Who would you rather be a fan of today?

[Buddy Hix]

7 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Speaking of not seeing the forest for the trees: what's your miracle succession plan?

There is no basis for a succession plan. Despite being fatally flawed, McD is a great leader and culture builder, he will rightfully get at least two more years as HC. I'm just saying that while our position may seem enviable to other teams, there is reason to think that our coach's limitations have already doomed us to never succeed, which is not all that enviable.

 

I think how this plays out is we miss the playoffs next year, as our schedule is way tougher, and then McD is on the hot seat the following season. I expect us to be looking for a HC in two years.

[Buffalo Boy]

1 minute ago, Xwnyer said:

I think the fact they both hot him from opposite sides actually helped him stay balanced.  To bad some bad tackling cost us.

Physics?

[GunnerBill]

56 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Who'd you rather be a fan of today? The Bills or:

 

The Patriots?

The Jets?

The Fish?

 

And that's just in our division. I'd rather be in OUR position than any of theirs.

 

OK, too small of a sample size for you? Well, how about we widen our search to the broader AFC as a whole:

 

Ravens?

Bengals?

Browns?

Steelers?

Texans?

Titans?

Colts?

Jaguars?

Chargers?

Raiders?

Broncos?

Chiefs?

 

Even on THAT list, I'd probably only want to swap places with the Chiefs, MAYBE the Ravens (based on coaching alone),  and possibly the Titans. That's it.  By my reckoning, the Bills' situation is better than TWELVE other AFC teams, which puts them in a really sweet spot at the moment. I know that spewing bile and raw emotion is all the rage these days and that logic and reason take a back seat more often than not. But if you look at the REALLY big picture, the Bills are in a pretty good place today with Beane and McDermott. Blowing all of it up would be a blunder of EPIC proportions.

 

 

I'd swap place with Houston. And this morning that is all that matters. 

 

No, people shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water but nor should they be pretending all is still coming up roses. The Bills have to enormously self critical this offseason. There is no room for sentiment.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Buddy Hix said:

There is no basis for a succession plan. Despite being fatally flawed, McD is a great leader and culture builder, he will rightfully get at least two more years as HC. I'm just saying that while our position may seem enviable to other teams, there is reason to think that our coach's limitations have already doomed us to never succeed, which is not all that enviable.

 

I think how this plays out is we miss the playoffs next year, as our schedule is way tougher, and then McD is on the hot seat the following season. I expect us to be looking for a HC in two years.

 

So you completely discount McDermott being able to grow and evolve?

[JMF2006]

1 minute ago, Buffalo Boy said:

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!!!

 

 

He stood in front of the guy and let him bounce off.

 

He didn't drill him to the turf or try to maim him and players are taught to play through the whistle and his job is to get in the opponents way.

[Buffalo Boy]

1 minute ago, Buddy Hix said:

There is no basis for a succession plan. Despite being fatally flawed, McD is a great leader and culture builder, he will rightfully get at least two more years as HC. I'm just saying that while our position may seem enviable to other teams, there is reason to think that our coach's limitations have already doomed us to never succeed, which is not all that enviable.

 

I think how this plays out is we miss the playoffs next year, as our schedule is way tougher, and then McD is on the hot seat the following season. I expect us to be looking for a HC in two years.

     Someone loves you!!!!! Don’t do it!!!! We have someone for you to talk to!!!!!!

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd swap place with Houston. And this morning that is all that matters. 

 

No, people shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water but nor should they be pretending all is still coming up roses. The Bills have to enormously self critical this offseason. There is no room for sentiment.

I'm not asking for sentiment. I'm asking for a reasonable plan if you think things are horrible.

[Buddy Hix]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

 

So you completely discount McDermott being able to grow and evolve?

Pretty much...he's the same guy who punted in OT against the Colts two years ago. But in that game we got lucky, which is the only path to victory with a coach like McD.

[Buffalo Boy]

Just now, JMF2006 said:

 

He stood in front of the guy and let him bounce off.

 

He didn't drill him to the turf or try to maim him and players are taught to play through the whistle and his job is to get in the opponents way.

     They didn’t wrap him up. That is the lesson. Form tackling by one of them with a wrap and we may be having a different discussion. Still, heat of the moment, I cast no blame. They play it 10 more times, he goes down.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Buddy Hix said:

Pretty much...he's the same guy who punted in OT against the Colts two years ago. But in that game we got lucky, which is the only path to victory with a coach like McD.

 

Sorry, but I can't buy that thinking.

[NoSaint]

8 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Ok I'll ask you the same thing: what's your succession plan?

that the alternative is ripping a bandaid that might hurt isn’t as convincing an argument as you seem to think.

