Warren Zevon Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 8 minutes ago, row_33 said: He merely states that Iran gave clandestine safe passage to many of the same people who ended up murdering 3,000 Americans. 10 of the 12, but there were 19
TPS Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 Rand Paul has a good take on things... https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/01/06/rand-paul-iran-trump-bolton-vpx.cnn 1
Foxx Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, sherpa said: I did answer the question, though it isn't what Trump said. I said "if there is no military benefit to doing so." It's silly to get into hypotheticals, so I won't. Gaming this think before anything happens is a really bad idea, but......... Iranian "ammunition" is not a threat. The US' strategic interest in anything Iranian related would be twofold. One is to protect shipping, which would involve eliminating the threat to the Strait of Hormuz, Persian gulf and Northern Arabian Sea. The other is to disrupt and delay their nuclear weapons program, which is almost entirely deeply underground and probably, (I'm guessing here), location known. Tactically, in order to do that, you have to do what the US always does at the onset, which is to take out command and control and air defense capability related to those two objectives. None of that relates to cultural sites, and using such places to train terrorists or store ammunition, per your hypothetical, probably isn't important enough to worry about. Nonetheless, going after a cultural site is anathema to a professional military, which the US is. no, you did not answer the question. what you did was to create your own strawman and proceed to attempt to kill it. that is simply not being genuine. as you attempted to do here, in this subsequent response. i have the utmost respect for you, sherpa but my disagreement with you here has nothing to do with anything outside of the question that was asked and avoided. i shall ask it again, it really is pretty simple. two questions of which a simple yes or no to answer them is required. whereby opining after the fact in support of the direct answer is always acceptable in courteous discourse. "are you saying that Hezbollah and their ilk are not using cultural centers to house/train terrorists? nor are they using them for command control centers or to store ammunition?" also, not surprising @John Adams elected to not answer it but to tag along with your response. Edited January 7, 2020 by Foxx
DC Tom Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 13 hours ago, John Adams said: Well it was only the VP's statement about Sulimani. https://mobile.twitter.com/Mike_Pence/status/1213189757708189699?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1213189757708189699&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.vox.com%2Fpolicy-and-politics%2F2020%2F1%2F4%2F21049671%2Fqassem-soleimani-iran-9-11-mike-pence-trump-administration Stupid in many ways. And amusing to tie this to Iran but never Saudi Arabia. Never! I couldn't tell you the last time I paid attention to anything the VP said. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to remember the last time I paid attention to anything Trump said. Why do people pay attention to them?
TPS Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 2 minutes ago, DC Tom said: I couldn't tell you the last time I paid attention to anything the VP said. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to remember the last time I paid attention to anything Trump said. Why do people pay attention to them? Because they're idiots...
Tiberius Posted January 7, 2020 Author Posted January 7, 2020 40 minutes ago, Foxx said: no, you did not answer the question. what you did was to create your own strawman and proceed to attempt to kill it. that is simply not being genuine. as you attempted to do here, in this subsequent response. i have the utmost respect for you, sherpa but my disagreement with you here has nothing to do with anything outside of the question that was asked and avoided. i shall ask it again, it really is pretty simple. two questions of which a simple yes or no to answer them is required. whereby opining after the fact in support of the direct answer is always acceptable in courteous discourse. "are you saying that Hezbollah and their ilk are not using cultural centers to house/train terrorists? nor are they using them for command control centers or to store ammunition?" also, not surprising @John Adams elected to not answer it but to tag along with your response. I'll answer. I'd say probably yes. But that is no reason to begin bombing those places. War is just an extension of politics and if you want to win you don't do dumb things to enflame the situation. Public opinion is a weapon, and you have to do your best to have the support of it.
sherpa Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Foxx said: "are you saying that Hezbollah and their ilk are not using cultural centers to house/train terrorists? nor are they using them for command control centers or to store ammunition?" I have no idea, but I am not aware of them using Iranian locations for those activities. They export that kind of stuff to other places, or at least they have. You can't simply relocate command and control centers, and I doubt they would use such places as storage for any munitions that the world would care about. Their nuc stuff is deeply underground. Anyway, I've never been aware of any military value that would justify any strike on a cultural site there, but who knows. Either way, it was stupid thing for the president to say. Nothing gained, but a ton of speculation that puts us on the defense. The man is a massive unforced error source, and he hasn't figure it out. Such statements make military people cringe. Related, I think the US deployed six B-52's to Diego Garcia yesterday, which argues for a more strategic response, but that would just be a start. Edited January 7, 2020 by sherpa
RochesterRob Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 3 hours ago, Gary Busey said: Moran is a board meme, moron. That's no excuse you turd. By the way I thought that I flushed you down the toilet last night?
