Brian Daboll cost us the division title

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So Brian Daboll is to blame for the rookie right tackle being completely blown up on two plays? I can't tell what the play calls were on either of those downs and nor can anybody because a player failed to execute the basics twice.

The first down play was terrible & as I say caused a chain reaction that carried through downs 2-4.  A young qb needs easier reads & plays.  The Duke Williams TD vs. Tennessee was a very simple play.

[Happy]

I don't think Daboll cost us the division.  I do think he made things harder than need be with his odd play calling and largely omitting higher percentage plays such as screens.  It's like Daboll is on a mission to prove he can outsmart everyone else; yet the only person he outsmarts is himself.

[GunnerBill]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

The first down play was terrible & as I say caused a chain reaction that carried through downs 2-4.  A young qb needs easier reads & plays.  The Duke Williams TD vs. Tennessee was a very simple play.

 

I didn't love the designed run on 1st down either but if you are literally saying that one call cost us the game I have to disagree. The second down was an excellent call the TE was there wide open and Allen overthrew him. Third down they did actually have Brown running a slant from the widest receiver spot and he came open.  I have no idea if he was the first read on the play or if it was designed to go elsewhere because we never saw it as Ford got blown up and Allen was trying to escape.

 

The difference between that play and the touchdown in Tennessee was twofold and it was not Duke Williams - it was:

 

a) game situation; and

b) defensive scheme.

 

In terms of game situation the Williams touchdown came off a run fake. The Bills had run it effectively that day and the time on the clock and down and distance meant that the Bills could fake the run and the Titans legitimately had to play the run. That in turn affects the options the defense can run. The Pats, able to pretty much discount the hand off, in that situation sent pressure and got home. The Titans, still wary that the Bills can run in that situation, went 4 man rush with cover 2 behind. The corner's job is to direct Williams to the inside into traffic which he does but the safety had bitten on the run fake and jumped up which meant it was an easy throw and catch... it certainly wasn't an example of Duke being a contested catch machine. That was as uncontested as you can get in the endzone - it was good play calling, the blocking held up and a well executed fake.

[Rocbillsfan1]

15 hours ago, BillsFanSD said:

Every offensive coordinator since Ted Marchibroda has been the most hated man in Buffalo.  Some things never change.

I remember a few of us were ok with Anthony Lynn maybe we can bring him back.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

I don't think Daboll cost us the division.  I do think he made things harder than need be with his odd play calling and largely omitting higher percentage plays such as screens.  It's like Daboll is on a mission to prove he can outsmart everyone else; yet the only person he outsmarts is himself.

 

They have tried to run screens - especially early in the season. But the Bills just do not execute them very well. The first wo plays even yesterday were screens. One to Gore and then a bubble screen to McKenzie. The problem I see with the way the Bills run screens is they don't sell anything else very well. The best screen teams - New England and New Orleans always jump out at you, run the screen so effectively because they make you think something else is coming. Josh and our Oline telegraph our screens. There is work for Daboll to do there if he is still here to put some more disguise in there but it also comes down to the players executing them better.

[Happy]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They have tried to run screens - especially early in the season. But the Bills just do not execute them very well. The first wo plays even yesterday were screens. One to Gore and then a bubble screen to McKenzie. The problem I see with the way the Bills run screens is they don't sell anything else very well. The best screen teams - New England and New Orleans always jump out at you, run the screen so effectively because they make you think something else is coming. Josh and our Oline telegraph our screens. There is work for Daboll to do there if he is still here to put some more disguise in there but it also comes down to the players executing them better.

 

Could it be the players don't execute them better is because screens aren't stressed or practiced during the week?  NE looks like they practice their bubble screens every day for three hours (I exaggerate), that is how effective they are.   There are four to five guys in front blocking for the back or receiver who get the screen and the play typically goes for 10+ yards. I have no idea what is not appealing about that where Daboll can't make it a staple of the offense.  The McKenzie jet sweep is fine, but we really are a one trick pony.

[Phil The Thrill]

I can’t wait to get my Brian Daboll coach’s jersey because he’s going nowhere.  

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

Could it be the players don't execute them better is because screens aren't stressed or practiced during the week?  NE looks like they practice their bubble screens every day for three hours (I exaggerate), that is how effective they are.   There are four to five guys in front blocking for the back or receiver who get the screen and the play typically goes for 10+ yards. I have no idea what is not appealing about that where Daboll can't make it a staple of the offense.  The McKenzie jet sweep is fine, but we really are a one trick pony.