 

if someone doesn’t believe in Allen or McD, it doesn’t mean they have to deliver you a slam dunk alternate path to the championship. 
 

we will see. Lots of red flags, but also some reasons to be hopeful. A lot of teams can say similar.

3 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

I'm not asking for sentiment. I'm asking for a reasonable plan if you think things are horrible.

But you’re going to shred any plan given, because you don’t believe we are walking the wrong path.

 

you aren’t asking for insight, you are asking for someone to volunteer to be a victim to your frustration 

[Buddy Hix]

1 minute ago, Buddy Hix said:

Pretty much...he's the same guy who punted in OT against the Colts two years ago. But in that game we got lucky, which is the only path to victory with a coach like McD.

I shouldn't say the only path...Beane has been pretty awesome, so I can see a scenario where our cap room and draft picks allow us to build a team that is so much better than our competition that McD can actually just bully his way to victory, which is what he wants to do.

[JMF2006]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

     They didn’t wrap him up. That is the lesson. Form tackling by one of them with a wrap and we may be having a different discussion. Still, heat of the moment, I cast no blame. They play it 10 more times, he goes down.

 

I am talking about Cody Fords block.

 

Not Watsons escape

[Buddy Hix]

2 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Sorry, but I can't buy that thinking.

You're an optimist, so I completely understand. And you could even point to McD's more aggressive approach this season as evidence that he can change. But I see yesterday as proof that when the chips are down, McD will resort to being an incompetent game manager. 

[John in Jax]

32 minutes ago, Buddy Hix said:

The blunder of epic proportions was losing to the Texans...which I blame on a coaching staff who are completely inept at managing a game.

 

While your point is appreciated, you fail to address the one glaring issue: McD has a ceiling. We have witnessed McD's inability to competently manage a game all too often, with yesterday being the peak of that mountain by being outcoached by Bill O'Brien (omg!). If you want to start threads like this then you have to address the reality of our situation, that McD is fatally flawed. With McD at the helm, the Bills will have to overcome his incompetence every season, it won't be enough to simply be better than other teams (as we saw yesterday). The Bills will have to be better and get lucky....We are not is some great situation relative to other teams. We have an inept coach who will only succeed in spite of himself. 

 

Next year, when the luck of having a cupcake schedule is gone, we will not be singing the praises of a guy who can't see the forest through the trees.

Great post, and I agree 100%. It seems pretty clear too. Sadly, too many people in here have on their red/blue blinders. LOL

Edited January 5, 2020 by John in Jax

[billsfan1959]

17 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd swap place with Houston. And this morning that is all that matters. 

 

No, people shouldn't be throwing the baby out with the bath water but nor should they be pretending all is still coming up roses. The Bills have to enormously self critical this offseason. There is no room for sentiment.

 

I really don't believe the vast majority of posters believe everything is coming up roses on the heels of the loss last night. We all respond in our own ways. A lot of us choose to focus on the positive aspects of where this franchise stands at the moment. It is not burying our heads in the sand or turning a blind eye to what needs to be fixed or improved. 

 

As far as the front office, the coaching staff, and the players go, I have seen enough to know that, regardless of the outcome of the post season, every one of them would go into the off season being enormously self critical in a productive, evaluative way. That is who they are. Everyone laughs at the "culture" idea; however, that is what it breeds: Introspection and holding one's self accountable.

Edited January 5, 2020 by billsfan1959

[Rock'em Sock'em]

2 minutes ago, John in Jax said:

Next year, when the luck of having a cupcake schedule is gone, we will not be singing the praises of a guy who can't see the forest through the trees.

After a complete rebuild, the Bills took a step this year.  They have capital to get better players.  Let's see if they can take another step next year and make something happen.  Difficult schedule next year aside, the next step is to win the division and a playoff game.  And the division appears to be open.

[Seoulofstone]

 McD is a defensive coach. He will always be conservative in his overall approach, even if the offense improves greatly. Anyone who dubs him inept doesn't understand the meaning of that word. He has one of the best defences in the league, without a Aaron Donald or Khalil Mack. What he has achieved is greater than the sum of the parts.

 

  I get that people want their team to play like Kyle Shanahan's. Just a reminder that his high risk attacking strategy led to the greatest comeback in Superbowl history for his opponents. His first two seasons in SF with a roster loaded with high 1st round picks on D was abysmal. 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

I'm not asking for sentiment. I'm asking for a reasonable plan if you think things are horrible.

