ball ticket, well hey, good for us. But a far more realistic expectation is exactly what you're painting. I mean, just look at the Saints. 3 GREAT seasons in a row, SB winning QB and head coach, and they got jinxed out of the playoffs each time. Should they tear it down and rebuild? The fact of the matter is, the sport is entirely too random to hold it against teams for "under achieving". Of course, that doesn't stop fans and the media for doing just that. Primarily because the media is a 24/7 machine that needs to justify its existence in ad revenue, so they're intentionally provocative. But I think, the team we have in place, the front office, the coaches, the players--man I love rooting for these guys. I think they have a legitimate chance to be champions next year. I'm gonna watch every second of every game. I'm gonna have friends and family over for each one. Cookouts, cookins, the whole 9. It's gonna be great. And I'm gonna enjoy the hell out of it. Can't wait! 2 2
Albany,n.y. Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 Jim Kelly didn't reach the Super Bowl until his 5th season with the Bills, the 8th season of his draft class. Kelly missed the 1983 season because his USFL contract started in 1984, so he was in his 7th professional season the 1st time he reached the Super Bowl.
Boatdrinks Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 There is truth in this. Tom Brady, the Cheats and a complicit NFL have ruined football for a new generation of fans, and ruined the last 20 years of football for everyone else. This kind of thing just never happens, folks! There have been previous dynasties in the NFL, but if they lasted 10 years it was a stretch and there was no free agency. NE has been one tremendous outlier in the entire existence of pro football. It’s not happening again, ever. Soon things will take a turn back toward normal, but it will take years for the mentality of fans to change. Longtime observers of the NFL will gladly accept the re-set to pre 2001 NFL football and dynamics around the league. Have to be realistic with QBs, and what it will take to reach a Super Bowl game going forward in the post Pats* era that will soon be upon us. 1
Alphadawg7 Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) Here is a simpler way too look at it: How many seasons have Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees played combined? And how many SB appearances did they make and how many did they win? Both had elite weapons most their careers to throw to as well. These guys have been seen to be amongst the best and best ever to play and would be in most peoples top 10 all time. 34 seasons, only 2 SB appearances total (both wins). Edited January 6, 2020 by Alphadawg7 1
clayboy54 Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 Fantasy Football is a major contributor to the false narrative that young fans have today. This is because FF is all about numbers. Remember it comes from the baseball game which IS all about numbers. NFL football has always been called the ultimate team game. This is diametrically opposed to fantasy football where it’s all about the individual stats. Case in-point is where so many truly believe that Josh Allen isn’t good because he doesn’t throw for 300+ yards. He’s not good for your fantasy league, but nothing about FF correlates to real NFL football. By the way, FF has created a new breed of fan. This new fan really doesn’t understand much about the game. This is too bad, because in my opinion the best part of watching NFL football is following the art of team building from the GMs, the scouting, contracts, personalities and of course, coaching. None of this means squat in fantasy football. Nowhere is this more evident than with the QB position. A good example is with Eli Manning. Nobody in their right mind would have considered Eli a great FF QB. Yet, he is a 2-time Super Bowl champion and an MVP at that. He’s likely going into the Hall of Fame. The same is true with Frank Gore. He was never a breakaway runner. He never had the flashy plays. Yet, he is legendary in that he played so many good years, has bypassed most all of the greatest RBs of all-time, and he is surely a Hall of Famer. Yet here, we read over and over how he’s a worthless player that should be cut immediately. Somehow he just keeps plugging away and gaining yards even if it’s at 3 yards a clip. For those of you who disagree, take some time and study the game of professional football in-depth. It’s a fun way to spend your free time and it’ll give you new-found perspective. After all, guys like Bill Belichick, Don Shula, Sid Gilman and Gil Brandt became great BECAUSE they are the most diligent students of the game, not because they got wrapped up in offensive production and numbers and certainly not because they are FF experts. This new breed of coach like Nagy and McVay look exciting at first glance, but they’ll more than likely either adapt by learning the whole game better, or fade into anonymity with the likes or Don Coryell, Mike Martz and Mouse Davis. We are blessed to be fans of the greatest sport in the world. It warrants taking the time to learn as much history and background of the game as we can to be better informed fans and to best enjoy the game we all love.
