SoCal Deek Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Kmart128 said: This is incorrect. You are thinking of the Jets and Bills kick off. That wouldnt be a touchback today. On kickoffs if the ball lands in the field of play and rolls into endzone its still considered a live ball. Its like an onside kick. However if ball travels the entire way into the air and land into the endzone then its a automatic touchback. In that Bills and Jets play the ball landed in play and rolled into the endzone. Mile Gillislee tracked it down but didnt recover it. Had he... he would have been tackled and gotten a safety but since he let it go the Jets got a TD instead. There you go. That’s how I remember it. Still an incredibly dumb play at the time. And I still say this odd guys in the black jackets had no business coming into the field of play and overturning the Referee. Who are those guys?
Kmart128 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Turk71 said: Garbage. Fumbles go forward backward or sideways, a live ball is a live ball. Forward lateral is to a teammate. Not necessarily... on end of plays games players accidentally pitch ball forward to no one in particular a lot and refs still throw the flag in those situations. Hand was going forward. If he had just dropped the ball and it went forward its a TD. But his hand motion was moving forward making it a forward pass instead of a fumble.
Turk71 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Kmart128 said: Not necessarily... on end of plays games players accidentally pitch ball forward to no one in particular a lot and refs still throw the flag in those situations. Hand was going forward. If he had just dropped the ball and it went forward its a TD. But his hand motion was moving forward making it a forward pass instead of a fumble. Only if their teammate gets the ball, if the other team does its just a fumble. You can't throw forward passes on kickoffs. Get a clue. Edited January 5, 2020 by Turk71 1
Kmart128 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Turk71 said: Only if their teammate gets the ball, if the other team does its just a fumble. Sometimes a ref would let that go just to have game end but its incorrect
DCOrange Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 26 minutes ago, Kmart128 said: This is incorrect. You are thinking of the Jets and Bills kick off. That wouldnt be a touchback today. On kickoffs if the ball lands in the field of play and rolls into endzone its still considered a live ball. Its like an onside kick. However if ball travels the entire way into the air and land into the endzone then its a automatic touchback. In that Bills and Jets play the ball landed in play and rolled into the endzone. Mile Gillislee tracked it down but didnt recover it. Had he... he would have been tackled and gotten a safety but since he let it go the Jets got a TD instead. I’m still not sure I am. The rule book says if the ball touches the ground in the end zone at all, it’s a touchback. It doesn’t say it needs to initially land in the end zone. Maybe that’s the way it’s enforced but it’s not the way it’s written in the rule book. 25 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: There you go. That’s how I remember it. Still an incredibly dumb play at the time. And I still say this odd guys in the black jackets had no business coming into the field of play and overturning the Referee. Who are those guys? Those are the alternate refs. He almost certainly was talking to the league office and they sent him out there to make sure the refs didn’t actually go through with enforcing the rule. 1
Southern Bills Fan Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) Tim Hasslebeck just said on espn that it should have been an illegal forward pass in the end zone. Safety for the Bills and Houston should have then been kicking off to the Bills. Edited January 5, 2020 by Southern Bills Fan
Shaw66 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 7 hours ago, Scott7975 said: Best post ever and absolutely correct. But I think people are correct that it was an illegal forward pass, in which case it probably was a dead ball, so no TD. It's either a touchback with a half the distance to the goal line penalty or a safety. Whatever, it wasn't a touchback. It's the give-every-kid-a-trophy culture. We don't want to punish him for making an innocent mistake, he might feel bad.
Not at the table Karlos Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 13 hours ago, MJS said: He gave himself up. Remember the Tee White INT where he ran back into the end zone? They rules that Tre White gave himself up too. Can't have it both ways. There’s a big difference between laying on the ground and walking forward on a kickoff return. Kick returners will stand and read the blocking at times before taking the ball out. Did he intend to give himself up? Yes. But intent doesn’t matter. Josh intended to get the ball past the line of scrimmage on his intentional grounding but the ball didn’t get there so it was a penalty. Returner should have taken a knee or let the ball go. 55 minutes ago, Cheektowaga Chad said: The more I think about this play the more I believe it should have been a bills touchdown How many times a season does a returner take a few slow/walking steps and then take off out of the end zone? It was a mental mistake and in the playoffs keeping calm and not making mental mistakes is huge Edit: other plays that this in my opinion puts into an even greyer zone - fake kneels(saw this against the ravens) fake spikes, as someone mentioned earlier dropping the ball before crossing the goal line(watkins, demean Jackson) A lot. This is my point as well. He walked forward and never gave himself up. This is like when Plaxico Burress caught the ball and fell to the ground with nobody touching him then got up and spiked or spun the ball. It was an idiotic mistake that had consequences. The returner should have taken a knee or let the ball go out of the endzone. 1
skibum Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) My question is, if instead of throwing the ball on the ground, he ran it out - would they have blown the play dead as a touchback? If the answer is no, it should have been Touchdown Bills. It's either a live ball or it's not. You either signal Fair Catch or you don't. You either take a knee or you don't. Throwing a ball on the ground has never been a legitimate means of surrendering a play - just ask Josh Allen. I also think that in a parallel universe, if Andre Roberts had done the same thing and the Texans were granted a touchdown, we would all be sitting here talking about what an idiot Andre Roberts is. Edited January 5, 2020 by skibum
SCBills Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 I don’t care too much about this, but I do care that this was called this way, yet they didn’t feel the need to let Ford’s less-than-mild “crackback block” go or call the delay of game on 3rd and 18.
