Browns interview Brian Daboll for HC; have interest in pairing with Bills Asst. GM Joe Schoen

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

I think he would have.

 

The basis for the WCO is nothing more then an elongated hand off by passing to move the chains. In that style of offense you don't need much time in the pocket to throw the shorts.

 

So, Walsh would have never asked Allen to lead the league with deep throws. Asking Josh Allen to throw deep so often with that "horrendous" line was utterly moronic. Starting Nathan Peterman at QB that year was also utterly moronic. 

 

 

 

Do any of you defending Daboll honestly think he will come up with a game plan to beat the Texans, in Houston with JJ Watt playing? Should a miracle happen and the Bills defense gets many turnovers to somehow squeak by them... do any of you think the Bills will have the wherewithal to go to Kansas City, New England or Baltimore and put up enough offense to compete with them? 

 

The guy had extra time to game plan against the Ravens and he had no answer to stop the cover 0 blitz. Couldn't step up the protections? If they send 7, keep 7 in to defend. The offense isn't all just about Allen and the passing game. Its about the line, the receivers routes and getting open, its the run game too.

 

Making it "all" work on offense to over power the opponent...you know, kinda like what the Ravens do to all other teams. 

 

 

 

What?  Keep 7 to block?  What you do is identify the right read quickly...that's how you defend the blitz.

It would be so easy to defend the Bills offense if we just kept 7 into block every time a defense shows blitz.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Royale with Cheese

[Nihilarian]

57 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

The continuity argument was repeated endlessly during the DJ years, particularly after Buffalo had finished 2-8 in 2008.  That was only 2 months after the Bills extended Jauron's contract.

 

If something's not working, it's incumbent on management to make a change.  The Bills invested plenty of picks and UFA dollars on the offense and it's only produced the 23rd ranking in points scored.  They were 30th last year for reference.  

 

I don't see an innovative OC or someone with fresh ideas.  Perhaps that's the HC guiding the game-planning, who knows.  But Daboll's track record in Buffalo isn't one the supports the continuity argument.  The unknown (a new hire) could very well be a better option than continuity.  

I agree.

 

However, the HC guiding the game planning and Josh Allen doesn't throw 40 times a game...ever, at any point! If McD were guiding the offense all they would do is run the ball. Conservative is what he does! 

[Nihilarian]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

What?  Keep 7 to block?  What you do is identify the right read quickly...that's how you defend the blitz.

It would be so easy to defend the Bills offense if we just kept 7 into block every time a defense shows blitz LOL.  

from another thread,

 

Key points

-Patriots version of zero blitz is especially challenging because once a guy is blocked, he stops rushing and drops into coverage (if I'm not mistaken, the Ravens did this too).  He points out Mahomes last year held on to the ball waiting for stuff to come open which never did

-can beat zero blitz with screens, hot reads, or deep post

-deep post is most devastating response (and the one Kollsman is obviously highest on), but MUST max protect effectively to buy time.  If you don't max protect or the protection isn't effective, won't work

 

From the poster, "I would say similar things about our struggles with zero blitz: we don't max protect effectively to give time, we don't always seem to have hot routes (or the guy running what looks like it should be the hot route doesn't have his head around quickly).  When we tried to go deep, we didn't max protect effectively."

 

  

 

[BringBackOrton]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If you defend 7 by keeping 7 in you have lost already. Completely the wrong approach. I couldn't disagree with you more philosophically about how they need to run this offense. 

Talk about letting the defense dictate what you’re doing.

[Motorin']

Since Riv is out in Carolina, will Norv Turner be available if Daboll bolts? 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Nihilarian said:

from another thread,

 

Key points

-Patriots version of zero blitz is especially challenging because once a guy is blocked, he stops rushing and drops into coverage (if I'm not mistaken, the Ravens did this too).  He points out Mahomes last year held on to the ball waiting for stuff to come open which never did

-can beat zero blitz with screens, hot reads, or deep post

-deep post is most devastating response (and the one Kollsman is obviously highest on), but MUST max protect effectively to buy time.  If you don't max protect or the protection isn't effective, won't work

 

From the poster, "I would say similar things about our struggles with zero blitz: we don't max protect effectively to give time, we don't always seem to have hot routes (or the guy running what looks like it should be the hot route doesn't have his head around quickly).  When we tried to go deep, we didn't max protect effectively."

 

  

 

That dude doesn’t say max protect 7 if they send 7.

[Nihilarian]

2 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

That dude doesn’t say max protect 7 if they send 7.