machine gun kelly Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Here is a simpler way too look at it: How many seasons have Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees played combined? And how many SB appearances did they make and how many did they win? Both had elite weapons most their careers to throw to as well. These guys have been seen to be amongst the best and best ever to play and would be in most peoples top 10 all time. 34 seasons, only 2 SB appearances total (both wins). Alpha, agree with you, but neither of these QB’s had excellent defenses most of these years. I still don’t believe in the GB defense, and it’s only recently NO has a top flight defense since their SB year. I was shocked they didn’t make it these last three years. There was that MN miracle then a famous no call, and even yesterday a game winning no call. MN deserves to advance as they were running at NO like I haven’t seen other teams do except maybe the 49ers. On thes other points from the OP, well said and we can’t blow up a team every couple of years in Buffalo. It’s still raw for everyone, but they have made the playoffs 2 of 3 years, and will be stronger next year. We’ll get there. I’m finally over the depression yesterday and it’s just let’s move on and let it go.
Big Blitz Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) I'm dumbfounded how we (some fans, entire local media) are evaluating this offense like its being led by a 7 year vet at QB with guys that have been together for years. If you were angrily complaining about this offense all season and after the playoff game, as if you expected more you have ZERO perspective. I want it to score 30 a game to. And Josh to complete 70 percent of his passes. Brown and Beasley to both have had 1000 yard seasons. Knox to have had 600 yards and 50 catches showing us he's the next Kittle. And Singletary to have had 1400 yards rushing. Showing us he's the next Thurman Thomas. I also would like 100 million dollars, a mansion, and a yacht. This offense and our QB didn't show they were the next greatest show on turf. But they did show some very good things considering they were totally new to each other. More importantly our QB answered the question the talking heads conveniently moved the goal posts on bc they knew that they misread Allen. The question morphed into "why isn't he Mahomes?" The question always was "is this kid good enough to build around?" And he answered with an emphatic "yes." I can't wait to see how he improved he is next year. I know everyone wanted a concrete "oh this kid is the next Manning!" But the odds of that were so low. What we have is something very promising and exciting. Do you understand how ticked Jets and Browns fans and other fans are that have seen this kid jump threw Cowboys defenders for first downs, throw darts all over the field to midgets, sprint all over the place and even catch TDs in the playoffs? The people trashing him and his so called "dumb" are really just envious they don't have this mobile big armed freak that everyone likes because he's a good dude and teammate. The "dumb" is this trait he has you have to be careful with.....yes he absolutely will resort to hero ball and try to do too much. Ok. That's the biggest problem I have in my QB? Cool thank you. He is must see TV and they all know it. And they hate that because of how grossly wrong they were pre draft. I'll be the first one on this board to tell you if it were time to move on and get someone else. But right now for the first time in over 20 years I'm not worried about the QB. He can get this team to a SB. Edited January 6, 2020 by Big Blitz 2 2
Alphadawg7 Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said: Alpha, agree with you, but neither of these QB’s had excellent defenses most of these years. I still don’t believe in the GB defense, and it’s only recently NO has a top flight defense since their SB year. I was shocked they didn’t make it these last three years. There was that MN miracle then a famous no call, and even yesterday a game winning no call. MN deserves to advance as they were running at NO like I haven’t seen other teams do except maybe the 49ers. On thes other points from the OP, well said and we can’t blow up a team every couple of years in Buffalo. It’s still raw for everyone, but they have made the playoffs 2 of 3 years, and will be stronger next year. We’ll get there. I’m finally over the depression yesterday and it’s just let’s move on and let it go. Oh yeah for sure, point is even being an Elite QB, an all time elite QB, its tough to get to a SB. People around here often lose site of that for some reason and think the only ticket to a SB is with an elite QB. But come playoff time, defense matters and if you are a one sided team then you likely wont make many SB appearances. I mean Manning also went one and done an NFL record 9 times in INDY. Got blown out in SB with Denver as the greatest offense in NFL history just to go on to win it 2 years later with an Elite D and a bad passing game in his final season where he was a shell of himself. Edited January 6, 2020 by Alphadawg7 1
Seventeen Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 Trent Dilfer made it to the big game so there's hope for Josh.
ticketssince61 Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 1 hour ago, PatsFanNH said: The stat is a little skewed from the last 30 years in the AFC WHERE IT WAS Brady, Manning, or Big Ben for all but 2 years.. (and those two years were Raven SB..) make it worse it’s been Pats, Colts, Broncos. Steelers or Ravens all 20 years. So the last 30 years on roughly 33% of the AFC made the SB.. in the NFC 14 different teams have made it with only the Giants and Eagles making it twice. (Like 98%) .. AFC has been very top heavy this last decade and I see the Ravens going to the SB this year to keep the percentage down still. That is really an amazing stat!
