The fair catch, that wasn't.

[B-Large]

Where the ruleS are more like guidelines, and subjective common sense prevails...

 

no wonder the NFL is losing viewership. 

2 minutes ago, Chandemonium said:

BS call. Certainly everyone knows that his intent was to give himself up, but he never actually did it. It was a mental mistake that the Bills recognized and capitalized on, only to have points taken off the board because apparently now the game is selectively officiated based on subjective interpretations of what players meant to do, rather than what actually happens on the field. As bad as I would have felt for the guy for making such a costly and boneheaded mistake, that shouldn’t mean you can just ignore the rules and rob the other team in the process.

it’s a call that goes against the Bills, of that i have zero doubt.  It’s like PI reviews being a judgement call now.... it’s either an infraction or it’s not... there really isn’t any inferring, it is what it is... 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Again, if you go exactly by the rulebook, there's holding every play and pass interference on most if not all pass plays. The rulebook is applied with discretion.

 

IMO this has happened a dozen times this year, minimum, and each time was treated as giving it up, and nobody said a word. I'm not willing to go looking through the whole year for it, about a minor argument. And this is a minor argument. And you'd have to look because when it's happened before, the ref simply grabbed the ball, blew the whistle and marched the ball to the 25 and nobody said a damn thing. I could be wrong, but I know that early in the year several times I thought, "Isn't that a live ball?" And it never was. And so I got it that the refs weren't enforcing that rule very strictly. The thing that made this play different is that the ref dodged the ball. The Bills saw that and kept running. That's what they're taught, I think is if you're not sure keep running till you hear whistles.

 

If the refs are going to make this call, do it early in the year so everyone knows you're serious. The last thing you do is not apply it during the season and then during the playoff suddenly break the trend and apply it.

 

He tossed the ball to the ref and walked away. No way this could have been a fake. If a fake happened, yeah, I suspect at that point the refs would call it by the book and if no whistle was blown at any point, the defenses would keep running. But the play would've been called based on whether the whistle was blown.

I can’t ever remember seeing the KO return man catch the ball and casually flip it to the ref without downing it.  If you’re right though, then why did this particular ref decide, on this play,  to treat the flip from the return man like a live ball and refuse to catch it, notwithstanding that return men “do it all the time” without consequence?   Did he just decide on the spot to screw the Texans?

 

To me—and under the rules—it’s no different than if a punt returner fielded a punt without signaling a fair catch and then flipped the ball to the ref without attempting to advance it.  Clear fumble and a bonehead play by the return man.

Edited January 5, 2020 by mannc

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

50 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You don’t make a call like that in a playoff game when it hasn’t been made all year.  Just like the crackback call; haven’t seen that either

You’d think one of the three or four calls that went against us, that were borderline, might have gone our way. Just one.  Kickoff f-up.  3rd and 18.  Hopkins first down that was short.  3rd and 18 delay of game.  Crack back.  All of them can happen in any game, but to happen in 38 minutes of football and be on the wrong side each time....what are the odds?

[oldmanfan]

3 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

You’d think one of the three or four calls that went against us, that were borderline, might have gone our way. Just one.  Kickoff f-up.  3rd and 18.  Hopkins first down that was short.  3rd and 18 delay of game.  Crack back.  All of them can happen in any game, but to happen in 38 minutes of football and be on the wrong side each time....what are the odds?

Most egregious one to me was the delay of game that should have been called on Watson's big play.  I know folks say what you see on TV isn't necessarily the time on the field, but it was clearly a late snap.

 

Regardless of the penalties called or not or not, we had opportunities.  Josh's fumble hurt, Brown forgetting how to use his feet, the defense folding when we really needed it, play calling that left Singletary running out of the game the second half and OT.  Lot of reasons.

Edited January 5, 2020 by oldmanfan

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Again, if you go exactly by the rulebook, there's holding every play and pass interference on most if not all pass plays. The rulebook is applied with discretion.

 

IMO this has happened a dozen times this year, minimum, and each time was treated as giving it up, and nobody said a word. I'm not willing to go looking through the whole year for it, about a minor argument. And this is a minor argument. And you'd have to look because when it's happened before, the ref simply grabbed the ball, blew the whistle and marched the ball to the 25 and nobody said a damn thing. I could be wrong, but I know that early in the year several times I thought, "Isn't that a live ball?" And it never was. And so I got it that the refs weren't enforcing that rule very strictly. The thing that made this play different is that the ref dodged the ball. The Bills saw that and kept running. That's what they're taught, I think is if you're not sure keep running till you hear whistles.

 

If the refs are going to make this call, do it early in the year so everyone knows you're serious. The last thing you do is not apply it during the season and then during the playoff suddenly break the trend and apply it.

 

He tossed the ball to the ref and walked away. No way this could have been a fake. If a fake happened, yeah, I suspect at that point the refs would call it by the book and if no whistle was blown at any point, the defenses would keep running. But the play would've been called based on whether the whistle was blown.

does it give you pause that an official working his 21st(?) game of the season thought this was unique behavior for a returner in games he’s called?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

9 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Most egregious one to me was the delay of game that should have been called on Watson's big play.  I know folks say what you see on TV isn't necessarily the time on the field, but it was clearly a late snap.

 

Regardless of the penalties called or not or not, we had opportunities.  Josh's fumble hurt, Brown forgetting how to use his feet, the defense folding when we really needed it, play calling that left Singletary running out of the game the second half and OT.  Lot of reasons.

Agreed. Add to that the “top 5” defense that surrendered 19 points after a lights out 3 quarter effort. 16 points beats NE yesterday, and Tennessee absent the pick six with 20 seconds to go (and NE lost 2 of its last 3 games, the only win coming during Brady’s surprise resurrection as a pinpoint passer with incredible accuracy).  
 

