The fair catch, that wasn't.

[GoBills808]

 

[muppy]

The rule needs to be strictly enforced from here on out PERIOD. It is either an officials whistle signaling the play is over, a knee on the ground or it goes out of bounds PERIOD..remove all the freakin conjecture make it simple.. Noone is going to change the call that was made now all we can hope for is the rule is crystal clear and enforced as such going forward. The debate is raging on this topic and both sides, either he was logically and obviously "giving up" or the player screwed up and assumed the ref would call him giving himself up when he really OFFICIALLY and per rules did no such thing. It is a lot of spilt milk but Im on the side of since the player didnt "Officially" take a knee that ball was Live no matter what and at the least it was a safety or a TD as called. Clear as freakin mud its no wonder folks are up in arms. So much conjecture and mind reading of that kickoff returners intentions..why not make it a CERTAINTY and obey the rule or accept the screwup and consequences when your mistake costs your team. EITHER TEAM

Edited January 6, 2020 by Margarita

[Jauronimo]

9 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

What about refs who throw flags that get picked up?  

 

Refs are human and thats why there are multiple refs on the field and they discuss to get the call right.  Refs mistakenly throw flags all the time, and they also mistakenly dont throw flags when they should.  

 

You want to complain about a ref mistake, then complain about the delay of game that wasn't called on the 3rd and 18 play or the phantom call on Ford in OT.  

How is picking up a flag analogous to overturning a scoring play?  Especially given that ALL SCORING PLAYS ARE AUTOMATICALLY REVIEWED BY THE HEAD OF OFFICIATING IN NEW YORK!  Why not let it go to review? 

 

Instead, they abandoned protocol and the rule book.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bizarre-bills-kickoff-touchdown-overturned-after-officials-rule-the-returner-gave-himself-up/

 

 

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

What are you talking about.  I gave a reason, same reason refs gave.  Player was determined to have given himself up, they can do that.  It was CLEAR AS DAY the player gave himself up on the play, even tried to hand the ball to the ref.  There is nothing left to discuss or explain.  You just want to refuse to accept that, and thats on you.  I am not the one who needs to further explain that, you want to claim it should be a TD (yet at the same time above basically acknowledge its not).

 

Sorry, it wasn't a TD, nor should have it been.

Yes you absolutely need a ton of explanation and you're going to get it.  Giving yourself up is governed by f@#$ing rules, imagine that. Throwing the ball near a ref does not constitute giving oneself up any more than screaming "I declare bankruptcy!" is recognized by the IRS.  So how can you give yourself up?? CAll a fair catch, take a knee, don't field the kick. 

 

Now which one of those did Carter elect?? I'll wait.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Jauronimo

[BuffaloRebound]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

What are you talking about.  I gave a reason, same reason refs gave.  Player was determined to have given himself up, they can do that.  It was CLEAR AS DAY the player gave himself up on the play, even tried to hand the ball to the ref.  There is nothing left to discuss or explain.  You just want to refuse to accept that, and thats on you.  I am not the one who needs to further explain that, you want to claim it should be a TD (yet at the same time above basically acknowledge its not).

 

Sorry, it wasn't a TD, nor should have it been.

 

Your argument if you want to call it that has a thousand holes in it.  There are clear rules how you give yourself up and he did none of those.  When he catches the ball the play is live.  It’s the same thing as not taking a knee on victory formation and tossing the ball to the ref.  It’s a live ball and the ref on the field got it right.  

[4merper4mer]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

What are you talking about.  I gave a reason, same reason refs gave.  Player was determined to have given himself up, they can do that.  It was CLEAR AS DAY the player gave himself up on the play, even tried to hand the ball to the ref.  There is nothing left to discuss or explain.  You just want to refuse to accept that, and thats on you.  I am not the one who needs to further explain that, you want to claim it should be a TD (yet at the same time above basically acknowledge its not).

 

Sorry, it wasn't a TD, nor should have it been.

Can you list all of the written rules that don't count so we all have a reference next year?

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

How is picking up a flag analogous to overturning a scoring play?  Especially given that ALL SCORING PLAYS ARE AUTOMATICALLY REVIEWED BY THE HEAD OF OFFICIATING IN NEW YORK!  Why not let it go to review? 

 

Instead, they abandoned protocol and the rule book.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bizarre-bills-kickoff-touchdown-overturned-after-officials-rule-the-returner-gave-himself-up/

 

 

Yes you absolutely need a ton of explanation and you're going to get it.  Giving yourself up is governed by f@#$ing rules, imagine that. Throwing the ball near a ref does not constitute giving oneself up any more than screaming "I declare bankruptcy!" is recognized by the IRS.  So how can you give yourself up?? CAll a fair catch, take a knee, don't field the kick. 

