What % did Josh improve from yr1 to yr2?

[JaCrispy]

6 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

You have to admit that Bills fans have nothing if not faith and hope.  In gigantic quantities! 

 

 

This much is true...however, recently I have wondered if the youth have more faith and hope, because they are not as jaded as some of us older guys...or do they have less faith and hope because they’ve never experienced greatness...?

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, Azucho98 said:

2018 10 TD's, 12 INT's (12 Games)

2019 20 TD's, 9 INT's (16 Games)

 

That's a nice improvement.  

 

29 total TDs, and a 21 TD to 3 turnover ratio since the NE game.  Its even better than the stats you showed which were already a nice improvement.

[Stallions]

13 hours ago, Jobot said:

After this Houston loss, and giving the benefit of the doubt following losses to Baltimore and NE (PLUS 2- pitiful drives against the Jets), it's so hard for me NOT to attribute a large portion of his perceived improvements to the easy schedule.  I think the offense as a whole was exposed during the final stretch of the year.  It all comes down to when Allen is able to 'mask' at least the deficiencies of the offense with his play... which he is currently not able to do so.

I'm not a 'troll' and agree with your assessment.  Next years schedule will make or break Josh!

[TwistofFate]

Id say an overall increase of around 10 to 12%  from last year.

 

For me that equates to a letter grade jump of one letter.  Last year I would have him ranked as a D this year he's improved to C-.

Edited January 7, 2020 by TwistofFate

[John from Riverside]

13 hours ago, Jobot said:

After this Houston loss, and giving the benefit of the doubt following losses to Baltimore and NE (PLUS 2- pitiful drives against the Jets), it's so hard for me NOT to attribute a large portion of his perceived improvements to the easy schedule.  I think the offense as a whole was exposed during the final stretch of the year.  It all comes down to when Allen is able to 'mask' at least the deficiencies of the offense with his play... which he is currently not able to do so.

The haters will hate

[Dablitzkrieg]

69%

[John from Riverside]

I am going to say 25 percent......Josh Allen improved 25 percent from year one to year 2

 

But this is not even the most important thing to me....I believe Josh Allen has not come CLOSE to his ceiling as a player.........lts say he improved ANOTHER 25 percent this next offseason........along with continuing to add pieces around him.

 

JMO

[Mango]

Probably around 10% +/- When you factor in the upgrades on that side of the ball and expected natural improvement with time in the league. While nothing on the offense is elite, we did severely upgrade hitsupporting cast. I think you have to take that into account. 

 

-Upgraded our OL from bad to average.

-Upgraded our WR Corp from bad to meh (missing a big threat. Once we get that this is a very good group)

-Singletary has been very good. Need another back. For the life of me I don’t know why Yeldon is always a scratch. 
-First full NFL offseason

-2nd year in the same offense. 
 

I think he showed many more flashes of throwing with anticipation and controlling his velocity. He took off much less. His highs are better and a bit more frequent. There are times when his delivery is very good. He walks out on the field with his balls in a wheelbarrow. 
 

He still bails from clean pockets too soon. His accuracy can be erratic. Decision making can be odd at times. His basement came back on multiple occasions. I was hoping to see less of these moments. Mechanics are still messy. 
 

He’s shown growth, and as long as he keeps showing growth, you keep sticking with him with his rookie contract and 5th year option. He needs to be a much better passer before you start taking money away from the defense, OL, WR to pay him 40M in 4 years. 

 

[Jobot]

8 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

The haters will hate

 

Sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelings.. I'll change my answer...Josh Allen is the best quarterback in the whole wide world. I vote one million percent!

 

[Thurman Kelly]

19 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

This is poorly worded. His maximum upside is the best Quarterback to ever play the game. Nobody can debate that. He has the upside to be the best ever on physical talent alone. That’s why he was a first round pick. That’s why he was dang close to being the first pick. Whether he’ll get anywhere near that is anybodies guess, but the talent is for sure there. 

 

You can say he’ll only improve 10% from now, but I disagree with that as well. 