 

I don't think things are horrible, but you want a reasonable plan? Okay... here is mine:

 

- it starts where it always starts - with the Quarterback. Josh Allen took a step this year and there were times, including the first half yesterday, when he looked like a bona fide franchise Quarterback. But if the Josh Allen we saw this year is who Josh Allen is it isn't good enough. They need him to take another step next year. They need 2019 Josh Allen which was passable NFL starter level to be improved upon in 2020. 

- to help that evaluation in Josh's critical 3rd year you have to remove the excuses. That starts with continuing to improve at receiver. The Bills have two decent starters and in McKenzie a decent role player with a valuable skill set. They need as a minimum one true difference maker. 

- they have to improve at Right Tackle. If they stubbornly insist that Ford will grow into that role then they will sink our offensive line. He has to move inside and become a reclamation project at guard which was always where most of us felt he best fit. They then have to find a RT who is an upgrade on Ty and Cody immediately. Not a guy who might be in 3 years. A guy who is. And is from day 1 of OTAs. 

- they have to get better at Tight End. I like Dawson Knox. I think there is potential there. But he missed a critical block that would have won us the game yesterday he has had too many drops and he is as advertised - very raw. If we had an established vet QB I'd roll with Knox as my starter and continue to let him learn in the heat of battle but 2020 is the critical year for Allen. I need to give him a better starter and carve out Knox a specific role on the offense as a spot player. 

- to do all of this and get impact players at those w critical spots they need to be willing to overpay in Free Agency if that is what it takes. You have to know before the 5th year option decision at the end of next season whether your QB is a guy you are minded to commit the big $$s to. If that costs you some money now then so be it. 

- the defense has been really consistent and is very good. But it can still get better. They need an edge rusher who makes immediate impact too. Get the dollars out. This might cost. 

- they need to get over the nice story with Levi Wallace and they need to either bring back Kevin Johnson and let him genuinely compete to start or bring in other competition. 

- they need to get tough with Daboll. They need to tell him he is coaching for his job in 2020 and it is about establishing an identity first and foremost. 

- they need to make hard nosed business decisions on guys they brought onto the roster. Trent Murphy, Star, Kroft and Di Marco are all underperforming their contracts. They need to go. No sentimental extensions for Frank Gore. Proper competition for Matt Barkley and Steve Hauschka. 

 

I remain supportive of McDermott, relatively positive on Beane and hopeful on Allen. But they need to be properly self critical this offseason. They are not "one more push" away. They are still 3 or 4 big moves from where they need to be and that is IF Josh is eventually the guy. But they need to stop hedging their bets. You picked Josh. You say you believe in him. Okay it is time for chips in the table. Your whole regime now lives or dies with the career of Josh Allen and that is unavoidable. There is no other approach now. It has to be all in. 

[stosh64]

53 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

 

I said in another thread that all season I have felt talent and experience wise we were not 'there' yet.  Remember how many rookie and 2nd year starters we have.

Our HC is still learning OTJ.

There are many places we need to upgrade, that has been known all season, WR, DE/Edge, OL, RB, etc...

Many predicted us missing the playoffs, yada yada.

You may say we overachieved for the level of talent/experience we have here.  Our Defensive QB is 21, that's Twenty One years old... He may not even be completely finished growing yet.

 

All that said yesterday was tough to watch.  Allen looked like he had a stroke at some point in the 3rd Q.  Our receivers showed just how lacking they are when compared to other elite WR's, our OL was horrendous at times, tackling, I could go on and on.

Coaching was my biggest concern yesterday.  Daboll has been a thorn in my side all year, I will be happy if he is signed by another team.

I had hoped for considerable growth from McDermott compared to last year, I didn't see it.  I almost always love the way he runs the D but he needs to hire an offensive specialist and let him do his thing.  From personnel to play calling to game management.  McD's ultra conservative O is killing us IMHO.  His commitment to certain players, we all know who they are, is baffling.  His time management, especially late in games is atrocious.

 

Look, I am a HUGE homer, especially when it comes to Allen, But yesterday concerned me a LOT!  I get why people are pissed off, they should be after what we watched.

That being said I still have high hopes for this team going forward.  If you would have told me back in Aug. where we would have ended up this season I would have said yep, sounds about right, maybe even a little better than I expected.

I still look forward to what Beane can to for this team this off season between FA/draft.  I hope to see McD do a lot of self reflection and focus the 'process' on himself.

I pray Beane is a level headed influence on McD and can tell him what most of us see as his shortcomings.  I will lose no sleep if Daboll is lost/let go.

 

I still have high hopes that this team learns from that HOT MESS yesterday, I will give them my full support next year.  If problems we KNOW about still persist at the end of next year I may join the pitch fork brigade though...