 

Maybe it is, I don't know. But one of the reasons I suspect we don't run more of them (and we do run more than you would believe by reading this board) is that we generally have not executed them well. We run the McKenzie sweep more because we have generally executed it much better. Maybe they need to practice it more, maybe they need to design them better or calibrate them more with other plays in their playbook, maybe they need to call them at better times and maybe the players just have to do a better job. I suspect it is a combination of all of those factors.

[Warren Zevon]

Nonsense.

 

Daboll helped develop the #3 QB off the board, and one most pundits called a "project," into the 2nd best QB of his class so far. If Allen makes a couple more throws this season (One of the bombs in the Ravens game, hits Knox @ New England, anything @ Cleveland) Buffalo wins the AFC East and Daboll would be a favorite for a head coaching job. 

 

I hope McBean does as much as they can to Keep Allen and Daboll together for the foreseeable future.

[Billsfan1972]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I didn't love the designed run on 1st down either but if you are literally saying that one call cost us the game I have to disagree. The second down was an excellent call the TE was there wide open and Allen overthrew him. Third down they did actually have Brown running a slant from the widest receiver spot and he came open.  I have no idea if he was the first read on the play or if it was designed to go elsewhere because we never saw it as Ford got blown up and Allen was trying to escape.

 

The difference between that play and the touchdown in Tennessee was twofold and it was not Duke Williams - it was:

 

a) game situation; and

b) defensive scheme.

 

In terms of game situation the Williams touchdown came off a run fake. The Bills had run it effectively that day and the time on the clock and down and distance meant that the Bills could fake the run and the Titans legitimately had to play the run. That in turn affects the options the defense can run. The Pats, able to pretty much discount the hand off, in that situation sent pressure and got home. The Titans, still wary that the Bills can run in that situation, went 4 man rush with cover 2 behind. The corner's job is to direct Williams to the inside into traffic which he does but the safety had bitten on the run fake and jumped up which meant it was an easy throw and catch... it certainly wasn't an example of Duke being a contested catch machine. That was as uncontested as you can get in the endzone - it was good play calling, the blocking held up and a well executed fake.

Won't argue, just will say NE saw us running way too often, so how about that on first down (play action).  The ball to Knox was there but not that easy a throw that people keep saying.  

 

Many here say keep it simple and they just don't and thus Allen is throwing tougher passes in many situations.

 

Also on 4th they had a TO, should have used it.....   As said in watching they looked disorganized once first & goal.  

[Warren Zevon]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Won't argue, just will say NE saw us running way too often, so how about that on first down (play action).  The ball to Knox was there but not that easy a throw that people keep saying.  

 

How about the ball to Knox in the first quarter? The first throw of the game.

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Won't argue, just will say NE saw us running way too often, so how about that on first down (play action).  The ball to Knox was there but not that easy a throw that people keep saying.  

 

Many here say keep it simple and they just don't and thus Allen is throwing tougher passes in many situations.

 

Also on 4th they had a TO, should have used it.....   As said in watching they looked disorganized once first & goal.  

 

Agree they should have used their time out before 4th down. That was on McDermott. TOs are HC not OC. I suspect he was keeping it because he was worried about the time left on the clock and needing it on defense for a critical 4th down to keep the Pats out of FG range but I think worry about that when you get there. The critical part is scoring the equalising touchdown. Call TO and make sure you are calling the best play you have on your call sheet.

[BADOLBILZ]

41 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They have tried to run screens - especially early in the season. But the Bills just do not execute them very well. The first wo plays even yesterday were screens. One to Gore and then a bubble screen to McKenzie. The problem I see with the way the Bills run screens is they don't sell anything else very well. The best screen teams - New England and New Orleans always jump out at you, run the screen so effectively because they make you think something else is coming. Josh and our Oline telegraph our screens. There is work for Daboll to do there if he is still here to put some more disguise in there but it also comes down to the players executing them better.

 

 

It's easy to make excuses.........I've tried to rationalize why Daboll isn't as bad as the numbers say he is...........but ultimately your OC has to create a system where there is synergy created and it's not happening.   I think if you take a step back you gotta' admit.........it's an indictment of coaching when you have been in a place for two years and you can't even run screen plays effectively.    I am loathe to change OC's again so I hope they get top 10 skill player talent around Allen next year so the offense can be good regardless of Daboll's chronic inability to create rhythm or any kind of identity offensively thru his coaching.

Edited December 30, 2019 by BADOLBILZ

[colin]

Dabol is a bad OC.  My evidence for this is on every NFL team he has had an OC role with, he had bad numbers.