Exactly how would you max protect? 

 

You have 5 O-linemen and with the TE, RB staying in that's 7 on 7. Whats the issue?

Edited December 31, 2019 by Nihilarian

[GG]

27 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Do you know what context means?

 

There really is no argument. Outside of a couple games, the Bills offense crawls into a shell in late in the games with leads due to fear of turning the ball over.... the Steelers and Patriots games are prime examples. 

 

Please explain how Bills went all conservative in 2nd half of Pats* game, or even after they took the lead?

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, Nihilarian said:

Exactly how would you max protect? 

I wouldn’t. It’s simple math. If they send 7, they only have 4 in coverage. You go empty. You motion the RB out. Now you have 4 on 5 and you can find the open guy. 

 

“Max protection” means that TE’s or RB’s are blocking edge rushers which is really really dumb. And you give away the game of numbers. You end up with 3 receivers and 4 defenders.

 

Stuff like this is so simple. It’s actually scary how many coaches don’t get it. 

[BuffaloBills916]

Please Please Brown Sign Him!! To be honest daboll has been okay at times I jus think Bills can do better at oc!

[Nihilarian]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

I wouldn’t. It’s simple math. If they send 7, they only have 4 in coverage. You go empty. You motion the RB out. Now you have 4 on 5 and you can find the open guy. 

 

“Max protection” means that TE’s or RB’s are blocking edge rushers which is really really dumb. And you give away the game of numbers. You end up with 3 receivers and 4 defenders.

 

Stuff like this is so simple. It’s actually scary how many coaches don’t get it. 

Well, Daboll must be one of those coaches who don't get it because he didn't max protect properly or take advantage of the less covered Bills receivers to burn the Ravens defense.

 

The Bills lost that home game 24-17 as Allen was sacked 6 times for 41 yards and went 17 of 39 for 146 yards, 1 TD. The players are only tools to make the offense work and if one part isn't working you don't keep hammering at that one part. Meaning If Allen is having a tough day, keep running Singletary who was averaging 5.2 yards per carry.

 

At one point in the first Bills series in the second quarter the Bills ran Singletary 6 straight times for two first downs and Allen ran for another. That drive ended with a Bills FG and negated the fierce Ravens blitzing. (out of 68 Buffalo offensive plays the Ravens Blitzed him 30 times). The very next series the Bills went back to passing again. 39 passes vs 23 rushes. 

[BeastMaster]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

The continuity argument was repeated endlessly during the DJ years, particularly after Buffalo had finished 2-8 in 2008.  That was only 2 months after the Bills extended Jauron's contract.

 

If something's not working, it's incumbent on management to make a change.  The Bills invested plenty of picks and UFA dollars on the offense and it's only produced the 23rd ranking in points scored.  They were 30th last year for reference.  

 

I don't see an innovative OC or someone with fresh ideas.  Perhaps that's the HC guiding the game-planning, who knows.  But Daboll's track record in Buffalo isn't one the supports the continuity argument.  The unknown (a new hire) could very well be a better option than continuity.  

Could also be worse.

 

I would be optimistic that we can find someone better, but it's no sure thing.

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I guess your just not understanding my point.

 

For the most part, the Bills consistently coach scared in certain situations offensively, such as in close games or when they hold a slight lead late. 

 

Down 10-7 against the Steelers after a Tre White INT to get the Bills to the Steelers 18 yard line they ran the ball 7 straight times to settle for a FG. After going up 17-13 against the Patriots, the Bills ran it 3 straight times on their next offensive possession and punted.

 

How many times have we seen this team kneel it to half time with the ball with 2-3 TOs and plenty of time to get more points before the half? 

 

Context matters.

 

 

Scott,

Lets talk about context.  We converted a first down on the first 3 carries after and the last carry was a QB sneak by Allen after it was 3rd and 1.

Then inside the 10, yes we did run it and lost yards.  3rd and goal from the 15....I'm not going to play them to take points on the road.  We were 6-2 on the road this year.

 

Yes the Bills ran it 3 times in the Patriots game but the last one was 3rd and 4 and it was Allen out of shotgun.  I don't remember if it was a designed run, Allen scrambling or Allen tucking it and running it when he was the blitz coming.  

You don't know the calls in the huddle.  You don't know when it's changed or hasn't.  Allen has the freedom to change and audible at the line.  We see it all the time but you will blame McDermott every time when it doesn't go right.

