Rochesterfan Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, bbb said: Awesome. So you're the only one agreeing with McBride and it's because you are using his own example, which proves the opposite - the player caught the ball. It didn't hit the ground until after. I am not responding to McBride at all - read what I was responding to - the Bills/Jets kickoff from 2 years ago that was being used as a reference. I do tend to agree that I believe I have seen guys flip back kickoffs without kneeling, but I do not know what agreement or signals were in place.
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 9 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said: The rule still requires a knee once the player catches the ball. Correct. Just like the rule still requires the QB’s knee to hit the ground on a kneel down or the ball to hit the ground on a spike.
row_33 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 During owners meetings it will be decided that because of the whining of some fans, that if the Bills do this ever going forward it will be a TD against them
GoBills808 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, row_33 said: During owners meetings it will be decided that because of the whining of some fans, that if the Bills do this ever going forward it will be a TD against them This is a legitimate discussion of the rules of the game and thus far your only contributions are insults and being wrong. 2
Augie Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 What I know for CERTAIN is......................... I picked a very bad time to step out of the room.
Shaw66 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, row_33 said: no it doesn’t any action of dismissing a run back is enough, by word or hand wave or telling the official you will not be coming out of the EZ if it gets there give it up already.... Where are you getting this from? I don't think that's the rule. The rule is, as I wrote in my post, that the ball is live until it's declared dead. It's dead when the the ball carrier gives himself up, and the rule is very clear about how he can do that. I don't think there's a rule that says what you claim. If you're correct, the official in the end zone didn't know the rule, because he clearly thought the ball was still in play in the kick returner's hands. When the NFL changed the rule about an untouched ball in the end zone being a dead ball and not recoverable by the kicking team, I don't think they changed anything about how a receiver in the end zone indicates that he wants to take the touchback.
MJS Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, BillsFan692 said: Tre white went down to the ground first though. Thus giving himself up. Nobody touched him. Quite a bit different since this player didnt go down to the ground and if he did we wouldnt even be talking about it. Tre could have gotten up and returned the INT. He got right up and instead of returning it, he ran the opposite direction.
reddogblitz Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 17 hours ago, Aireskoi said: This play comes to mind...guess the ball is dead now a days? I know it's not a kickoff return, but what's the diff... good one. Reminded me more of this one. Why didn't "common sense" prevail here. Obviously TD Mike wasn't going with it back. 1
Nitro Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 If waving his arm was a signal of giving up ten put it in the rule book. Ref was standing right there, like has done one hundred times during the season, and does not whistle the play dead. I would like his explanation on that. 1
BringMetheHeadofLeonLett Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 We were up by 16 points and blew it. This thread is the only reason I remember that play. It was the right call, according to my hangover. )
Sandhill Mike Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 I can't say I've ever seen a fair catch on a kickoff (though I see it is allowed) and even so, I didn't notice their guy signal anything... he just fielded the ball and tossed it towards the ref. I was shouting live ball... he never took a knee or stepped out of bounds. He was a live runner from what I remember of the rules. I think the rules committee will address two plays from this game in the offseason. They will define this giving oneself up to include what we saw yesterday and I think they should address the Cody Ford "blindside" block... Those guys could see each other. 1
bbb Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 42 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said: I am not responding to McBride at all - read what I was responding to - the Bills/Jets kickoff from 2 years ago that was being used as a reference. I do tend to agree that I believe I have seen guys flip back kickoffs without kneeling, but I do not know what agreement or signals were in place. This seems like you are talking about the rule as of now: If the ball on a kickoff touches the ground in the end zone without being touched - it is now a touchback regardless of where it hit the ground first. It can hit at the 10 and bounce into the end zone and it is a touchback - like a punt.
familykwi Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 As an official (local high school, not NFL), I've been bothered about what was actually ruled on the end zone play. I've been going through the 2019 NFL rulebook to sort out what should have been ruled. If a fair catch signal was given, the kick would have ended in a touchback, but no signal shows on film and the referee action makes it clear none was given. Now the rule book: Rule 6, Section 1, Article 5a: It is a touchback, if a free kick: touches the ground in the end zone before being touched by the receiving team. * This did not occur as the ball was caught in flight. It is a touchback, if a free kick: is downed in the end zone by the receiving team. * This required further research to determine what constitutes downing the ball. Unfortunately, the word "downed" is not defined in the rule book. I then went to a player giving himself up. Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1d: An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended: when a runner declares himself down by: falling to the ground, or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance. sliding. When a runner slides, the ball is dead the instant he touches the ground with anything other than his hands or his feet. Neither of these things happen either. The burden of knowing this rule is on the player and this is where the problem occurs. At this point, the referee is correct in letting the play continue. Rule 7, Section 2, Article 1 An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended: when a forward pass (legal or illegal) is incomplete. THIS is what the kick returner did and this is what should have been ruled as the action of the play. As such, no touchdown should have been awarded. What should have been the outcome of the incomplete pass you ask? Since the forward pass was not thrown to an eligible receiver Rule 11, Section 5, Article 1(exception 2b) If a player of the team which intercepts, catches, or recovers the ball commits a live-ball foul in the end zone, it is a safety. A SAFETY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE CORRECT RULING. My observation is that no one on the crew considered the toss forward a forward pass. That wasn't the player's intention obviously, but there are a lot of actions the players don't intend to do, but rulings must be made. The referee was initially ruling this correctly by not awarding the fair catch, but confused the issue by ruling a touchdown. For those wondering who the black shirts were, it was noted during the broadcast that they were the backup officials. If an official goes down and needs to leave the field, they come in. I cannot say for sure they've never been consulted to assist with an on field ruling before, but I've never seen it as an official, or as a fan. Ruling that the player gave himself up may have been "common sense," but is not supported by the rule book. FTR, I submit this for clarity, not as a belief that the Bills were conspired against. it was a weird play and I hadn't considered the forward pass element myself until seeing someone mention it on twitter after the game. I beg responders to consider this informational, nothing more. 3
Don Otreply Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 Do the rules say you have to kneel it down to close of the play as it were or not? If so we had a TD taken from us that should have counted, jungle rule don’t count. Can’t be making stuff up, rules are the rules. 1
4merper4mer Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 49 minutes ago, row_33 said: no it doesn’t any action of dismissing a run back is enough, by word or hand wave or telling the official you will not be coming out of the EZ if it gets there he clearly forfeited a return by his actions give it up already.... The rule is quoted directly from the rule book earlier in this thread and you are simply incorrect. 2 1
stevewin Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 Yeah - key is "falling to the ground, or kneeling, and clearly making no immediate effort to advance" - which clearly didn't happen. Nothing that can be done now - but yeah it sucks. Se discussion at 4:30 mark of video linked in this thread
Buffalo_Stampede Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 It was a fumble by rule. Returner was walking forward with the ball, ref told him to stay. I'm not mad at the reversal though.
Brianmoorman4jesus Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 I can live with that play. But it stinks that it was called a TD on the field. Also if you look the ref is holding his hand down and shaking his head as if to say “no” as he’s flipping the ball. Not blaming the refs for this loss though. 100% on the Bills and and now the fans will sit with it for much longer then the players sadly.
Augie Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 I, for one, think it is AWSOME that we are complaining about refs and calls today. This beats the heck out of being in our third month of talking about the next draft!
stevewin Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: It was a fumble by rule. Returner was walking forward with the ball, ref told him to stay. I'm not mad at the reversal though. The ref didn't tell him to stay, the ref signaled "Don't give me that MF'ing ball, MF'er - it's still live!" 2
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