 

Now which one of those did Carter elect?? I'll wait.

 

 

 

You are the one saying the ref initially called it one way.  As if that false logic is to somehow prove the validity of your point and play.  I pointed out Refs call things wrong initially all the time, hence when they pick up flags.  You want to ignore the possibility, well fact, that the ref initially called it wrong.  

 

And even in the title of your tweet it says the receiver gave the sign indicating no intention of returning the ball.  He then proceeded to try and hand the ball to the ref.  

 

Seriously, what is there to even argue?  He CLEARLY without question gave himself up, and the refs can make that determination and have before too.  

[Shaw66]

Dawg, I think you're wrong for a good reason that I saw someone give.  The official was standing in the end zone, looking at the returner, waiting for him to do something.   If he had taken off up field and run for a touchdown, what would have happened?   The Bills would have argued that he gave himself up because they saw him old his arms out, and the Bills would have lost that argument.   No chance in the world the refs are going to call a touchback.  As far as the official in the end zone was concern, it was a live ball.   

 

If it's a live ball, the play is responsible for his actions.  As others have pointed out, the guy running unobstructed who drops the ball before crossing the goal line is not credited with a touchdown just because everyone knew that he was about to score.   It's a live ball, and he's responsible for it.  If he drops it early, that's his problem.  

 

As someone else said, if I'm the QB in the victory formation, running out the clock, I take the snap and without taking a knee I turn and flip the ball to the ref, what does the ref do?   He steps out of the way, because it's a live ball.   

 

They're all the same thing.  The kick returner didn't have to catch the ball.  He could have let it fall into the end zone, which would have been an automatic touchback.  But once he touches it, it's a live ball until the play is over.   If he chooses to flip the ball toward the official, well, that's really stupid, but there's no rule that allows the ref to arbitrarily forgive really stupid.  

 

There is a rule that covers the illegal forward pass in the endzone.  If it is recovered by the defense, it's a safety.   There are rules that cover every aspect of that play, there was no ambiguity.   The officials on their own chose not to follow the rules.  

 

As I've said elsewhere, that referee no longer be permitted to officiate NFL games.   He demonstrated a total ignorance both of the specific rules and of the more general notion that he doesn't have any authority to ignore the rules because it thinks it's the right thing to do.  

[Motorin']

I know nobody really want to hear it, but the kickoff was dead the moment he threw the ball forward. The letter of the law says that anytime a running throws the ball forward it is a dead ball when it hits the ground.

 

Turns out a forward lateral can not be recovered or advances. It's treated like an incomplete pass.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Motorin'

[GoBills808]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You are the one saying the ref initially called it one way.  As if that false logic is to somehow prove the validity of your point and play.  I pointed out Refs call things wrong initially all the time, hence when they pick up flags.  You want to ignore the possibility, well fact, that the ref initially called it wrong.  

 

And even in the title of your tweet it says the receiver gave the sign indicating no intention of returning the ball.  He then proceeded to try and hand the ball to the ref.  

 

Seriously, what is there to even argue?  He CLEARLY without question gave himself up, and the refs can make that determination and have before too.  

You realize the rulebook defines very specifically the ways a runner can give himself up, and he didn't do any of those things, right?

[mannc]

7 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

How is picking up a flag analogous to overturning a scoring play?  Especially given that ALL SCORING PLAYS ARE AUTOMATICALLY REVIEWED BY THE HEAD OF OFFICIATING IN NEW YORK!  Why not let it go to review? 

 

Instead, they abandoned protocol and the rule book.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bizarre-bills-kickoff-touchdown-overturned-after-officials-rule-the-returner-gave-himself-up/

 

 

This is a great twitter thread from Monahan.  It really should end all discussion.  The Bills were literally robbed of seven (or eight) points.

[GoBills808]

Just now, Motorin' said:

I know nobody really want to hear it, but the kickoff was dead the moment he threw the ball forward. The letter of the law says that anytime a running throws the ball forward it is a dead ball when it hits the ground.

Yup. That's a safety. 2pts to Bills and ball back was the correct call

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

14 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Yet it was over turned.  Who cares how long they talked about it, it was not a TD.  Its not even on the list of why we lost this game.  Should not have been a TD, will never be called a TD.  A player can be determined to have given himself up, and its not the first time thats been a ruling before.  

 

There are about 100 other reasons and plays of why we lost Saturday, this isn't one of them.  I said it the moment they showed the replay the first time so I can see what happened...no way this TD stands.  

No Dawg, you're wrong here.  Not completely wrong, but wrong enough.

 

Yes, every fan in America would argue he gave himself up.  Yes, there are fans of teams who would argue, as you do, that the right thing to do was to correct the objectionable call and be on our way. 