sherpa Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, 4merper4mer said: I read somewhere, linked in this thread....not sure exactly where, that much of their cyber terrorism OP's are run from cultural/historical locations. If true, your thoughts on taking them out? My initial thought would that they could be "taken out" through means other than ordnance and without harming the structures. I'm not sure if that is viable but have to believe it would be. I hope that we could address a cyber threat without altering real estate.
DC Tom Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 52 minutes ago, Foxx said: no, you did not answer the question. what you did was to create your own strawman and proceed to attempt to kill it. that is simply not being genuine. as you attempted to do here, in this subsequent response. i have the utmost respect for you, sherpa but my disagreement with you here has nothing to do with anything outside of the question that was asked and avoided. i shall ask it again, it really is pretty simple. two questions of which a simple yes or no to answer them is required. whereby opining after the fact in support of the direct answer is always acceptable in courteous discourse. "are you saying that Hezbollah and their ilk are not using cultural centers to house/train terrorists? nor are they using them for command control centers or to store ammunition?" also, not surprising @John Adams elected to not answer it but to tag along with your response. Hezbollah is almost certainly not using Iranian cultural centers. Since they're Lebanese. The IRGC and Quds most likely isn't, since they have military bases and depots and such, and don't need to disperse and hide munitions like a terrorist force. Don't forget: the Iranians don't consider the IRGC and Quds "terrorist" or "irregular" forces. Within Iranian context, they're normal parts of their military complex. Stashing a Quds armory in an Iranian UNESCO Heritage site would be equivalent to putting a small JSOC armory in the Statue of Liberty. 5 minutes ago, sherpa said: I hope that we could address a cyber threat without altering real estate. Most of their world heritage sites are cities destroyed by Genghis Khan. Worst we'd do is bounce the rubble. (Yes, sarcasm. But it's surprising, how many of those sites are "There used to be something here, before the Mongols.")
RochesterRob Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 5 hours ago, John Adams said: Others have been bad so we can be bad? Is that your defense of this statement? It's the "He's my president, not my pastor" line of thinking. Such a low threshold you set. Thankfully his generals don't agree with him on this, though even when the military wanted to put the prisoner child killer to justice, Trump intervened, so who knows what he does if Iran retaliates. What a guy (him, and you). Your examples, minus ISIL, were also not subject to the 1954 Hague Convention agreement, but maybe you want him to tear that treaty up too. Joke posts are supposed to be funny, moran. And you are not funny and obviously are not self aware. Despite all your posing you probably grew up elite financially. You probably looked down at the Irish, Italians, and Catholics in your town growing up as did a couple of jerks I had to deal with growing up. You have a lot of work to do in order to place yourself in the moral penthouse that you imagine yourself to be in at present.
row_33 Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 20 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: That's no excuse you turd. By the way I thought that I flushed you down the toilet last night? one has to show they are smart enough first on here before thinking that crappy wit through deliberate misssspellings is accepted
DC Tom Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 16 minutes ago, RochesterRob said: And you are not funny and obviously are not self aware. Despite all your posing you probably grew up elite financially. You probably looked down at the Irish, Italians, and Catholics in your town growing up as did a couple of jerks I had to deal with growing up. You have a lot of work to do in order to place yourself in the moral penthouse that you imagine yourself to be in at present. But who doesn't look down at the micks, *****, and bead squeezers?
row_33 Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, DC Tom said: I couldn't tell you the last time I paid attention to anything the VP said. In fact, I'm hard-pressed to remember the last time I paid attention to anything Trump said. Why do people pay attention to them? they got their practice watching 700 Club waiting for Pat Robertson to say something and then they needed a brain diaper now it's extended to almost every liberal with an iPhone or its like and we'll have fun fun fun...