[Royale with Cheese]

38 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

from another thread,

 

Key points

-Patriots version of zero blitz is especially challenging because once a guy is blocked, he stops rushing and drops into coverage (if I'm not mistaken, the Ravens did this too).  He points out Mahomes last year held on to the ball waiting for stuff to come open which never did

-can beat zero blitz with screens, hot reads, or deep post

-deep post is most devastating response (and the one Kollsman is obviously highest on), but MUST max protect effectively to buy time.  If you don't max protect or the protection isn't effective, won't work

 

From the poster, "I would say similar things about our struggles with zero blitz: we don't max protect effectively to give time, we don't always seem to have hot routes (or the guy running what looks like it should be the hot route doesn't have his head around quickly).  When we tried to go deep, we didn't max protect effectively."

 

  

 

 

They give 3 points and you're only acknowledging 1.  The author doesn't say you max protect 100% of the time....he says in order for the deep post to work, you must max protect effectively.   You're the one saying that you need to max protect 100% of the time.

He says a screen can beat the Cover 0.  You're going to run screens out of max protect?  What about the hot route?  You need to max protect there?

[CorkScrewHill]

On getupESPN they were discussing the need for a leader of men .. they threw out Jack Del Rio and Jim Caldwell and then Domonique Foxworth threw out .... Rex Ryan who happened to be sitting across from him. Rex mentioned something about .. yeah someone who could win playoff games. Oh my the Browns would truly be must-see TV. Here is the link for the comedic value.  

 

[C.Biscuit97]

????????

 

browns fired Kitchens, only to hire his clone.  

[DCOrange]

Ultimately I think Daboll is an interesting candidate but I’ll be shocked if he’s chosen to replace Kitchens. I think Daboll’s stint as OC for Cleveland along with looking like Kitchens will anger fans a lot if he’s hired. Could be a more serious candidate for someone else instead though, though I think it’s probably a year early for him. 
 

IMO, next year he either gets fired here or he impresses enough to land a HC gig. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by DCOrange

[ArtVandalay]

I'm guessing the Browns like that E-P offensive system for Baker and they are doing due diligence on Daboll as a fall back if they can't get McDaniels who runs the same E-P style offense.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Of course, the one presser I don't watch and McD gives up info I really would like to hear.

LOL

 

It was Daboll and it still seems to be up on Twitter.  I think it's at 4:50

[Happy]

8 hours ago, Drunken Pygmy Goat said:

 

Remember back in training camp (maybe it was mini camp) when Josh Allen said that it was hard to overthrow WRs like John Brown??? I think you're right about letting the WRs run to the ball. Last year, many of the deep pass connections by Allen seemed to be underthrown balls that the WRs adjusted to. It was quite noticeable for me, just like Tyrod often taking deep shots in 3rd and short, and I think it was something that the coaches noticed and wanted to correct. It's obviously better to overthrow a 1 on 1 ball than it is to underthrow. By week 3 or so, the Bills and Allen failed to connect on 3 or 4 deep passes where the DB was beat for a TD, and the ball was overthrown...easy to connect the dots as to why. Partially mental, partial coached (and at times, part footwork/pressure). And I'm not simply referring to passes over 30 yards, I mean go routes against cover 1 specifically. That issue persisted throughout the season for the most part, until the last few games anyways.

 

As far as that happenening on 3rd an short, under Daboll/Allen, I don't recall any specific instances offhand. I'm sure its happened, but you make it sound as if it happened so many times that it's egregious. That was the case with Tyrod (no exaggeration), not Allen. 

 

Anyhow, I don't want to nit pick one comment you made earlier in the thread. Your main point now is that Daboll is holding Allen back, which may or may not be the case. Personally, I think Allen is still playing a bit "raw" at times, missing easy throws that are there to be made. He puts too much zip on the ball at times, making it that much more difficult for WRs on shorter routes. There have been several inexcusable drops this year, but some of those weren't all on the WR/TE. He also has been a bit late on reads at times, although that cannon arm has bailed him out in some of those instances. 

 

Those are just a couple of noticable issues with Allen. BUT, he is still less than two full seasons into his career. The issues he has right now are about what we should have expected to see from him at this point in his career. He was about as raw of an uber-talented prospect coming out as we've seen recently, and it was never going to be a fast progression/transition for him. And with a good defense to lean on, it didn't need to be fast.

 

In his first year, we learned that Allen is athletic enough to make plays with his feet, and that he has a "gamer" mentality. We already knew about the cannon arm. After that, there were a lot of areas that need improvement. I think most Bills fans will say that Allen is "better" as a passer this year, but still has a lot of work to do. There have been several plays left on the field this year, and not just 5 yard overthrows on deep TD passes. 