 

Of course this is one of the reasons we lost.  When you take 6 points off the board in a 22-19 game, well the math is what it is.  It's not the sole reason, nor is it even perhaps the primary reason.  That matter is debatable.

 

You have a rule, or you do not.  We all have seen plays when a turnover occurred, or a player was fighting for extra yardage only to find later that the whistle had blown and whatever else happened, it was what it was.  We have all seen plays with inconsistent officiating where one action was determined to be penalty-worthy and a similar play a short time later was not called.  We have seen and heard "Great no call!" or "They are letting them play!" which, of course, are muttered because in other games the exact opposite happens.

 

The official on the field made the call, made it definitively and quickly.  The fact that the receiver was lazy in his job means little, just like a Qb who decides to give himself up 2 yards from the out of bounds line and gets tackled because he got lazy.  The fact that he got lazy in the field of play is irrelevant, except of course when the rule can be changed on the spot based on 'feelings'. Had the official ruled in Houston's favor, it's a judgement call. Still wrong, but you're going nowhere fast with that. 

 

Should have been a TD, was a TD until those Men in Black ran out and carved an on-the-spot exception to the rule.  

 

 

 

 

[Motorin']

Just now, mannc said:

This is a great twitter thread from Monahan.  It really should end all discussion.  The Bills were literally robbed of seven (or eight) points.

They weren't. 

 

The play is dead bc he threw the ball forward. An illegal forward lateral cannot be recovered or advanced. It is a dead play the moment it hits the ground.

[Jauronimo]

Just now, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You are the one saying the ref initially called it one way.  As if that false logic is to somehow prove the validity of your point and play.  I pointed out Refs call things wrong initially all the time, hence when they pick up flags.  You want to ignore the possibility, well fact, that the ref initially called it wrong.  

 

And even in the title of your tweet it says the receiver gave the sign indicating no intention of returning the ball.  He then proceeded to try and hand the ball to the ref.  

 

Seriously, what is there to even argue?  He CLEARLY without question gave himself up, and the refs can make that determination and have before too.  

He clearly and without question took none of the actions that constitute "giving himself up" per NFL rules.  And no, the refs have ZERO ability to change the rule book mid game.  ZERO.  At least they didn't until Saturday.  

 

 

[section122]

1 minute ago, Motorin' said:

I know nobody really want to hear it, but the kickoff was dead the moment he threw the ball forward. The letter of the law says that anytime a running throws the ball forward it is a dead ball when it hits the ground.

Yes and since it was a penalty in the endzone it should have been a safety.  Not a touchback.

 

I vowed not to let myself get so upset about football anymore a few years ago (atlanta game in toronto where they kept fumbling the stupid ball).  This game made me break that rule.  Never has intent governed the game only actions.

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You are the one saying the ref initially called it one way.  As if that false logic is to somehow prove the validity of your point and play.  I pointed out Refs call things wrong initially all the time, hence when they pick up flags.  You want to ignore the possibility, well fact, that the ref initially called it wrong.  

 

And even in the title of your tweet it says the receiver gave the sign indicating no intention of returning the ball.  He then proceeded to try and hand the ball to the ref.  

 

Seriously, what is there to even argue?  He CLEARLY without question gave himself up, and the refs can make that determination and have before too.  

You keep repeating this, but are you aware that there is an actual rule regarding how a kickoff return man may "give himself up"?  If so, will you admit that that rule was not followed?   

[Jauronimo]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Yup. That's a safety. 2pts to Bills and ball back was the correct call

Which is what I alluded to earlier.  Trying to leave some breadcrumbs for alphadawg but he'd rather eat his own excrement today.  

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

They weren't. 

 

The play is dead bc he threw the ball forward. An illegal forward lateral cannot be recovered or advanced. It is a dead play the moment it hits the ground.

I don't think that's correct, but assuming it is, what should have been the result?  Safety?

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

I know nobody really want to hear it, but the kickoff was dead the moment he threw the ball forward. The letter of the law says that anytime a running throws the ball forward it is a dead ball when it hits the ground.

 

Turns out a forward lateral can not be recovered or advances. It's treated like an incomplete pass.

You're almost right, but you're wrong.   

 

When he threw it forward, it was an illegal forward pass.   The rules say that when an illegal forward pass is recovered in the end zone, it's a safety.  Two points to Buffalo, and Houston kicks from their 20.   

 

That was the correct call, and there is no questions about it.  

[GoBills808]

Just now, Jauronimo said:

Which is what I alluded to earlier.  Trying to leave some breadcrumbs for alphadawg but he'd rather eat his own excrement today.  

I think, somehow, people are under the impression that the phrase 'giving yourself up' as a runner is ambiguously defined, and it isn't. It's very clear.