 

we have plenty of deficiencies on O, but the biggest flaw on our team is that we simply do not have a concrete offensive identity.  trying to ram the ball on 3rd and 4th and short w gore and failing, or not ever running screens well (although that looked a little different vs the jets w yeldon, but of course that guy doesn't dress for games) is what a team that is just throwing stuff against the wall and hoping some sticks does.

 

several players have commented that the O we run is the most complicated they've ever seen.  baltimore (and us before w roman, and SF before that) had a very simple O (with lots of trickery and it does take forever to get the plays in and line up, i'll grant that).  NE's O is the same stuff over and over w some misdireciton.  we do not have the talent nor the cohesion to be running the most complicated O our players have ever seen.  the problem with a complicated O is that you don't get enough time to practice things to get the down pat, so you get missed blocks, pre snap penalties, and the like.

 

dabol is the ultimate young coach with a million ideas who is not getting them executed at a high level.  the solution is to keep the bread and butter plays that you can always go to and run well, challenging the D to play perfectly.

 

further evidence of this is that we are nearly the best in the nfl at 3rd and long.  that is not a function of how well our O is called (3rd and makable being the norm is evidence of a well run O) but of the fact that Josh is a special talent who can extend plays and run for first downs as well as thread the needle into tight windows, and the fact that WRs, while tiny, are hard to cover for long stretches.  

 

our red zone success is basically a function of Josh running, or his threat of running, which is not a coaching thing.  we need more talent on O (i'd say one or even two new OL, and one new WR and another RB although yeldon should be an upgrade) but we just don't have any blitz beating ability or ways to get solid dependable yards on first and second down, and that's scheme and practicing the scheme as much as it is a talent deficit.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

It's easy to make excuses.........I've tried to rationalize why Daboll isn't as bad as the numbers say he is...........but ultimately your OC has to create a system where there is synergy created and it's not happening.   I think if you take a step back you gotta' admit.........it's an indictment of coaching when you have been in a place for two years and you can't even run screen plays effectively.    I am loathe to change OC's again so I hope they get top skill player 10 talent around Allen next year so the offense can be good regardless of Daboll's chronic inability to create rhythm or any kind of identity offensively thru his coaching.

 

I am not standing here absolving Daboll from blame. There is plenty wrong with the offense - but I just don't think canning him at this stage is the right answer. I also would like to see another year of stability and another year of consistency in the coaching for Josh. Next year is the critical one for Josh in my view. If he takes another step we have a franchise QB. If he regresses or progress stalls then the Bills have to seriously consider what plan B is if things haven't taken an upswing by the end of Josh's rookie deal.

[BADOLBILZ]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I am not standing here absolving Daboll from blame. There is plenty wrong with the offense - but I just don't think canning him at this stage is the right answer. I also would like to see another year of stability and another year of consistency in the coaching for Josh. Next year is the critical one for Josh in my view. If he takes another step we have a franchise QB. If he regresses or progress stalls then the Bills have to seriously consider what plan B is if things haven't taken an upswing by the end of Josh's rookie deal.

 

 

Yeah it's a really bad time to change OC's.    I am not advocating for a change because of what you mention.........I'd like to see Allen stay in the same system.   But Daboll is time-tested as a low producing OC.  After a couple seasons here you can see why.    They are just going to have to raise the talent level considerably.   

[Billsatlastin2018]

It’s fair to say that most Bills fans have close to zero confidence in Daboll’s game plans leading us to victory.

 

Fortunately, the confidence level is higher about Allen.

Unfortunately, he can’t... yet...ignore Daboll’s idiocy! 

[Mr. K]

None of us thought the Dolphins were going to pull it out. If the Bills dont have the punt block in game 1 vs the pats* and take care of them in game 2 and handle their business against Cleveland it would have been what we all want; The Bills to win the AFC East without help. I personally enjoyed all of the stress free football yesterday but still thought about the division then remembered its time for the playoffs.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Mr. K

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yeah it's a really bad time to change OC's.    I am not advocating for a change because of what you mention.........I'd like to see Allen stay in the same system.   But Daboll is time-tested as a low producing OC.  After a couple seasons here you can see why.    They are just going to have to raise the talent level considerably.   

 

Yea. They need a top end receiver talent (likely from the draft), a right tackle (I think they have to slide Ford inside - that can come via draft or FA) and a properly viable 2nd running back that isn't 104 years old. I wouldn't be adverse to another tight end either but equally I am willing to show some patience in Knox.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They need two good WRs, IMO. 

 

Id add another good pass rusher to that list as well. 

 

Pass rusher is a given, but I was only focussing on offense.