Bermuda Triangle Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 53 minutes ago, mannc said: Great. I can’t wait for the apology from the league. the officiating in this league is such a joke.
bbb Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said: Apparently, the men in black can overrule any official rule. And call it common sense. Since when did common sense have anything to do with NFL rules. How much common sense was there in the tuck rule? 2
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 ‘Common sense’ is pretty rich coming from a league that took the better part of a decade to figure out what a catch is 1 1
auburnbillsbacker Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 Was the Cody Ford 15 yard penalty at the end of the game the right call? It looked like a legit block to me as the defender was making his way back to Allen. If feel like that play cost us the game with either Ford or the refs at fault.
Scott7975 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 3 hours ago, Shaw66 said: Yes, the Officials Took the Game Away from the Bills Yes, you have to win the game on the field, but the game is supposed to be officiated in a way that gives each team a fair chance to win. That did not happen in the Bills 22-19 overtime loss at Houston in the wildcard playoff round of the 2019 season. The Bills were leading 13-0 and kicked off to open the second half. Houston’s kick returner caught the ball in the end zone and made no attempt to run. The official in the end zone continued to watch him, waiting for him either to begin running or to give himself and take the touchback. The returner did neither. Instead, he tossed the ball on the ground in the end zone. The Bills picked up the ball, and the official signaled touchdown. After discussion, the referee ruled that the kick returner “intended” to give himself up and that therefore the Texans were entitled to the touchback. The ruling has no support whatsoever in the rules of football. The “intentions” of a player are not relevant, and the player’s ignorance of the rules are not relevant. If they were, the personal foul called against Cody Ford in overtime that cost the Bills a shot at a game winning field goal should have been overturned. After all, either Ford didn’t know the rule or didn’t intend to violate it, so why should the Bills be penalized for what their player did when Houston wasn’t? Here’s the relevant part of the rule: Dead Ball Article 1: Dead Ball Declared. An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended: (e) when a runner is out of bounds, or declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance; That’s the rule. Unless and until the runner does what the rule says, the ball is not dead. He didn’t fall to the ground and he didn’t kneel, and the official properly waited for him. The runner chose to drop the ball to the ground. Did the runner intend to take a touchback? Almost certainly he did, but the rule doesn’t say the ball is dead when he drops the ball on the ground, and it doesn’t say the ball is dead when the running back intends for it to be dead. It was a live ball. When the Bills recovered, the official properly signaled touchdown. There’s an obvious and instructive parallel. Until recently, the rule on kickoffs had been that the ball is a free ball after the kick once it traveled ten yards. A ball kicked all the way to the end zone could be recovered by the kicking team for a touchdown. The recent rule change limited the kicking team to recovering the ball in the field of play, but once the ball reaches the end zone a touchback will be declared unless the return man touches it. Before the rule change, every few years we would see a kick returner who didn’t understand the rules simply let the ball come to rest in the end zone, assuming his team would get a touchback. If the kicking team recovered it, it was a touchdown. I do not believe there ever was such a situation in an NFL game when the officials declared no touchdown because the returner didn’t know the rule or “intended” to take the touchback. His knowledge of the rules or his intention were irrelevant. It was an egregious mistake by the kick returner, and it cost his team six points. What did kick returners do before the rule change? They caught the ball and took a knee. Everyone knew that. The situation in the Bills game was identical. If the kick returner wanted to give himself up, he had to take a knee. The official looked at him as if to say “hey, are you going to take a knee?” He didn’t. He dropped the ball. That’s a fumble. The Bills recovered. That’s a touchdown. There was no ambiguity. All that happened is that the officials decided it would be unfortunate to penalize an ignorant player. When did that become a rule? How about a guy wearing number 72 coming into the game and, not knowing the rule, does not tell the officials that he will line up on the end of the line. When he catches the touchdown pass, do the officials award the touchdown because the player didn’t know he was supposed to check in or because he “intended” to? Of course not. Ignorance of the rules does not excuse players’ actions on the field. This wasn’t a case where the official missed something. The play was completely in the open; everyone could see what happened, and everyone could see that the player did not give himself up in accordance with the rules. The official didn’t misunderstand what was happening; he did not whistle the ball dead because the ball wasn’t dead. It was a live ball, lying on the field for anyone to recover. The Bills recovered it. That referee should not be permitted to officiate another NFL game. Best post ever and absolutely correct. 1
Bermuda Triangle Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, auburnbillsbacker said: Was the Cody Ford 15 yard penalty at the end of the game the right call? It looked like a legit block to me as the defender was making his way back to Allen. If feel like that play cost us the game with either Ford or the refs at fault. Mike Pereira said that it was a bogus call. 2
Scott7975 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, DCOrange said: An intentional forward moving fumble is an illegal forward pass and is dead the second it hits the ground so no TD. ah yeah. You are right I think.
