[Edited title] Duke williams should play

[LABILLBACKER]

9 hours ago, Steptide said:

Remember when people said duke wasn't starting because he's slow and doesnt get seperation, but then he has a hundred yards recieving with a backup qb? Ya, start the man. I think he's earned it 

What's funny/ironic is that McDermott said in his presser yesterday how popular he is with the fans. So he definitely knows we all want him in there(not that fan opinion matters). 

I'd love to be a fly on the wall and know who exactly wanted Duke to sit most of the season? McD or Daboll?

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

You talkin ta me?  ?

Actually it's called I'm agreeing with you. 

[3rdand12]

On 12/29/2019 at 7:05 PM, Livinginthepast said:

This makes perfect sense. But that's exactly why Mcd and Daboll wont do it!

you cannot pay Kroft that much and then sit him. Sweeney needs another year to learn from him actually. Knox needs to take notes as well.
Keep in mind , the Bills picked up Kroft before they had such good luck in the draft. And TE was a dire need.

 No longer i say !

[3rdand12]

11 hours ago, Steptide said:

Remember when people said duke wasn't starting because he's slow and doesnt get seperation, but then he has a hundred yards recieving with a backup qb? Ya, start the man. I think he's earned it 

What's funny/ironic is that McDermott said in his presser yesterday how popular he is with the fans. So he definitely knows we all want him in there(not that fan opinion matters). 

because you are rathers wise, lets keep in mind that Barkley and Williams have been catch all fall. 

 They have a fine rapport going.
So that was a showing of two guys getting their groove on.
 Does Allen make good use of Duke again ?

 

said it half season ago. those two should be spending after school hours getting to know each other.
Seems like a perfect match.
i do not expect Foster on the Bills roster next season for multiple reasons

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Any coach that takes 2 entire years to release players like Peterman & Jones is not exactly a ringing endorsement on his evaluation skills. And stop with the ST and "Duke was doing the right things in practice" nonsense. Belichick wouldn't tolerate guys like Foster, Roberts, McKenzie underperforming. Keep benching Duke and you'll get what you deserve. 

It may have nothing to do with evaluation.

  might be he is developing Kids to be Men. Hand up , if you will.
be more charitable this coming year

: )
 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

I’m not looking at just one game, and that’s kinda my point, with Williams on the field with Brown and Beasley, they would compliment each other better than with Mckenzie, it is a more threatening line up, use McKenzie for the short pass run plays, he is good on those, but he is a lesser receiver, he isn’t going to out physical any dB after a catch or for a catch for that matter.  I guess I’m sayin we are not using our current players to our best advantage, Sean and/or Brian are missing the boat on this, and its frustrating as hell to watch them not use what we have more effectively. 

I don’t think we are particularly far apart in our overall view of this. 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

I'm not looking at one game either.  I posted statistics on Williams 3 previous games, and on McKensie's games this season (he was inactive for one of Williams)

It appears to me that McKensie, in fact, has contributed more than Williams *in games* and thus won the start.

 

You can't just use McKensie for the short pass run plays like the Jet Sweep or he becomes a "tell" and the other team keys on it.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

you cannot pay Kroft that much and then sit him. Sweeney needs another year to learn from him actually. Knox needs to take notes as well.
Keep in mind , the Bills picked up Kroft before they had such good luck in the draft. And TE was a dire need.

 No longer i say !

 

Sure you can.  In fact, they typically have been.  Knox won the starting TE job over him, and Hard Knox ain't giving it back.

Kroft has been getting about 30% of the snaps recently, with a low of 18% vs Dallas and a high of 43% against the Browns.

 

Kroft is a more developed blocker than Knox (who can block, just not Judon - have I said that before?). 

Sweeney has a lot to learn.

 

[GG]

12 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But you simply can't look at what Williams did yesterday with the 3 top targets INACTIVE and project that to his production in regular games.

 

 

It’s a funny coincidence to see this thread and the Kelvin B poll next to one another.  Duke fits the rationale for making that trade in the first place, and he’s delivered what’s been expected.   But it’s silly to think that Duke can take McKenzie’s spot on the roster.  McKittrick is much more vital to the overall offensive flow.  

 

When you put Duke in, there’s no guessing game in an obvious passing down.  We’re going to throw to this guy and he will beat up your CB.   There are at least 2-3 times this season I wish he was in the line up.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

31 minutes ago, GG said:

It’s a funny coincidence to see this thread and the Kelvin B poll next to one another.  Duke fits the rationale for making that trade in the first place, and he’s delivered what’s been expected.   But it’s silly to think that Duke can take McKenzie’s spot on the roster.  McKittrick is much more vital to the overall offensive flow.  