The offensive plays that I woke up thinking about today were the Qb sweep where the blocking broke down, and that fumble where JA was about to gallop for about 15 yards. Ugh. 

[Dirtyd415]

7 hours ago, DCOrange said:

An intentional forward moving fumble is an illegal forward pass and is dead the second it hits the ground so no TD. 

Only in the field of play, not in the end zones 

[Kmart128]

4 minutes ago, Dirtyd415 said:

Only in the field of play, not in the end zones 

 

No it would have been ruled dead but since infraction occured in endzone it would have been ruled a safety

[SoCal Deek]

Didn’t the Bills do the exact same thing a couple of years ago, or was it last year, when they let the kickoff sit there in the end zone against the Jets? We didn’t get any love from the NFL! They let it stand.

[Dirtyd415]

2 minutes ago, Kmart128 said:

 

No it would have been ruled dead but since infraction occured in endzone it would have been ruled a safety

Not true...let’s say running back received a handoff 5 yards deep in the end zone, proceeds to fumble the ball forward towards the goal line.  Defender picks it up, it’s a touchdown, not a dead ball/safety.

[Orlando Buffalo]

I am actually curious if anyone had any video of another team doing this during season? I do believe his intentions were to give himself up but I think literally every time I have seen it before player actually knelt or not played ball.

[Kmart128]

4 minutes ago, Dirtyd415 said:

Not true...let’s say running back received a handoff 5 yards deep in the end zone, proceeds to fumble the ball forward towards the goal line.  Defender picks it up, it’s a touchdown, not a dead ball/safety.

 

But he didnt fumble it forward. There is a difference between that because the RB never had complete control and a RB wouldnt be motioning his hand forward. The returner tossed the ball forward to an official... so hand was moving forward. Would have been treated the same as a forward lateral or a like one of those pitch the ball forward plays that teams do now to prevent fumbles. Thats why at why at one point head ref threw his flag on the ground and i heard him talking to other refs live that said "I have an illegal forward pass"

 

The big difference is that his hand was noving forward intentionally so by rule its a forward lateral and a penalty

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I am actually curious if anyone had any video of another team doing this during season? I do believe his intentions were to give himself up but I think literally every time I have seen it before player actually knelt or not played ball.

 

Only time i see this happen is when they catch the ball but there feet were out of bounds. Other than that they kneel it or just let it go

[SoCal Deek]

The appropriate analogy is the player who intentionally drops the ball before crossing the goal line. Everyone knows he wasn’t trying to fumble but the rule book shows no mercy....ever! This should’ve been a Bills touchdown. Players are not spared by boneheaded decisions....ever!

[DCOrange]

17 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Didn’t the Bills do the exact same thing a couple of years ago, or was it last year, when they let the kickoff sit there in the end zone against the Jets? We didn’t get any love from the NFL! They let it stand.

Yes. And ironically, they changed the rule after the fact so if we made that mistake again today, it would be a touchback. 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, DCOrange said:

Yes. And ironically, they changed the rule after the fact so if we made that mistake again today, it would be a touchback. 

Is that true? I didn’t actually know that. Interesting. I remember watching that game and screaming at the TV! One of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

The more I think about this play the more I believe it should have been a bills touchdown

 

How many times a season does a returner take a few slow/walking steps and then take off out of the end zone?

 

It was a mental mistake and in the playoffs keeping calm and not making mental mistakes is huge

 

Edit: other plays that this in my opinion puts into an even greyer zone - fake kneels(saw this against the ravens) fake spikes, as someone mentioned earlier dropping the ball before crossing the goal line(watkins, demean Jackson)

Edited January 5, 2020 by Cheektowaga Chad

[DCOrange]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

Is that true? I didn’t actually know that. Interesting. I remember watching that game and screaming at the TV! One of the dumbest things I’ve ever seen. 

Yes, if the ball hits the end zone now, it’s a touchback just like it is on punts. That’s why the Texans kick returner stopped catching the kicks after his mistake. If you don’t intend to return the kick, there’s no reason to even catch the ball anymore. Only bad things can come from it. 

[Kmart128]

5 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Yes. And ironically, they changed the rule after the fact so if we made that mistake again today, it would be a touchback. 

This is incorrect. You are thinking of the Jets and Bills kick off. That wouldnt be a touchback today. On kickoffs if the ball lands in the field of play and rolls into endzone its still considered a live ball. Its like an onside kick. However if ball travels the entire way into the air and land into the endzone then its a automatic touchback. In that Bills and Jets play the ball landed in play and rolled into the endzone. Mile Gillislee tracked it down but didnt recover it. Had he... he would have been tackled and gotten a safety but since he let it go the Jets got a TD instead.

[Turk71]

15 minutes ago, Kmart128 said:

 

But he didnt fumble it forward. There is a difference between that because the RB never had complete control and a RB wouldnt be motioning his hand forward. The returner tossed the ball forward to an official... so hand was moving forward. Would have been treated the same as a forward lateral or a like one of those pitch the ball forward plays that teams do now to prevent fumbles. Thats why at why at one point head ref threw his flag on the ground and i heard him talking to other refs live that said "I have an illegal forward pass"

 

The big difference is that his hand was noving forward intentionally so by rule its a forward lateral and a penalty

 

Only time i see this happen is when they catch the ball but there feet were out of bounds. Other than that they kneel it or just let it go

Garbage. Fumbles go forward backward or sideways, a live ball is a live ball. Forward lateral is to a teammate.

[jlgarsh]

Serious question:  can the Bills file a protest/Grievance?  It might not get reversed but it was a disgusting display of the head referee getting overturned