I'd say my post was well worded, since you understood what I said perfectly.

 

Your post is poorly reasoned. His maximum upside is not the theoretical maximum upside of a first round draft pick.  Anyone would debate that.  His upside is capped by his particular skill set, including his ability to make good decisions under pressure.  He was "dang close to being the first pick" because the Bills spent a high pick on him.  That doesn't mean they were right to do so.  The Raiders spent a number one pick on JaMarcus Russell.  He proved his ability was far less than the Raiders hoped.  I doubt the coaches will be able to correct the poor decision making that Allen has demonstrated during his entire college and pro career.    Don't you think the coaches have stressed protecting the football to him?  I do.  Yet, he still scrambles without tucking the ball or even putting two hands on it.  How do you fix that?

 

He can be coached to be better than he is, and experience alone may make him better than he is, but I don't see the potential for him to be elite.  His problems are in his head.  I'm not sure how you fix that.  Can the Bills win a Super Bowl with a quarterback who isn't elite?  Seems unlikely, because I don't see how the defence could be much better than it already is.

 

We're both predicting the future, which is a hard thing to do.  Let's check back next season to see whose prediction was more accurate.

[John from Riverside]

17 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

This much is true...however, recently I have wondered if the youth have more faith and hope, because they are not as jaded as some of us older guys...or do they have less faith and hope because they’ve never experienced greatness...?

Or some of us "older guys" have faith and hope because there is reason to have it.....

[Bruce Harper]

From a Jets' fan's perspective, he made great progress.  Don't know how to put a number on it, however.

[MAJBobby]

On 1/6/2020 at 10:11 AM, whatdrought said:

Simple question really. Use stats if you're a stat person, use eye test if you're an eye test person, use PFF if you're a moron. What percentage did he improve? 

 

For me, I think he improved 30-40% as a whole. From his accuracy (not downfield, but he did improve over the course of the season here) to his pocket presence  to his decision making to his overall command of the game.

 

Still lots of growth available, but it feels to me like those ready to quit on him are ignoring the jump he took this year, and assuming that he won't make another jump next year.

 

 

 

P.S. - He did improve. If your answer is that he didn't, you're a troll and don't belong on this thread. 

And with that he improved his numbers by: 6.0% completion %, 1015 yards (granted played 3 more games), 10 more passing TDs, 3 less INTs, 21.6 rating, and 0.2 in ypa.  

 

I would love to see another similar jump in numbers at the end of next year.  If he can do that the final numbers (passing only) would look like.

 

64.8%, 4104 yards, 30 TDs, 6 INT, 6.9 ypa with a 95.3 rating - those are TOP END QB Numbers.

[billsfan1959]

6 hours ago, Jobot said:

 

Sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelings.. I'll change my answer...Josh Allen is the best quarterback in the whole wide world. I vote one million percent!

 

 

Good to see you come to your senses....

[whatdrought]

21 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

And with that he improved his numbers by: 6.0% completion %, 1015 yards (granted played 3 more games), 10 more passing TDs, 3 less INTs, 21.6 rating, and 0.2 in ypa.  

 

I would love to see another similar jump in numbers at the end of next year.  If he can do that the final numbers (passing only) would look like.

 

64.8%, 4104 yards, 30 TDs, 6 INT, 6.9 ypa with a 95.3 rating - those are TOP END QB Numbers.

 

That plus our defense remaining in the top 10 puts us squarely in the SB discussion... 

[whatdrought]

28 minutes ago, Thurman Kelly said:

I'd say my post was well worded, since you understood what I said perfectly.

 

Your post is poorly reasoned. His maximum upside is not the theoretical maximum upside of a first round draft pick.  Anyone would debate that.  His upside is capped by his particular skill set, including his ability to make good decisions under pressure.  He was "dang close to being the first pick" because the Bills spent a high pick on him.  That doesn't mean they were right to do so.  The Raiders spent a number one pick on JaMarcus Russell.  He proved his ability was far less than the Raiders hoped.  I doubt the coaches will be able to correct the poor decision making that Allen has demonstrated during his entire college and pro career.    Don't you think the coaches have stressed protecting the football to him?  I do.  Yet, he still scrambles without tucking the ball or even putting two hands on it.  How do you fix that?

