What type of number would Allen have had with better surrounding talent?

[Niagara Dude]

End of the day after watching Metcalf dominant in his first playoff game i have to wonder how much better would Allen had looked if he had huge 6'4 athletic freak to throw to all season or in his first playoff game.   Sorry Brown and Beasley are not elite talent and are very small WR'S   ,  for me the Bills failed to surround Allen with the proper tools and now you have people questioning if he is a franchise QB.

 

Get the kid elite players,  i can remember the struggles Jim Kelly had before the Bills signed James Loften.  Big receivers with speed make a difference and those throws that go over the 5"11 or 5"8 players get hauled in. This offseason the high picks and free agent money needs to be used on skilled position offensive players,  look at what KC surrounded Mahomes with and they keep adding more every season.

[Warcodered]

I'm pretty sure he'd still be #17.

[jrober38]

I'm pretty sure this line of thinking was how we drafted James Hardy instead of Desean Jackson. 

[Alphadawg7]

16 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

End of the day after watching Metcalf dominant in his first playoff game i have to wonder how much better would Allen had looked if he had huge 6'4 athletic freak to throw to all season or in his first playoff game.   Sorry Brown and Beasley are not elite talent and are very small WR'S   ,  for me the Bills failed to surround Allen with the proper tools and now you have people questioning if he is a franchise QB.

 

Get the kid elite players,  i can remember the struggles Jim Kelly had before the Bills signed James Loften.  Big receivers with speed make a difference and those throws that go over the 5"11 or 5"8 players get hauled in. This offseason the high picks and free agent money needs to be used on skilled position offensive players,  look at what KC surrounded Mahomes with and they keep adding more every season.

 

Here is my opinion:  Had we drafted DK Metcalf instead of Ford we would have won 12 games and the division and wouldn't have played Saturday.  There are multiple games where a single play from a WR with size changes the games outcome.  Both Pats games and Ravens game just for starters.  DK is the perfect WR for Allen...his speed and size with Josh's cannon would have paired nicely for a long time.  

 

Lets say with DK we sill play Houston on Sat:  I think we decisively win that game Saturday with DK on this roster instead of Ford.  

 

HOWEVER:  As much as I championed to draft DK pre-draft, I can not fault Beane's draft decisions at all.  Cody Ford was arguably the BPA when we got him in the second, most had him projected between 10 and 20 in the first round (although I had mocked him to Bills in the 2nd ?).  I would have taken DK Metcalf there personally, but also do not fault our GM for putting so much emphasis on the trenches with our first 2 picks and our FA signings.  And I think Ford will be a good player for us once moved permanently inside to Guard.  IMO his future is not at RT based on his struggles this year.  

 

BOTTOM LINE:  You can not fill every hole on a rebuilding team in one offseason.  Beane and his staff did a fantastic job building this roster up the last 2 years so far, and McD has done a great job coaching this young squad.  There is no doubt WR will be a huge priority this offseason, and will be interesting to see if Beane goes after someone like Cooper or Green in free agency, or if he is planning on being aggressive in the draft at WR.  But make no mistake about it, WR's will be added this offseason in either good vets or a highly drafted rookie at the bare minimum.  

[machine gun kelly]

26 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

End of the day after watching Metcalf dominant in his first playoff game i have to wonder how much better would Allen had looked if he had huge 6'4 athletic freak to throw to all season or in his first playoff game.   Sorry Brown and Beasley are not elite talent and are very small WR'S   ,  for me the Bills failed to surround Allen with the proper tools and now you have people questioning if he is a franchise QB.

 

Get the kid elite players,  i can remember the struggles Jim Kelly had before the Bills signed James Loften.  Big receivers with speed make a difference and those throws that go over the 5"11 or 5"8 players get hauled in. This offseason the high picks and free agent money needs to be used on skilled position offensive players,  look at what KC surrounded Mahomes with and they keep adding more every season.