ThurmasThoman Posted January 6, 2020 Posted January 6, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Oh yeah for sure, point is even being an Elite QB, an all time elite QB, its tough to get to a SB. People around here often lose site of that for some reason and think the only ticket to a SB is with an elite QB. But come playoff time, defense matters and if you are a one sided team then you likely wont make many SB appearances. I mean Manning also went one and done an NFL record 9 times in INDY. Got blown out in SB with Denver as the greatest offense in NFL history just to go on to win it 2 years later with an Elite D and a bad passing game in his final season where he was a shell of himself. Bingo: Top 4 passing teams this year: Tampa, Dallas, Atlanta, LAR. None qualified for the tournament. Top 4 rushing teams this year: Baltimore, San Fran, Tennessee, Seattle. All still in the playoffs. Out of 4 coaches eliminated this past weekend, 3 were Super Bowl champs, beaten by 3 coaches who have never won a Super Bowl. 3 of the 4 road teams won on Wild Card weekend. 4 of the 8 qbs left were acquired, 4 were drafted. Look at the NFC over the last 20 years, where they haven't had a Patriots-level dynasty to skew the parity: Super Bowl trips by each of NYG, Phi, Car, Atl, No, TB, GB, Chi, SF, LAR, Ari, Sea. Only Was, Dal, Det and Min haven't made it, and 2 of those teams won Super Bowls the decade before (as we know.) Fact of the matter is: it's a crap shoot. No analytics can change that. Look at the "experts" on tv every week. All they have to do is predict the sunday night game. They're all like, 6-12 lol. No one has any damn idea whats gonna happen out on that field. So to mitigate that, fans want to just fire and fire and cut and cut until it works and they stumble into the right formula. But look! Even then, even in places like Philly, or LAR, or NEW ENGLAND NOW(!!) losing breeds discontent. The QB that broke Philly's championship drought is in Jacksonville, and they hate him now because some guy named Gardner has a cool mustache. Lol, fans are fukkin idiots, man. The NFL is the best strategy game in the world. It's Starcraft, or Catan, with the added bonus of being a blood sport with tribal allegiances. It's the best hobby in the world. And to make the hobby EVEN BETTER, our overlords have instituted a mandate of parity, meaning good teams are handicapped the next year, while bad teams are given every advantage. If the Pats were replaced with some total deadbeat franchise these past 20 years, let's say they were in the North and we got Cleveland 2x a year instead, we might be sitting here talking about the year Orton took us to the AFC Championship game, or the year Trent won us a Super Bowl. It's crazy talk, sure, but a bounce here, a home playoff game there, and crazier things have happened. For people that HAVE watched the game for a long, long time, the Bills finally pass "the eye test." They're good again. Good enough to win. But not good enough to never lose, because no team in the history of organized sport (aside from the Patriots) have mastered that feat. It's on us as a fanbase to applaud the guys we have in place, and not call for their head with every set back they face. It's tough as fans to not get into that habit, but damn. 8 weeks into the season, did you think Vrabel and the Titans would go into NE and rock the 8-0 Pats in the jaw? Edited January 6, 2020 by JohnnyGold
Like A Mofo Posted January 7, 2020 Author Posted January 7, 2020 16 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Here is a simpler way too look at it: How many seasons have Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees played combined? And how many SB appearances did they make and how many did they win? Both had elite weapons most their careers to throw to as well. These guys have been seen to be amongst the best and best ever to play and would be in most peoples top 10 all time. 34 seasons, only 2 SB appearances total (both wins). Agreed and also the Packers and Saints have had some years where they either missed the playoffs or massively underperformed. Real lesson for Bills fans here is this could easily happen with Allen and better prepare for it
MJS Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 17 hours ago, PatsFanNH said: The stat is a little skewed from the last 30 years in the AFC WHERE IT WAS Brady, Manning, or Big Ben for all but 2 years.. (and those two years were Raven SB..) make it worse it’s been Pats, Colts, Broncos. Steelers or Ravens all 20 years. So the last 30 years on roughly 33% of the AFC made the SB.. in the NFC 14 different teams have made it with only the Giants and Eagles making it twice. (Like 98%) .. AFC has been very top heavy this last decade and I see the Ravens going to the SB this year to keep the percentage down still. That's not skewed. That's just how it is.