 

Perhaps Daboll is holding Allen back, but if the plays are there to be made, yet not being made, that's on the QB. We all complained about how many plays Tyrod left on the field on a consistent basis. Allen has already had his fair share, yet the narrative is a bit different for some reason. Granted, TT was more of a league veteran at the time than Allen currently is, but why is the narrative different when the situation is the same? Why does the guy calling the plays get flack when the play call and design was good, yet the players didn't execute? 

 

The way I see it, this team is just scratching the surface. Allen will hopefully continue to improve in areas that have held him and the offense back at times, and the roster on offense should improve as well, making life easier for Allen, and Daboll. 

 

I would like to hear a more detailed explaination as to how Daboll is holding Allen back. IMO, the fact that the Bills have a strong defense to lean on, and a bit of a conservative HC has "held back" Josh, in the sense that he is rarely tasked with carrying the team on his shoulders and willing the team to victory in a high scoring game. For the most part, Allen has done what he has been asked to: don't feel like you need to be the hero, and do just enough. Essentially, the offense is being called a certain way, for a reason, and it generally revolves around just how good your defense is at holding opponents to lower scores and getting off the field. 

 

I wouldn't lose sleep if Daboll leaves, but I would like to see him stay for a 3rd year. With a presumably better roster and a more refined Allen at QB, we will truly see how good Daboll is. Then again, a new OC would have the same benefit, albeit with possibly a new scheme and playbook for the players to first get a grip on. 

 

Great post.  Well thought out and I can't argue with your points.

 

I'll address the bolded parts;

 

As far as third and short, dialing up long passes; I recall this happened in a couple of different games throughout the season.  It's not as prevalent as say, running Gore around the tackle for a loss, but it really just serves as an example of how Daboll tends to outsmart himself.

 

The second bolded part regarding TT leaving plays on the field is a great point.  Both QBs do this, though I suspect for slightly different reasons.  Both TT and Josh seem to see the part of the field that is in front of them.  TT, for whatever reason, will never be able to fix this, I think it is a shortcoming of his.  Josh, I hope and believe, is missing the whole field because he is nervous and inexperienced.  His vision should widen as he gets more game experience.  You're right, the narrative isn't any different in either situation.  Also, true, I'm sure there are many occasions where the players didn't execute.  I don't have problems with Daboll's offense or his playbook, I have problems with some of the situations when he calls some of the plays he does; it can be absolutely maddening.

 

Daboll, from what I can see, is trying to make Josh more of a game manager, rather than allowing Josh to be who he is...a gunslinger.  Not comparing Josh to Tom Brady, but Daboll's offense is more geared to a mature QB, such as Brady.  Josh isn't ready to make the type of reads he needs to make, especially as to how they pertain to the WRs.  A big part of the E-P offense is the QB and WR being on the same page based on what the defender is doing and timing.  Josh isn't ready for that, nor are the WRs...most of whom are in the first year in this offense.  Earlier this season, I wouldn't have liked this idea, but Josh should be allowed to roll out, throw on the run, and take off running more than he is.  This is who he is right now; it can (and probably will) change in the future, but for now he is not a pocket passer first; plus he seems to be more accurate throwing on the run.  Josh is a dual threat and athletic QB, use it.  What would happen if the Ravens and John Harbaugh and Greg Roman insisted on confining Lamar Jackson to the pocket?  Nothing good.  The Ravens have an explosive offense that is hard to stop with the offense catered toward Lamar's natural abilities, with a HC who understands this.  Our offense could be a lot better than what it is; some of the problems are execution and a portion are play calling and opponent scheme.  Some of this could be McD (who really needs to understand the offense better than he does), and I wouldn't be surprised as he is by nature a conservative coach -- which is something he needs to outgrow, but I digress.

 

I'm all for a good defense and I think that is the most important thing a team can have.  But just because you have a good defense and want to lean on that, doesn't mean your offense should be anemic.  Make no mistake, our offense is anemic.  If your defense, for whatever reason, can't stop the opposing offense, blowouts occur; we've seen that once this year and numerous time the previous two years.  To sum it up, I think Daboll is married to his scheme as he thinks it should be; the weather, opposing team, our team's experience and abilities, do not seem to be a factor in his play calling.  That is why I don't think Daboll should be calling plays.  If he returns as the OC, fine, but I don't want him calling plays...he is not good at it.  Josh, right now anyway, needs to be more Brett Favre and less Tom Brady; it's who he is.