ND - agreed and can only do so much in one year.  This year’s free agency and draft will give you you’re wish.  Outside of extending contracts,  we’ll be strategic in free agency, not take injury prone 32 yr old WR, but younger ascending talent, and grab some serious talent in the draft.  Allen still needs a lot of work in the following areas;  stop playing hero ball, greater ability to read coverages and scan the field faster, more of the great throws we’ve seen this year.  He’s a keeper, and yes he’ll have all the toys he needs come the end of April.  My one regret is we didn’t grab Kareem Hunt when available vs. Cleveland.  He would have been a great addition and counter to Devin.

[Rc2catch]

Just my opinion but I don’t think his numbers look much different if we are just talking strictly stats. 
The numbers/throws were there this year with our current weapons. It’s all about the execution. A 6’4 guy isn’t making a big difference. Not that he can’t just he more than likely wouldn’t have. And that’s not saying we don’t need that type of receiver either. 
Allen misses reads/throws 

Receivers dropped critical passes at times 

Offensive line occasionally just completely falls apart 

penalties. 
Daboll making us scratch our heads a ton 
These things are all drive killers. 
I will say until my grave this season was all about rhythm and sustaining drives. Maybe the 6’4 guy helps in some of those areas, but maybe the 6’4 rookie adds into those mistakes as well. 
The plays were out there to be made and it was really a perfect storm of mishaps on a team learning to play together. 
Our struggles are all sustaining drives. 
Remove even 20% of those issues mentioned above and the stats are drastically improved for Allen. Another offseason of these guys working together paired with added talent we should see a major spike in pass game stats come next season as long as Allen continues his upward trend. Another thing to factor in is we don’t have an effective screen game which equals a lot of stats for other quarterbacks and we also do not run a lot of short passing routes to running backs which is also big in other offenses and equals a lot of 4-7 yard passes. 
We can add all the stuff we want but the basics need to be fixed to be truly effective. 
I would much rather see discussions about fixing the existing issues as opposed to 20/20 hindsight of drafting metcalf after his big game yesterday. Russel Wilson had a big game too and we don’t have any TJ Graham threads yet. 
And KC didn’t add any 6’4 athletic freaks for Mahomes unless were talking the 2 big Watkins games a year. They run speedy smurfs and have a couple guys around 6’

Edited January 6, 2020 by Rc2catch

[Niagara Dude]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Here is my opinion:  Had we drafted DK Metcalf instead of Ford we would have won 12 games and the division and wouldn't have played Saturday.  There are multiple games where a single play from a WR with size changes the games outcome.  Both Pats games and Ravens game just for starters.  DK is the perfect WR for Allen...his speed and size with Josh's cannon would have paired nicely for a long time.  

 

Lets say with DK we sill play Houston on Sat:  I think we decisively win that game Saturday with DK on this roster instead of Ford.  

 

HOWEVER:  As much as I championed to draft DK pre-draft, I can not fault Beane's draft decisions at all.  Cody Ford was arguably the BPA when we got him in the second, most had him projected between 10 and 20 in the first round (although I had mocked him to Bills in the 2nd ?).  I would have taken DK Metcalf there personally, but also do not fault our GM for putting so much emphasis on the trenches with our first 2 picks and our FA signings.  And I think Ford will be a good player for us once moved permanently inside to Guard.  IMO his future is not at RT based on his struggles this year.  

 

BOTTOM LINE:  You can not fill every hole on a rebuilding team in one offseason.  Beane and his staff did a fantastic job building this roster up the last 2 years so far, and McD has done a great job coaching this young squad.  There is no doubt WR will be a huge priority this offseason, and will be interesting to see if Beane goes after someone like Cooper or Green in free agency, or if he is planning on being aggressive in the draft at WR.  But make no mistake about it, WR's will be added this offseason in either good vets or a highly drafted rookie at the bare minimum.  

I agree,  just watch him go get the ball that was thrown up for grabs

20 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

I'm pretty sure this line of thinking was how we drafted James Hardy instead of Desean Jackson. 