MJS Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 16 hours ago, clayboy54 said: Fantasy Football is a major contributor to the false narrative that young fans have today. This is because FF is all about numbers. Remember it comes from the baseball game which IS all about numbers. NFL football has always been called the ultimate team game. This is diametrically opposed to fantasy football where it’s all about the individual stats. Case in-point is where so many truly believe that Josh Allen isn’t good because he doesn’t throw for 300+ yards. He’s not good for your fantasy league, but nothing about FF correlates to real NFL football. By the way, FF has created a new breed of fan. This new fan really doesn’t understand much about the game. This is too bad, because in my opinion the best part of watching NFL football is following the art of team building from the GMs, the scouting, contracts, personalities and of course, coaching. None of this means squat in fantasy football. Nowhere is this more evident than with the QB position. A good example is with Eli Manning. Nobody in their right mind would have considered Eli a great FF QB. Yet, he is a 2-time Super Bowl champion and an MVP at that. He’s likely going into the Hall of Fame. The same is true with Frank Gore. He was never a breakaway runner. He never had the flashy plays. Yet, he is legendary in that he played so many good years, has bypassed most all of the greatest RBs of all-time, and he is surely a Hall of Famer. Yet here, we read over and over how he’s a worthless player that should be cut immediately. Somehow he just keeps plugging away and gaining yards even if it’s at 3 yards a clip. For those of you who disagree, take some time and study the game of professional football in-depth. It’s a fun way to spend your free time and it’ll give you new-found perspective. After all, guys like Bill Belichick, Don Shula, Sid Gilman and Gil Brandt became great BECAUSE they are the most diligent students of the game, not because they got wrapped up in offensive production and numbers and certainly not because they are FF experts. This new breed of coach like Nagy and McVay look exciting at first glance, but they’ll more than likely either adapt by learning the whole game better, or fade into anonymity with the likes or Don Coryell, Mike Martz and Mouse Davis. We are blessed to be fans of the greatest sport in the world. It warrants taking the time to learn as much history and background of the game as we can to be better informed fans and to best enjoy the game we all love. Sounds like you know nothing about fantasy football. Josh Allen is a good fantasy QB. Fans who play fantasy football are undoubtedly more accepting of Josh Allen as a QB because of how strong a fantasy QB he is due to the dual threat nature of his game. Fantasy football isn't all about the stats. It's all about the matchups. Successfully predicting a player's weekly score requires understanding of how that player fits within their own team, how many targets they typically receive, and how their matchup is that week. You have to understand how injuries to other players affect YOUR player. And you are dead wrong (again) about Eli Manning. He was a strong fantasy football QB for multiple years, especially during his Superbowl years. Stop pretending to know anything about fantasy football. You don't. Literally everything you said about it is wrong.
clayboy54 Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 4 hours ago, MJS said: Sounds like you know nothing about fantasy football. Josh Allen is a good fantasy QB. Fans who play fantasy football are undoubtedly more accepting of Josh Allen as a QB because of how strong a fantasy QB he is due to the dual threat nature of his game. Fantasy football isn't all about the stats. It's all about the matchups. Successfully predicting a player's weekly score requires understanding of how that player fits within their own team, how many targets they typically receive, and how their matchup is that week. You have to understand how injuries to other players affect YOUR player. And you are dead wrong (again) about Eli Manning. He was a strong fantasy football QB for multiple years, especially during his Superbowl years. Stop pretending to know anything about fantasy football. You don't. Literally everything you said about it is wrong. Okay, I can accept that criticism. I don’t like FF and won’t take the time to fully understand what you said. It is however, about the individual more than about the team.
Recommended Posts