Mr. WEO Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/31/2019 at 6:58 PM, ArtVandalay said: Using the Forbes provided (estimated?) figures I took that #18 overall operating income figure a step further and ran the ROV for each team. Return on Valuation, using it as a similar metric to ROA (Return on Assets) since Forbes is providing valuations and not assets. ROV is your operating income as a percentage of your valuation, basically a way to compare the profitability of different sized/valued teams. The Buffalo Bills actually rank 7th in the NFL in Return on Valuation at 4.3%. Dallas is #1 at 7.6% followed by NE 5.9%, Hou 5.7%, NO 5.5%, Phi 4.9%, Bal 4.8%, then the Bills - remaining NFL teams are below the 4% threshold. That's outstanding. The bottom 5 ROVs are: Chi 1.8%, Cle 1.5%, GB 1.4%, Oak 1.0%, LAR 0.8%. Expand It is also true that the Bills have the among the highest % off their revenue coming form shared revenue (71%). This means they are among the top 3 most dependent on the league wide revenue sharing (the "free money") for income. Only their lack of debt keeps them high on your ROV list.
HalftimeAdjustment Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 1:56 AM, Mr. WEO said: It is also true that the Bills have the among the highest % off their revenue coming form shared revenue (71%). This means they are among the top 3 most dependent on the league wide revenue sharing (the "free money") for income. Only their lack of debt keeps them high on your ROV list. Expand Hey, lack of debt means lack of debt payments. They can accumulate the income over several years to offset future costs. I doubt the Pegulas are using the money, and there are no shareholders or analysts to worry about. If the team can earn $60-80M/yr that will go a long way towards a future stadium upgrade.
Mr. WEO Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 2:22 AM, HalftimeAdjustment said: Hey, lack of debt means lack of debt payments. They can accumulate the income over several years to offset future costs. I doubt the Pegulas are using the money, and there are no shareholders or analysts to worry about. If the team can earn $60-80M/yr that will go a long way towards a future stadium upgrade. Expand I hope so. We shouldn't have to pay for it.
ArtVandalay Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 1:56 AM, Mr. WEO said: It is also true that the Bills have the among the highest % off their revenue coming form shared revenue (71%). This means they are among the top 3 most dependent on the league wide revenue sharing (the "free money") for income. Only their lack of debt keeps them high on your ROV list. Expand Controlling expenses is just as important as generating revenue in profitability. Also, revenue sharing isn't "free money" it's earned by the league they are part of, they are part of the TV contracts and with a smaller local market they are the reason people like myself get Sunday Ticket out of market. I don't understand your effort to be so negative about their figures where there are lots of positives. Controlling debt, controlling expenses in a smaller company to generate better profitability is nothing to be ashamed about.
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/31/2019 at 6:07 AM, Boatdrinks said: Pricing power in that outdated stadium with fans exposed to the elements is minimal. A few more attractive games could see somewhat higher pricing, but not by a whole lot. Expand ....EXACTLY....WNY economy of scale isn't Dallas, Boston, etc.............
Saxum Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/31/2019 at 6:07 AM, Boatdrinks said: Pricing power in that outdated stadium with fans exposed to the elements is minimal. A few more attractive games could see somewhat higher pricing, but not by a whole lot. Expand As we have heard before the solution is a smaller stadium with lots of PSLs. Of course finding people to pay it is difficult but resellers will help selling the tickets to opposing fans who are willing to pay more. On 1/1/2020 at 3:58 AM, ArtVandalay said: Controlling expenses is just as important as generating revenue in profitability. Also, revenue sharing isn't "free money" it's earned by the league they are part of, they are part of the TV contracts and with a smaller local market they are the reason people like myself get Sunday Ticket out of market. I don't understand your effort to be so negative about their figures where there are lots of positives. Controlling debt, controlling expenses in a smaller company to generate better profitability is nothing to be ashamed about. Expand It is simple - he is a Pats troll. 1
JMF2006 Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/31/2019 at 3:02 AM, Mr. WEO said: They have done it every Fall for years. I don't know how they do it, but the NFL teams don't challenge their numbers. The Cowboys are massive earners, despite the stadium debt. The Bills make Jerry Jones pin money. Expand Why would they as they don`t have to answer to shareholders.
JMF2006 Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 The good news is that as long as they are making money and the Pegs are healthy this city will have 2 major professional sports teams Happy Healthy New Year to the Pegulas and Thank You
BarleyNY Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/31/2019 at 3:22 PM, ArtVandalay said: Bills, although last #28 in revenue at $386 MM, are actually 18th in Operating Income with $82 MM just under KC. Middle of the pack. Very good operation, an improvement from the revenue ranking I expected from them running lean in comparison. Again, this is Forbes and private companies so this is likely estimates. https://www.forbes.com/nfl-valuations/list/#header:operatingIncome_sortreverse:true Expand Yes, except for Green Bay. That’s public information, which the owners of the other 31 teams hate because their numbers are public. They are often used to to help estimate the finances for the other teams. 1
1ManRaid Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) We'd sell out more games with better weather and more than just the occasional road prime time/nationally televised game. Also getting screwed on the preseason schedule (both home games being the ones starters play the least) doesn't help wet the appetites for people to pick up early season tickets. *edit* Of course, consistent success helps too. Edited January 1, 2020 by 1ManRaid
Royale with Cheese Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 12/31/2019 at 6:58 PM, ArtVandalay said: Using the Forbes provided (estimated?) figures I took that #18 overall operating income figure a step further and ran the ROV for each team. Return on Valuation, using it as a similar metric to ROA (Return on Assets) since Forbes is providing valuations and not assets. ROV is your operating income as a percentage of your valuation, basically a way to compare the profitability of different sized/valued teams. The Buffalo Bills actually rank 7th in the NFL in Return on Valuation at 4.3%. Dallas is #1 at 7.6% followed by NE 5.9%, Hou 5.7%, NO 5.5%, Phi 4.9%, Bal 4.8%, then the Bills - remaining NFL teams are below the 4% threshold. That's outstanding. The bottom 5 ROVs are: Chi 1.8%, Cle 1.5%, GB 1.4%, Oak 1.0%, LAR 0.8%. Expand Nice work Buck Naked! Let me ask you this, if we get more nationally televised games next year, that would mean more revenue for us?