James Hardy was not the athletic freak that Metcalf is, 

[DuckyBoys]

if guys like DK dont make a difference than why do teams pay big bucks for elite wrs?  To say a huge fast target like DK would not have helped Josh Allen or any Buffalo qb post better stats is preposterous. All year we heard Brady whining for WR help

[Niagara Dude]

10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Here is my opinion:  Had we drafted DK Metcalf instead of Ford we would have won 12 games and the division and wouldn't have played Saturday.  There are multiple games where a single play from a WR with size changes the games outcome.  Both Pats games and Ravens game just for starters.  DK is the perfect WR for Allen...his speed and size with Josh's cannon would have paired nicely for a long time.  

 

Lets say with DK we sill play Houston on Sat:  I think we decisively win that game Saturday with DK on this roster instead of Ford.  

 

HOWEVER:  As much as I championed to draft DK pre-draft, I can not fault Beane's draft decisions at all.  Cody Ford was arguably the BPA when we got him in the second, most had him projected between 10 and 20 in the first round (although I had mocked him to Bills in the 2nd ?).  I would have taken DK Metcalf there personally, but also do not fault our GM for putting so much emphasis on the trenches with our first 2 picks and our FA signings.  And I think Ford will be a good player for us once moved permanently inside to Guard.  IMO his future is not at RT based on his struggles this year.  

 

BOTTOM LINE:  You can not fill every hole on a rebuilding team in one offseason.  Beane and his staff did a fantastic job building this roster up the last 2 years so far, and McD has done a great job coaching this young squad.  There is no doubt WR will be a huge priority this offseason, and will be interesting to see if Beane goes after someone like Cooper or Green in free agency, or if he is planning on being aggressive in the draft at WR.  But make no mistake about it, WR's will be added this offseason in either good vets or a highly drafted rookie at the bare minimum.  

I think he makes that end zone catch for TD that Duke dropped,  that extra speed/height and vertical leap is the difference between a catch and falling off your fingers.

[Lurker]

One Billion....

[Boca BIlls]

The infamous 300+ yards....

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, Niagara Dude said:

I think he makes that end zone catch for TD that Duke dropped,  that extra speed/height and vertical leap is the difference between a catch and falling off your fingers.

 

If DK is in that exact same position, its still a difficult catch.  However, if you are saying with DK's speed and size advantage combined he would have gotten there in a better position, then yes, I do fully agree.  

[BobChalmers]

44 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

End of the day after watching Metcalf dominant in his first playoff game i have to wonder how much better would Allen had looked if he had huge 6'4 athletic freak to throw to all season or in his first playoff game.   Sorry Brown and Beasley are not elite talent and are very small WR'S   ,  for me the Bills failed to surround Allen with the proper tools and now you have people questioning if he is a franchise QB.

 

Get the kid elite players,  i can remember the struggles Jim Kelly had before the Bills signed James Loften.  Big receivers with speed make a difference and those throws that go over the 5"11 or 5"8 players get hauled in. This offseason the high picks and free agent money needs to be used on skilled position offensive players,  look at what KC surrounded Mahomes with and they keep adding more every season.

 

I'll take ANY first-round talent to help him - Allen is the only #1 on the offense right now, which is insane in today's NFL.

 

I'd take an elite WR, TE, RB, or even OG/T.  Swap out a guard for a Quinton Nelson (yeah I know he's unique - but maybe someone close) and this team wins another game.  Did you see the OL being embarrassed repeatedly by the Texans' DL late game?

 

Singletary is arguably good enough at RB - but better with a better OL, and the drop off when Gore came in was pretty stark.

 

John Brown could become the league's best #2 WR - but expecting him to beat elite CBs as the main threat is a bit too much.  

 

Knox has potential but he is raw and his hands are still TBD.  He barely played in college.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by BobChalmers

[jrober38]

11 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

James Hardy was not the athletic freak that Metcalf is, 

 

DK Metcalf isn't going to be in the upcoming draft.

 

He is very unique.

 

Hardy was 6'5, 220 with sub 4.5 speed. He was tall, which is what we supposedly need to focus on most when finding a receiver, as per the opening post. 

[machine gun kelly]

27 minutes ago, jrober38 said:

 

DK Metcalf isn't going to be in the upcoming draft.