 

He can be coached to be better than he is, and experience alone may make him better than he is, but I don't see the potential for him to be elite.  His problems are in his head.  I'm not sure how you fix that.  Can the Bills win a Super Bowl with a quarterback who isn't elite?  Seems unlikely, because I don't see how the defence could be much better than it already is.

 

We're both predicting the future, which is a hard thing to do.  Let's check back next season to see whose prediction was more accurate.

 

No, it wasn't well worded. I understand when my 1 year old asks for food, it doesn't mean she has a proper grasp on the English language. 

 

His upside, is all of the things that are right with him- his raw skill and ability. That's literally how the word is used throughout all scouting and player evaluation. Who he actually turns into, or his ceiling as a player, is his upside minus  his shortcomings. I'm saying, and I suppose you could argue, but I doubt anyone would be on your side with that argument, that his raw upside, or potential, is higher than any QB prospect maybe ever- between arm strength and overall athletic gifting. He and JaMarcus have that insane upside in common though Josh is a better athlete. 

 

As for his decision making, this is really a lazy, goal post moving argument. For one, I don't think Fumbles are a "decision making" issue as they are more of just a technical thing- he needs to hold the ball better. Some of that is awareness I will grant you. But the argument about Josh's "bad decision making" has always been about his interceptions. Those crazy head-scratching throws that lead to picks. Those have almost entirely been removed from his game. So he has shown he can learn. He has actively demonstrated the thing you're accusing him him incapable of. You're entitled to your opinion if you'd like it, but I just don't buy the premise. Josh is a hard worker and has shown a vast improvement with the cerebral part of his game this year. If you feel that he hasn't, that's fine. You're more than welcome to be wrong. 

 

P.s. I'm not predicting the future, I'm stating that he has improved, which is 100% true. I'm further stating that improvement begets improvement and that it would be unlikely (though not impossible) for him to stop improving. 

[MAJBobby]

13 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

That plus our defense remaining in the top 10 puts us squarely in the SB discussion... 

yep. 

[Thurman Kelly]

6 minutes ago, whatdrought said:

 

No, it wasn't well worded. I understand when my 1 year old asks for food, it doesn't mean she has a proper grasp on the English language. 

 

His upside, is all of the things that are right with him- his raw skill and ability. That's literally how the word is used throughout all scouting and player evaluation. Who he actually turns into, or his ceiling as a player, is his upside minus  his shortcomings. I'm saying, and I suppose you could argue, but I doubt anyone would be on your side with that argument, that his raw upside, or potential, is higher than any QB prospect maybe ever- between arm strength and overall athletic gifting. He and JaMarcus have that insane upside in common though Josh is a better athlete. 

 

As for his decision making, this is really a lazy, goal post moving argument. For one, I don't think Fumbles are a "decision making" issue as they are more of just a technical thing- he needs to hold the ball better. Some of that is awareness I will grant you. But the argument about Josh's "bad decision making" has always been about his interceptions. Those crazy head-scratching throws that lead to picks. Those have almost entirely been removed from his game. So he has shown he can learn. He has actively demonstrated the thing you're accusing him him incapable of. You're entitled to your opinion if you'd like it, but I just don't buy the premise. Josh is a hard worker and has shown a vast improvement with the cerebral part of his game this year. If you feel that he hasn't, that's fine. You're more than welcome to be wrong. 

 

P.s. I'm not predicting the future, I'm stating that he has improved, which is 100% true. I'm further stating that improvement begets improvement and that it would be unlikely (though not impossible) for him to stop improving. 

Comparing my post to a question asked by a 1 year old is not a credit to your logic.

 

Let's move past the semantics.  We both agree he has improved.  We disagree about how much more improvement is likely, yet you seem to recognize many of the same problems in his play that I do.  You think he's responding well to coaching.  As a way of advancing the discussion, let's talk about one particular aspect of his play - the fumbles.