ArtVandalay Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 2:27 PM, Royale with Cheese said: Nice work Buck Naked! Let me ask you this, if we get more nationally televised games next year, that would mean more revenue for us? Expand Thanks! Not sure how that works though. But growing the brand is never a bad thing, just don't know how exactly those revenue dollars work.
Mr. WEO Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 2:22 AM, HalftimeAdjustment said: Hey, lack of debt means lack of debt payments. They can accumulate the income over several years to offset future costs. I doubt the Pegulas are using the money, and there are no shareholders or analysts to worry about. If the team can earn $60-80M/yr that will go a long way towards a future stadium upgrade. Expand Yup. On 1/1/2020 at 3:58 AM, ArtVandalay said: Controlling expenses is just as important as generating revenue in profitability. Also, revenue sharing isn't "free money" it's earned by the league they are part of, they are part of the TV contracts and with a smaller local market they are the reason people like myself get Sunday Ticket out of market. I don't understand your effort to be so negative about their figures where there are lots of positives. Controlling debt, controlling expenses in a smaller company to generate better profitability is nothing to be ashamed about. Expand I'm not being negative. Again, I'm responding to your first post about profit margins. It's economies of scale. Dallas has, due to it's larger scale and despite large debt, a massive earning advantage over a team like Buffalo, whos revenue is far more limited and dominated by shared revenue. Sure there are Bills fans getting the Sunday ticket but there are likely multiples of that in Cowboys, Steelers, Packers, etc fans. ANd Sunday ticket is a small fraction of the TV revenue. The network money is the real money. STadium ticket money is estimated to be 8%-15% of the average team's margin--and the % of total revenue has gone down every year since 2010. Even so, teams with relatively cheap tickets get to benefit from the teams that have far more robust demand for pricier seats as non-suite ticket revenue has to be shared by the home with the visitor. Pegula made more money playing the Cowboys in Dallas than had they played in Buffalo. Shared revenue is pretty much free money for every team. The vast majority of it is a prepaid fee by the networks so it is not earned by each team based on the desirability or marketability of its product. There are few if any businesses where one company will profit from the more marketable and popular product of a competitor. In addition to an even split of TV money, The Bills have made annual profits in the tens of millions for years, despite only 3 winning seasons in the past 20. That's pretty much is the definition of free money. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Mr. WEO Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 (edited) On 1/1/2020 at 1:34 PM, 1ManRaid said: We'd sell out more games with better weather and more than just the occasional road prime time/nationally televised game. Also getting screwed on the preseason schedule (both home games being the ones starters play the least) doesn't help wet the appetites for people to pick up early season tickets. *edit* Of course, consistent success helps too. Expand Weather isn't a factor in other cold weather NFL cities. It's not a factor in Buffalo. On 1/1/2020 at 2:27 PM, Royale with Cheese said: Nice work Buck Naked! Let me ask you this, if we get more nationally televised games next year, that would mean more revenue for us? Expand The revenue is set until the next contract. The only way a nationally televised game results in more revenue for a team is if it results in more team merchandise sold or more sellouts at subsequent games. Edited January 1, 2020 by Mr. WEO 1
Boatdrinks Posted January 1, 2020 Posted January 1, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 2:01 PM, BUFFALOBART said: ...Might be the reason that the Pegulas are treading water carefully with regard to building a new stadium. W/O significant public money, their fairly cozy operating income numbers just might gravitate towards red ink. The 'outdated stadium' does its part in keeping the team in WNY. Expand Yes, significant public money would be required in the building of a new stadium for the Bills. Yes, the “ free” but outdated digs in which the team currently plays helps the bottom line. For now. It’s a problem, but one that I believe will get resolved and result in a new stadium sometime in the next ten years.
Chandler#81 Posted January 2, 2020 Posted January 2, 2020 On 1/1/2020 at 3:58 AM, ArtVandalay said: Controlling expenses is just as important as generating revenue in profitability. Also, revenue sharing isn't "free money" it's earned by the league they are part of, they are part of the TV contracts and with a smaller local market they are the reason people like myself get Sunday Ticket out of market. I don't understand your effort to be so negative about their figures where there are lots of positives. Controlling debt, controlling expenses in a smaller company to generate better profitability is nothing to be ashamed about. Expand Weo’s New Years Resolution was to be more tolerant and accepting of his fellow man. That lasted about 11 hours..
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