Big Turk Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, peterpan said: I've never seen that signal before. Since when does double fists, arms spread, signal a fair catch/give up??? I'm wondering when that became a legal signal and/or why the call was overturned?!?!? Its a "safe" sign for the kickoff team signalling he will not be returning the ball and they don't need to block. That being said what possible reason does a player have for even touching a ball that makes it to the endzone if they aren't returning it? Just let it bounce and walk away. Only bad things can happen if they try to catch it. Edited January 5, 2020 by matter2003 2
peterpan Posted January 5, 2020 Author Posted January 5, 2020 8 hours ago, DCOrange said: An intentional forward moving fumble is an illegal forward pass and is dead the second it hits the ground so no TD. I get what you are saying, but I don't believe that would be the correct call. I've only seen illegal forward pass called when the player is very clearly passing the ball. Not just an underhand toss. There's no historical argument to call that a pass. For example, the plaxico burress spike, was called a fumble. Even tho he intentionally threw the ball and it moved forward. https://youtu.be/rNOvBSTqLoc 1
DCOrange Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, peterpan said: I get what you are saying, but I don't believe that would be the correct call. I've only seen illegal forward pass called when the player is very clearly passing the ball. Not just an underhand toss. There's no historical argument to call that a pass. For example, the plaxico burress spike, was called a fumble. Even tho he intentionally threw the ball and it moved forward. https://youtu.be/rNOvBSTqLoc Understood it isn’t always called that way, but there have definitely been forward laterals that we’re called. This is no different. The rule book clearly states that an intentional forward fumble is considered to be a forward pass. And in this case, it would be an illegal forward pass. I also don’t think the refs knew if Plaxico threw it forwards or not since it was very close to being a downward spike. Edited January 5, 2020 by DCOrange
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 1 hour ago, Cheektowaga Chad said: The more I think about this play the more I believe it should have been a bills touchdown How many times a season does a returner take a few slow/walking steps and then take off out of the end zone? It was a mental mistake and in the playoffs keeping calm and not making mental mistakes is huge Edit: other plays that this in my opinion puts into an even greyer zone - fake kneels(saw this against the ravens) fake spikes, as someone mentioned earlier dropping the ball before crossing the goal line(watkins, demean Jackson) It actually happens all of the time. That is the new way to signal “I’m not returning”, and I’ve seen it numerous times throughout the league. More to the point, this is a disaster of a thread and basically moon landing stuff for the nuttiest of Bills fans. 1
plenzmd1 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: It actually happens all of the time. That is the new way to signal “I’m not returning”, and I’ve seen it numerous times throughout the league. More to the point, this is a disaster of a thread and basically moon landing stuff for the nuttiest of Bills fans. Not quite sure what you are saying Dave. Are you saying the “ safe” signal is now accepted by the refs as you are giving your self up? i don’t believe anyone in here is saying Bills lost because of this call or there is some grand conspiracy, but “ common sense” is not part of the rule book. under the rules this was a missed call, intent means nothing.
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, plenzmd1 said: Not quite sure what you are saying Dave. Are you saying the “ safe” signal is now accepted by the refs as you are giving your self up? i don’t believe anyone in here is saying Bills lost because of this call or there is some grand conspiracy, but “ common sense” is not part of the rule book. under the rules this was a missed call, intent means nothing. I am telling you - I have seen this multiple times throughout the league, and gene steratore said this too. It’s always treated as a touch back.
plenzmd1 Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, dave mcbride said: I am telling you - I have seen this multiple times throughout the league, and gene steratore said this too. It’s always treated as a touch back. Simple question... is the safe signal noted in the rule book as a player giving himself up?
dave mcbride Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, plenzmd1 said: Simple question... is the safe signal noted in the rule book as a player giving himself up? It’s ambiguous, but a rule-of-reason interpretation would find that that amounted to a touchback. Kneeling isn’t required, as far as I can tell. If a ball gets to the end zone and touches the ground, it’s an automatic touchback. There’s no need for a player to pick it up and kneel, or even catch a ball if it’s headed for the end zone and they don’t intend to return it. This is a small time saver, but the goal is to blow a play dead earlier so that unnecessary collisions don’t happen. Under the previous rules, a player could take their time gathering a ball and kneeling while the coverage team and return team blockers still careened toward each other for no reason.
Jaywrizzo Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 14 hours ago, suorangefan4 said: Yet if a Houston player picked that up and ran it back for a TD it probably would've counted and not been overturned. And people everywhere would think it was a legit TD and mocking us. Have U not watched a game all season...This is the 1st time U have seen this? This is what we're complaining about Today.....haha.....UNREAL
4merper4mer Posted January 5, 2020 Posted January 5, 2020 21 minutes ago, dave mcbride said: It actually happens all of the time. That is the new way to signal “I’m not returning”, and I’ve seen it numerous times throughout the league. More to the point, this is a disaster of a thread and basically moon landing stuff for the nuttiest of Bills fans. Completely wrong. You shouldn't talk down to people, especially when you're wrong. 2
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