CincyBillsFan Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, billsfan1959 said: Actually, tipped balls can have a lot to do with pressure and penetration; YAC is also about route running, separation, and ability of receivers; throw aways have just as much to do with pressure and receivers not being open. You can choose to believe all of it is because of Allen's weaknesses. that's your right. I'll choose recognize that, while Allen has his areas he needs to improve on, there are other areas of performance on offense that affect his production as well. YAC is a bit of a sore point for me because the Allen critics claim that he doesn't generate YAC because his ball placement is poor. And while you can find examples of this, every QB misses YAC opportunities by this definition. And let's not forget that YAC is also driven by breaking tackles and busting moves. With the exception of a couple of Knox epic runs how many times have our receivers or RB's actually broken tackles or busted a move after a catch? Watch how players like Kemarra & McCaffrey make the first guy miss when the ball is tossed out to them in the flat. Or how many times did Beasley or Brown or McKenzie break a tackle on a WR screen or after catching a pass downfield? And excluding Singleterry, the simple fact is that with very rare exceptions our offensive skill players do not make great catches; do not break tackles after catching the ball or make guys miss in the open field. At least not to the extent that I see the better offenses on other teams do it. Throw in that our O-line doesn't seem built to execute screen passes (2 good ones the entire season) Allen's production is better then we have any right to expect. Edited January 7, 2020 by CincyBillsFan 1
NewEraBills Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 He improved, however, he still misses some things and to me that's just a part of the maturation process and learning the position and what you are seeing. Here is an example. This guy called him a bad passer, I wouldn't say that, but I think the guy some insight on the potential of some of these plays. https://twitter.com/SethGalina/status/1214360782869282816 Granted, some of this is cherry-picking and some of it is decent analysis. JA is still my guy though.
MAJBobby Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 30 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said: YAC is a bit of a sore point for me because the Allen critics claim that he doesn't generate YAC because his ball placement is poor. And while you can find examples of this, every QB misses YAC opportunities by this definition. And let's not forget that YAC is also driven by breaking tackles and busting moves. With the exception of a couple of Knox epic runs how many times have our receivers or RB's actually broken tackles or busted a move after a catch? Watch how players like Kemarra & McCaffrey make the first guy miss when the ball is tossed out to them in the flat. Or how many times did Beasley or Brown or McKenzie break a tackle on a WR screen or after catching a pass downfield? And excluding Singleterry, the simple fact is that with very rare exceptions our offensive skill players do not make great catches; do not break tackles after catching the ball or make guys miss in the open field. At least not to the extent that I see the better offenses on other teams do it. Throw in that our O-line doesn't seem built to execute screen passes (2 good ones the entire season) Allen's production is better then we have any right to expect. Other things that limit YAC is sideline throws, and throws to WRs facing the LOS. We throw a lot of BOTH 2
2012spiller Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 23 hours ago, billsfan1959 said: Actually, tipped balls can have a lot to do with pressure and penetration; YAC is also about route running, separation, and ability of receivers; throw aways have just as much to do with pressure and receivers not being open. You can choose to believe all of it is because of Allen's weaknesses. that's your right. I'll choose recognize that, while Allen has his areas he needs to improve on, there are other areas of performance on offense that affect his production as well. We have differing opinions and I do not put all of the offensive problems on Allen. I’m not afraid to point out his flaws or that the offense is ran through the Qb so they get the most of the praise and blame. I’m not here to change your mind but I would argue YAC is play design and timing more than WR skill. For example screens and slants are designed and intended to get YAC while a curl route is not. Yes there can be bad coverage or exceptional play by a WR to get YAC on routes it’s not designed to. Tip balls normally come from a lack of pressure and penetration, not from it. Defenders normally get there hands up when they can’t get to the Qb. You’re right those items impact throwaways as well, but watching the games I feel the undesigned rollouts us to pressure versus stepping up caused a lot of throw ways. It’s early in Allen’s career but he has a lot to work on. I wish he was further ahead of where he is as a passer. Hopefully he can get his deep ball accuracy back, develop better pocket poise, and consistency with his footwork.
billsfan1959 Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, 2012spiller said: We have differing opinions and I do not put all of the offensive problems on Allen. I’m not afraid to point out his flaws or that the offense is ran through the Qb so they get the most of the praise and blame. I’m not here to change your mind but I would argue YAC is play design and timing more than WR skill. For example screens and slants are designed and intended to get YAC while a curl route is not. Yes there can be bad coverage or exceptional play by a WR to get YAC on routes it’s not designed to. Tip balls normally come from a lack of pressure and penetration, not from it. Defenders normally get there hands up when they can’t get to the Qb. You’re right those items impact throwaways as well, but watching the games I feel the undesigned rollouts us to pressure versus stepping up caused a lot of throw ways. It’s early in Allen’s career but he has a lot to work on. I wish he was further ahead of where he is as a passer. Hopefully he can get his deep ball accuracy back, develop better pocket poise, and consistency with his footwork. We do have differing opinions, and that is okay. I am not afraid to point out the flaws in Allen either, as there is a lot of room for improvement. However, it seems, with Allen, people always want to begin with his flaws and, somehow, the view of those flaws start to color every other aspect of his game - and even play to play during a game. If he misses a receiver, people begin with the assumption it was because he is inaccurate before considering any other option (i.e., the receiver ran the wrong route, or was slowed off his pace by a defender). If he takes a sack, it is because he has no pocket or game awareness before it is because an O--lineman, TE, or RB completely whiffed on a block. If he fumbles the ball while scrambling around it is because he is completely reckless with the ball before it is because a D-lineman or LB made a great play and got his hand on the ball. My point is not that Allen is never inaccurate or misses open receivers, or that he never has moments where he could show more pocket/situational awareness, or that he is never reckless with the ball, or that he doesn't sometimes show poor judgment, or that he doesn't have flaws period. My point is: That always seems to be the starting point. In YAC, you point out play design and timing of the throw - and specifically mention slants and screens. You are correct in those things being factors, and there are certainly times when Allen could be better at leading a receiver. However, why is it that we start there? Rather than considering those factors, while also considering such things as Allen is 6th in intended air yards per attempt, which means he throws deeper routes, on average than most QBs, he doesn't actually throw a lot of screens or short slants, and his receiver are 10th worst in the NFL at having separation from the defender at the time of the catch, or that play designs seem to feature a lot of sideline throws, etc. I can point out, off the top of my head, at least a dozen plays this year where, after the game, posters were on this board going on and on, ad nauseum, in their blame of Allen for being inaccurate, or exhibiting poor judgement, or for being reckless, or for some other flaw on his part. Only to find out, through a review of the game film, or the All 22, or comments by coaches and players, that Allen wasn't to blame at all. Allen came into this league with a narrative attached to him. I think his evaluation as a QB and the level of critical analyses of each and every play, on the part of many fans and the national media is done through that lens. Edited January 8, 2020 by billsfan1959 1
Mr. K Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 He has either got to stop running or learn how to hold on to the ball. The Turnovers didn't really exactly kill us during the regular season. We've seen him have multi-fumble games more than we'd like to admit. I think they if Josh gets rid of all of the fumbles even the ones he recovers the offense is improved to an above average squad.
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