Kevbeau Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 2 hours ago, mannc said: The ref knew right away too, because he declined to catch the ball when the returner tossed it to him. He was watching to see if the return man signaled a fair catch, and when he didn’t see it, he treated it as a live ball, as the rule requires. In the replay you can clearly see him signal the returner and back off as the returner flips him the ball
Buftex Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 7 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said: I get this and understand but little things matter. He made a mental error and he got a pass. I know, it sounds like sour grapes, and I hate being one to blame officials for a loss....god knows the Bills did plenty to shoot themselves in the foot in the last 20 minutes...but I so agree with this. We always hear the experts raving about certain players "situational awareness". The laud Belechik for knowing the rules, and taking advantage of them...so whey the ***** have the rules that define a fair catch, if the players don't have to actually adhere to them? I have been watching football for 45 years or so, and it is only in very recent years that this whole notion of a player "giving himself up" has become a thing... sure, it would have been a cheap touchdown, because of somebodys mental blunder....but how many times have we come out on the wrong end of these kind of things? Nobody says "well, it is just common sense that Allen didn't mean to fumble the ball, so it is not really a fumble". It is actually pretty infuriating....and the way the announcers laughed it off as if it was nuts to think a guy is expected to follow the actual rules of the game... sorry, after all these years, I don't know how many more "miracles" I can take! 1
John Adams Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 It was a tough overrule. If he did the toss and then picked it up and ran for a TD it would have been a brilliant trick play Belichick style. I That is what I thought happened when the crowd noise rose and the announcers cut off the sideline reporter.
Thurman#1 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, peterpan said: I'm sorry, but no he didn't. By rule, the only way to clearly give yourself up, is by calling fair catch, or knelling. I guess he could have laid down and curled up in a ball as well. By rule, he fumbled. Yeah? Giving yourself up is in the rulebook, so your assertion is questionable. But say you're right ... by rule there's holding and pass interference on every single play. The rules are selectively enforced, and that's a good thing. My impression is we've seen that kind of thing before this season and the refs just normally accept it. I guess I could be wrong about that, but guys are routinely so very casual about this that I just don't think it's exceptional. Edited January 5, 2020 by Thurman#1
Turk71 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 8 hours ago, BuffaloBillsGospel said: Because he clearly gave himself up and that would have been the most horrendous call in the history of the sport, just my opinion though. In what way is it different from a guy running in all alone dropping the ball just before crossing the goal line. Everybody knows he was about to score and no one can stop him, just give it to him, right? Ridiculous that another team would win because of such a technicality. 6 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Yeah? Giving yourself up is in the rulebook, so your assertion is questionable. But say you're right ... by rule there's holding and pass interference on every single play. The rules are selectively enforced, and that's a good thing. If the rules were interpreted that way all through the season, this would have happened three or four times in the first couple of weeks and then never again. Not enforcing it through the season and then enforcing it in the playoffs would make absolutely no sense whatsoever. This happened during the season? When? 2
PolishPrince Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Yeah? Giving yourself up is in the rulebook, so your assertion is questionable. But say you're right ... by rule there's holding and pass interference on every single play. The rules are selectively enforced, and that's a good thing. My impression is we've seen that kind of thing before this season and the refs just normally accept it. I guess I could be wrong about that, but guys are routinely so very casual about this that I just don't think it's exceptional. 'giving yourself up is in the rule book" quote it. Because you are flat wrong. Rulebook says you must go to ground, ball is kicked OB/uprights in endzone, or your wave fair catch OVER THE HEAD. the KR did NONE OF THIS. Neutral fans in reddit.com/NFL are mostly shocked the Bills didnt get the call on this. Regardless of "common sense." If you dont follow rulebook, its on you. So next Kick return, maybe KR'ers should walk ball 2 steps. If kickoff teams jog and give up - run it 40+ yards since you didnt give yourself up, just faked walking. If Kickoff teams dont lay off, just nee at top of endzone.....Maybe we should start guessing on all PR if a returner meant to fair catch or not Edited January 5, 2020 by PolishPrince
Thurman#1 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, auburnbillsbacker said: Was the Cody Ford 15 yard penalty at the end of the game the right call? It looked like a legit block to me as the defender was making his way back to Allen. If feel like that play cost us the game with either Ford or the refs at fault. 3 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said: Mike Pereira said that it was a bogus call. What killed me was the play before, 2nd and 9, where Allen had Beasley wide open but threw it short and didn't give him a chance at it. Beasley was on the 39 and had a great chance to probably make the first down if the ball hits him in stride. He could at least have made the 35 or so even if the defender makes a great play to prevent the first down, making it 3rd and maybe two. And I don't think that defender makes the play. He was well inside of Beasley. That would probably have been the ballgame. Anyway, I just went back and listened and Pereira didn't say that was a bogus call. Didn't say anything like that, actually. The only comment by anybody on whether it was a deserved call was when someone said, "Think it might be an illegal blindside block, a lineman is coming back towards that goal line, initiating force with the shoulder." I thought it was Pereira, but whoever it was, it wasn't Booger or Tessitore. At least on the broadcast, that was all that was said about it. Edited January 5, 2020 by Thurman#1