 

Most fumbles by quarterbacks result from one of 3 causes:  1) Blind side hits/strip sacks that the QB could not possibly sense were coming, 2) poor pocket awareness where the QB moves himself into a position to be stripped before he's ready to throw, or 3) poor ball security on scrambles out of the pocket.  The first category is something that QBs can't do a lot about, except possibly hold the ball with 2 hands until he's ready to throw.  I'm not concerned that Allen is any worse than the average quarterback as far as his vulnerabilty to this kind of fumble is concerned.  However, in relation to the other 2 categories, his performance is well below average, and the results show this.  How do you coach a QB to have good spatial perception and timing to maintain pocket protection if he doesn't have these abilities naturally?  How do you coach someone to scramble with the ball tucked and protected with both hands if you've told him to do it, but he never remembers to do it under pressure?  If you know the answers to these questions, you should be a QB coach in the NFL, because I think you might have an answer that no one else in coaching has.  Running without securing the ball is a decision.  A bad one.

 

It's not unlike being an employer.  Every successful employer can recognize that not every one of his employees are capable of making good decisions, or even following clear instructions, under pressure.  As an employer, you try to make sure people like this don't occupy critical roles in your company. 

 

The job of QB is the most critical position in football.  He touches the ball on the vast majority of offensive downs.  He makes more decisions than any other offensive player, and those decisions mean more to the outcome of the offensive plays.

 

Why are you comfortable that Allen can make these decisions at an elite level?  I don't see the evidence you do.

[whatdrought]

8 minutes ago, Thurman Kelly said:

Comparing my post to a question asked by a 1 year old is not a credit to your logic.

 

Let's move past the semantics.  We both agree he has improved.  We disagree about how much more improvement is likely, yet you seem to recognize many of the same problems in his play that I do.  You think he's responding well to coaching.  As a way of advancing the discussion, let's talk about one particular aspect of his play - the fumbles.

 

Most fumbles by quarterbacks result from one of 3 causes:  1) Blind side hits/strip sacks that the QB could not possibly sense were coming, 2) poor pocket awareness where the QB moves himself into a position to be stripped before he's ready to throw, or 3) poor ball security on scrambles out of the pocket.  The first category is something that QBs can't do a lot about, except possibly hold the ball with 2 hands until he's ready to throw.  I'm not concerned that Allen is any worse than the average quarterback as far as his vulnerabilty to this kind of fumble is concerned.  However, in relation to the other 2 categories, his performance is well below average, and the results show this.  How do you coach a QB to have good spatial perception and timing to maintain pocket protection if he doesn't have these abilities naturally?  How do you coach someone to scramble with the ball tucked and protected with both hands if you've told him to do it, but he never remembers to do it under pressure?  If you know the answers to these questions, you should be a QB coach in the NFL, because I think you might have an answer that no one else in coaching has.  Running without securing the ball is a decision.  A bad one.

 

It's not unlike being an employer.  Every successful employer can recognize that not every one of his employees are capable of making good decisions, or even following clear instructions, under pressure.  As an employer, you try to make sure people like this don't occupy critical roles in your company. 

 

The job of QB is the most critical position in football.  He touches the ball on the vast majority of offensive downs.  He makes more decisions than any other offensive player, and those decisions mean more to the outcome of the offensive plays.

 

Why are you comfortable that Allen can make these decisions at an elite level?  I don't see the evidence you do.

 

The semantics is the entirety of our conversation. You misused the term upside which is where I entered the conversation. 

 

As for the fumbling, that's a good breakdown. The problem is that in a lot of his fumbles, he does have the ball tucked away properly, he just loses it when hit. Many NFL players struggle with fumbles and are able to be taught (and trained) how better to hold the ball and keep a grip on it. That's a trainable thing. The decision making that needs to improve in that regard is his knowledge of when to give up on a scramble. That's something he needs to be better about, No doubt about it. 

[GG]

His improvement was 3.5.   

 

Would have been higher if he had a tail.