 

When you put Duke in, there’s no guessing game in an obvious passing down.  We’re going to throw to this guy and he will beat up your CB.   There are at least 2-3 times this season I wish he was in the line up.

 

The point is, John Brown and Cole Beasley will remain the top targets.  They will be the guys getting 5-7 targets per game.  Knox will remain a key player and get ~3-4 targets/game.

 

Duke will not get 12 targets per game when the 3 top targets are active.  He simply won't.  He'll get at most the 4 or the 1 or the 2 targets he got in the previous 3 games he was active.

 

Would he be a better target for some of the contested throws that have gone Brown or Beasley's way?  Perhaps.  But he has to get off the line clean and get the route run fast enough, and he can't make stupid mistakes like running a route short of the down marker or doing a celebratory dance for a 1st down that costs us a time out 'cuz he isn't back at the line.

[GG]

7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Duke will not get 12 targets per game when the 3 top targets are active.  He simply won't.  He'll get at most the 4 or the 1 or the 2 targets he got in the previous 3 games he was active.

 

Duke is purely a situational player, who shouldn’t see more than 6-8 plays a game, in obvious passing situations.  That would get him, maybe 3 targets.  But those targets are in critical situations and create a hard matchup for the defenders.

 

Think of it from a DC’s standpoint.  Bills are facing a critical 3rd or 4th down conversion of more than 7 yards.  Right now, you can be a lot more aggressive in going after Josh, because you know there’s a very low probability that any of the Bills receivers can make a contested catch in single coverage.   With Duke in the pattern, that equation possibly changes.  

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

45 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Duke is purely a situational player, who shouldn’t see more than 6-8 plays a game, in obvious passing situations.  That would get him, maybe 3 targets.  But those targets are in critical situations and create a hard matchup for the defenders.

 

Think of it from a DC’s standpoint.  Bills are facing a critical 3rd or 4th down conversion of more than 7 yards.  Right now, you can be a lot more aggressive in going after Josh, because you know there’s a very low probability that any of the Bills receivers can make a contested catch in single coverage.   With Duke in the pattern, that equation possibly changes.  

 

 

Joe B has a pretty good assessment of "think of it from the Bills Team standpoint" in his post-game assessment at the Athletic

https://theathletic.com/1495266/2019/12/29/7-observations-from-bills-jets-can-duke-williams-rise-up-the-depth-chart-and-the-bills-dodge-disaster-from-injuries/?source=shared-article   (paywall, trial available)

 

With all the snaps he could have wanted, wide receiver Duke Williams (...) turned 12 targets into six receptions for 108 yards and was a critical piece to moving the ball downfield quickly at the end of the game. Williams did make some mistakes — a pair of drops and running short of the first-down marker on a third-down reception, but he was the most productive offensive player for the Bills on Sunday. However, was it enough to have a role in Houston?

 

It’s not impossible, but several factors are working against it — (....)

It’s easy to look at the box score, see Williams’ stat line as compared with Foster and conclude the players decided for them. However, it’s much more complex between those two players. Foster has become a dependable asset to both the punt and kickoff coverage units — an area that Williams struggled in his two active games before this one. It has been an ongoing process through the year to find the right formula on special teams, and the Bills have been in a good place for several weeks now. Especially with the injury to Wallace, that likely takes Kevin Johnson out of the punt gunner mix due to fear of injury. It isn’t impossible, but the Bills have placed a premium on special teams — and they aren’t the types to make rash reactions after only one game.
 

McKenzie is another potential inactive because he doesn’t offer much on special teams, but Williams can’t do what McKenzie brings to an offense. It wasn’t a coincidence that offensive coordinator Brian Daboll ran two separate jet sweeps for McKenzie in Week 17. He wants the Texans to have that threat in their minds to open up yards on the opposite side of the formation. Daboll has used McKenzie as a chess piece since Week 8, and it would be a relative surprise to see them go away from it in the playoffs. The other option is Roberts, who is the team’s primary kick and punt returner. The Bills have felt that they’re close to breaking a big special teams play, which adds value and team-based logic to Roberts being active. If Roberts’ injury doesn’t improve in time for the game, Williams will likely get the call.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

57 minutes ago, GG said:

 

Duke is purely a situational player, who shouldn’t see more than 6-8 plays a game, in obvious passing situations.  That would get him, maybe 3 targets.  But those targets are in critical situations and create a hard matchup for the defenders.