Thurman#1 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 44 minutes ago, PolishPrince said: 'giving yourself up is in the rule book" quote it. Because you are flat wrong. Rulebook says you must go to ground, ball is kicked OB/uprights in endzone, or your wave fair catch OVER THE HEAD. the KR did NONE OF THIS. Neutral fans in reddit.com/NFL are mostly shocked the Bills didnt get the call on this. Regardless of "common sense." If you dont follow rulebook, its on you. So next Kick return, maybe KR'ers should walk ball 2 steps. If kickoff teams jog and give up - run it 40+ yards since you didnt give yourself up, just faked walking. If Kickoff teams dont lay off, just nee at top of endzone.....Maybe we should start guessing on all PR if a returner meant to fair catch or not Again, if you go exactly by the rulebook, there's holding every play and pass interference on most if not all pass plays. The rulebook is applied with discretion. IMO this has happened a dozen times this year, minimum, and each time was treated as giving it up, and nobody said a word. I'm not willing to go looking through the whole year for it, about a minor argument. And this is a minor argument. And you'd have to look because when it's happened before, the ref simply grabbed the ball, blew the whistle and marched the ball to the 25 and nobody said a damn thing. I could be wrong, but I know that early in the year several times I thought, "Isn't that a live ball?" And it never was. And so I got it that the refs weren't enforcing that rule very strictly. The thing that made this play different is that the ref dodged the ball. The Bills saw that and kept running. That's what they're taught, I think is if you're not sure keep running till you hear whistles. If the refs are going to make this call, do it early in the year so everyone knows you're serious. The last thing you do is not apply it during the season and then during the playoff suddenly break the trend and apply it. He tossed the ball to the ref and walked away. No way this could have been a fake. If a fake happened, yeah, I suspect at that point the refs would call it by the book and if no whistle was blown at any point, the defenses would keep running. But the play would've been called based on whether the whistle was blown. Edited January 5, 2020 by Thurman#1
PetermansRedemption Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 34 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Again, if you go exactly by the rulebook, there's holding every play and pass interference on most if not all pass plays. The rulebook is applied with discretion. IMO this has happened a dozen times this year, minimum, and each time was treated as giving it up, and nobody said a word. I'm not willing to go looking through the whole year for it, about a minor argument. And this is a minor argument. And you'd have to look because when it's happened before, the ref simply grabbed the ball, blew the whistle and marched the ball to the 25 and nobody said a damn thing. I could be wrong, but I know that early in the year several times I thought, "Isn't that a live ball?" And it never was. And so I got it that the refs weren't enforcing that rule very strictly. The thing that made this play different is that the ref dodged the ball. The Bills saw that and kept running. That's what they're taught, I think is if you're not sure keep running till you hear whistles. If the refs are going to make this call, do it early in the year so everyone knows you're serious. The last thing you do is not apply it during the season and then during the playoff suddenly break the trend and apply it. He tossed the ball to the ref and walked away. No way this could have been a fake. If a fake happened, yeah, I suspect at that point the refs would call it by the book and if no whistle was blown at any point, the defenses would keep running. But the play would've been called based on whether the whistle was blown. A lot of people have been using that same line in this thread. “It is has happened a ton of times this year.” I am still waiting on even one actual example. Just because you think you have seen that exact play, doesn’t mean you have. Maybe it’s because you weren’t watching for it. But now you will. And you will see. Every single kick returner knows for take a knee or not touch the ball. It’s a simple play that isn’t paid attention to because it’s always done right.
oldmanfan Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 You don’t make a call like that in a playoff game when it hasn’t been made all year. Just like the crackback call; haven’t seen that either
thewookie1 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 For those who think this happens all the time I believe you are forgetting the exact course of events. Typically, if a player tells his blockers not to worry the KR will just allow the ball to hit the ground in the endzone and bounce out. The key difference between this play and the vast majority was that he called off his blockers, never signaled a fair catch, and then caught the ball. The KR then proceeds to take two steps forward and toss the ball at the ref. In the end the KR gave mixed signals and passed it forward which should of resulted in a Safety and Bills ball. Instead they bailed out the Texans KR thanks to "common sense" which is never used during the season as a free pass on stupidity.
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 Guess on the victory formation the QB does not have to kneel, just flip the ball to ref??? BS call as what if our guys stopped playing and he took off. His signal was for his blockers, not a legal aid to officials. BS call
Chandemonium Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 BS call. Certainly everyone knows that his intent was to give himself up, but he never actually did it. It was a mental mistake that the Bills recognized and capitalized on, only to have points taken off the board because apparently now the game is selectively officiated based on subjective interpretations of what players meant to do, rather than what actually happens on the field. As bad as I would have felt for the guy for making such a costly and boneheaded mistake, that shouldn’t mean you can just ignore the rules and rob the other team in the process.
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