Foxx Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 33 minutes ago, sherpa said: I have no idea, but I am not aware of them using Iranian locations for those activities. They export that kind of stuff to other places, or at least they have. You can't simply relocate command and control centers, and I doubt they would use such places as storage for any munitions that the world would care about. Their nuc stuff is deeply underground. Anyway, I've never been aware of any military value that would justify any strike on a cultural site there, but who knows. Either way, it was stupid thing for the president to say. Nothing gained, but a ton of speculation that puts us on the defense. The man is a massive unforced error source, and he hasn't figure it out. Such statements make military people cringe. Related, I think the US deployed six B-52's to Diego Garcia yesterday, which argues for a more strategic response, but that would just be a start. thank you. i also do not know with any certainty whether Hezbollah uses cultural centers to store command centers, train and house terrorists and/or to store munitions. however with that being said, i do remember it being pretty widely reported some time ago that Hamas used hospitals, schools and mosques to do exactly that in Palestine. as such, i don't think it a giant leap to think that other Iranian proxies would do the same. these are, after all, terrorist organizations who, due in large part to their diminutive stature, fight in asymmetrical ways to take away the advantage afforded to better equipped/organized militaries. many reasons why they would do this but first and foremost is so that these installations are hard targets in the world of public perception. this is exactly why Hamas, as a practice, shoots rockets from residential areas. it may have been a stupid thing for the President to say and i know many think he just spouts off at the mouth but i believe he was alluding to the fact that there are cultural centers being used for these purposes. and, i'm not saying they are but if indeed they are, all political correctness aside, then they are legitimate targets.
RochesterRob Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 17 minutes ago, DC Tom said: But who doesn't look down at the micks, *****, and bead squeezers? Tom, the difference is I know that you are busting my balls but maybe in a way I don't see from most other people. The other guys might as well be a couple of people that I grew up with that were just awful people. The kind of people who always had something bad to say about nearly everybody else except the couple of followers they had. We are not talking 100 years ago but back in the 1970's well after we were all supposedly thrown into the melting pot. The attitude was bad to the point where kids who lived on the school district border did whatever they could so they could go to a different school. I was not so fortunate. The bottom line is that Tibs and his socks are not friends that are engaged in good natured chop busting. I'm not going to pretend otherwise.
sherpa Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 18 minutes ago, Foxx said: thank you. i also do not know with any certainty whether Hezbollah uses cultural centers to store command centers, train and house terrorists and/or to store munitions. I'm not going to quote the entire post, but what you are doing is expanding the thing beyond the Iranian borders. Everybody knows the use of human shields, cultural centers, hospitals and other sensitive areas that various groups use, knowing that such areas are almost always off limits to offensive response. My comments are strictly directed to Iranian soil, and they typically haven't done that. If the discussion expands to the entire world, this "trend" is certainly up for discussion, but I'm not going to comment on that.
John Adams Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 1 hour ago, RochesterRob said: You probably looked down at the Irish, Italians, and Catholics in your town growing up as did a couple of jerks I had to deal with growing up. OK Boomer. And...what the ***** are you talking about? How would my peer group matter to this discussion if I was a WASP from Westchester or an Irish Catholic kid from South Buffalo? You sound like a AOC with all your label obsession. 1 hour ago, RochesterRob said: You have a lot of work to do in order to place yourself in the moral penthouse that you imagine yourself to be in at present. I'm above no one. I'm just calling our administration on its immoral statements and behavior. Because they work for me.
DC Tom Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 1 minute ago, John Adams said: OK Boomer. And...what the ***** are you talking about? How would my peer group matter to this discussion if I was a WASP from Westchester or an Irish Catholic kid from South Buffalo? You sound like a AOC with all your label obsession. I'm above no one. I'm just calling our administration on its immoral statements and behavior. Because they work for me. I'm wracking my brain to recall the last time any administration exhibited moral statements and behavior. Probably 1990. Maybe.
John Adams Posted January 7, 2020 Posted January 7, 2020 Just now, DC Tom said: I'm wracking my brain to recall the last time any administration exhibited moral statements and behavior. Probably 1990. Maybe. Targeting cultural heritage sites is new. Intervening in military justice as directly as he did is new. Tying Sulimani to 9-11 though, that's a tried and true move, but still bull#### worth calling out.
Recommended Posts