 

He is very unique.

 

Hardy was 6'5, 220 with sub 4.5 speed. He was tall, which is what we supposedly need to focus on most when finding a receiver, as per the opening post. 

I agree with you he is unique, but there are studs in this draft.

[Mango]

48 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Here is my opinion:  Had we drafted DK Metcalf instead of Ford we would have won 12 games and the division and wouldn't have played Saturday.  There are multiple games where a single play from a WR with size changes the games outcome.  Both Pats games and Ravens game just for starters.  DK is the perfect WR for Allen...his speed and size with Josh's cannon would have paired nicely for a long time.  

 

Lets say with DK we sill play Houston on Sat:  I think we decisively win that game Saturday with DK on this roster instead of Ford.  

 

HOWEVER:  As much as I championed to draft DK pre-draft, I can not fault Beane's draft decisions at all.  Cody Ford was arguably the BPA when we got him in the second, most had him projected between 10 and 20 in the first round (although I had mocked him to Bills in the 2nd ?).  I would have taken DK Metcalf there personally, but also do not fault our GM for putting so much emphasis on the trenches with our first 2 picks and our FA signings.  And I think Ford will be a good player for us once moved permanently inside to Guard.  IMO his future is not at RT based on his struggles this year.  

 

BOTTOM LINE:  You can not fill every hole on a rebuilding team in one offseason.  Beane and his staff did a fantastic job building this roster up the last 2 years so far, and McD has done a great job coaching this young squad.  There is no doubt WR will be a huge priority this offseason, and will be interesting to see if Beane goes after someone like Cooper or Green in free agency, or if he is planning on being aggressive in the draft at WR.  But make no mistake about it, WR's will be added this offseason in either good vets or a highly drafted rookie at the bare minimum.  

 

Honest question, would DK have prevented us from: 

1. Calling a 50 yard seam route to our FB on 3rd down? 

2. Throwing a 50-50 ball to your FB into double coverage on 3rd down? 

 

I don't mean that as snarky. Until we can both stop calling and throwing those plays in crucial situations, nothing personnel takes a back seat. That is a play calling AND decision making error first. Situational awareness is at about a zero from both the QB and OC in that moment and 100 other moments like it over the course of the season. 

[Chaos]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Honest question, would DK have prevented us from: 

1. Calling a 50 yard seam route to our FB on 3rd down? 

2. Throwing a 50-50 ball to your FB into double coverage on 3rd down? 

 

I don't mean that as snarky. Until we can both stop calling and throwing those plays in crucial situations, nothing personnel takes a back seat. That is a play calling AND decision making error first. Situational awareness is at about a zero from both the QB and OC in that moment and 100 other moments like it over the course of the season. 

Yes to one and two

[Mango]

44 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

I think he makes that end zone catch for TD that Duke dropped,  that extra speed/height and vertical leap is the difference between a catch and falling off your fingers.

 

That was a great throw, and a great effort for a very difficult catch. I don't blame anybody for not finishing that play. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, Mango said:

 

Honest question, would DK have prevented us from: 

1. Calling a 50 yard seam route to our FB on 3rd down? 

2. Throwing a 50-50 ball to your FB into double coverage on 3rd down? 

 

I don't mean that as snarky. Until we can both stop calling and throwing those plays in crucial situations, nothing personnel takes a back seat. That is a play calling AND decision making error first. Situational awareness is at about a zero from both the QB and OC in that moment and 100 other moments like it over the course of the season. 

 

Had we drafted DK, we would have been home on a bye week after winning 12 games and the division.  So yeah, would have prevented that

 

But yes, I do agree that Daboll was a big issue Saturday.  I can cite a lot of terrible calls.  I was getting texts from people who don't normally watch the Bills saying we had the worst play caller in the NFL.  

 

The draw attempt to Gore at end of half was probably one of the dumbest calls I have ever seen. 

[jrober38]

13 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

I agree with you he is unique, but there are studs in this draft.

 

Agreed, but none of them are 6'3, 230 with 4.3 speed.