 

Think of it from a DC’s standpoint.  Bills are facing a critical 3rd or 4th down conversion of more than 7 yards.  Right now, you can be a lot more aggressive in going after Josh, because you know there’s a very low probability that any of the Bills receivers can make a contested catch in single coverage.   With Duke in the pattern, that equation possibly changes.  

 

I'll take 1 fade target in the corner of the endzone. If it results in a td it was worth whatever shovel pass McKenzie gets. Besides the argument should be replacing Foster with Duke, not McKenzie. 

[Don Otreply]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not looking at one game either.  I posted statistics on Williams 3 previous games, and on McKensie's games this season (he was inactive for one of Williams)

It appears to me that McKensie, in fact, has contributed more than Williams *in games* and thus won the start.

 

You can't just use McKensie for the short pass run plays like the Jet Sweep or he becomes a "tell" and the other team keys on it.

 

One could use that to ones advantage, it comes back to using players to your advantage, there are times when a DW type receiver is the better option, one also might find that if DW was active for more than four games he would show even better...just sayin

 

Go Bills!!!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

One could use that to ones advantage, it comes back to using players to your advantage, there are times when a DW type receiver is the better option, one also might find that if DW was active for more than four games he would show even better...just sayin

 

Go Bills!!!

 

I think it comes back to you only get to dress 46 and you need to fill positions in all 3 phases.

6 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'll take 1 fade target in the corner of the endzone. If it results in a td it was worth whatever shovel pass McKenzie gets. Besides the argument should be replacing Foster with Duke, not McKenzie. 

 

Once again...the ST coordinator gets a vote

[Don Otreply]

43 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think it comes back to you only get to dress 46 and you need to fill positions in all 3 phases.

 

Once again...the ST coordinator gets a vote

How is it that STs is a higher priority than the offense scoring points? Our STs is bad presently so inserting DW for instance isn’t gonna change things to any great degree, and at the same time help a struggling offense, just sayin... yes, they are doing it wrong, 

 

Go Bills!!!

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think it comes back to you only get to dress 46 and you need to fill positions in all 3 phases.

 

Once again...the ST coordinator gets a vote

Stop with this stupid ST argument. You do realize that over 80% of all ST plays result in touchbacks or fair catches. If I had a good #3 wr (who Duke is) I'd find other players to fill my ST squad. And I also don't buy this nonsense that Duke can't play ST. These coaches are just being stupid & stubborn in wasting targets on Foster, Roberts & McKenzie. In 3 games Duke has more yards than Foster and Roberts combined being activated 12-14 games.

[Bulldog]

All these vocal Duke Williams groupies are something else - I have no idea if Duke would light it up if the coaches give him the opportunity against the Texans - however, I do know that if I ever had half of the vocal supporters that Williams has, I might feel like I was member of the Beatles. Even so -- I would be thrilled if Duke had the winning touchdown catch in the game Saturday -- because all I care about is winning! Duke - if you get the chance, take advantage of it & deliver for us!

[JESSEFEFFER]

I'll trust Joe Marino's take.  He says it's not Duke over McKenzie or Foster.  It's Duke over Kurt Coleman as the roster choice.  Also, I have not heard/read any evaluation of Duke's run blocking post Jets game but I thought it was very good against the Titans.  I prefer physical tenacity over finesse in most offensive situations.  I'd think he could win most any matchup vs. a DB3.

[3rdand12]

13 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Sure you can.  In fact, they typically have been.  Knox won the starting TE job over him, and Hard Knox ain't giving it back.

Kroft has been getting about 30% of the snaps recently, with a low of 18% vs Dallas and a high of 43% against the Browns.

 

Kroft is a more developed blocker than Knox (who can block, just not Judon - have I said that before?). 

Sweeney has a lot to learn.

 

I suppose i was speaking to next year on Kroft, Hapless.

Agreed about Knox

 and agreed about Sweeney

No knocks on Kroft, but i would like to see Sweeney staring next year ( earning it of course) and Williams the #4.

 Foster is missing something up there i feel.
 

Good points about the reps. : )

 

[hemma]

Not that we get a vote, but I'd rather see Williams over Foster for catching and blocking

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, hemma said:

Not that we get a vote, but I'd rather see Williams over Foster for catching and blocking

 

Heath whats-his-name would rather see Foster over everybody for "gunner", apparently.

[3rdand12]

11 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'll take 1 fade target in the corner of the endzone. If it results in a td it was worth whatever shovel pass McKenzie gets. Besides the argument should be replacing Foster with Duke, not McKenzie. 

Duke needs to add more some value to STs it seems. end of story for McD.
Not my choice. But so be it

Edited December 31, 2019 by 3rdand12