Josh Allen Stat ... wow

[Billy Claude]

Mark Sanchez and 5 QBs who turn it on in the 4th quarter

 

Article from 2011 on 4th quarter qbs; 1.  Sanchez. 2.  Tebow. 3.  Romo. 4.  Rodgers. 5.  Brady. 6.  E. Manning

The difference between the first two and the last four was that the latter were also good in the first three quarters.

 

Allen has a unique skill set and shown great progress but imho he is, at present, a slightly below average starting qb.  However he has shown he can learn I have optimism that he will get better.  However if he is where he is right now next year it will be severely disappointing.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Billy Claude

[Lenigmusx]

22 hours ago, london_bills said:

Yes a good thing. Fair enough! 

 

Only thing I will say is I don't think he's always consciously tried to overthrow receivers. I do think that can play in yeah but sometimes I think it's a combination of his arm strength and adrenaline at seeing an open receiver making him overthrow. He's a compelling player as he's an emotional person playing a position where being unemotional can arguably help you more. 

Would you say that Jim Kelly and John Elway were not emotional players? Dan Marino and Joe Montana were very even but I think fire can be a good thing if properly harnessed. 

[Lenigmusx]

7 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

4 - 300+ yard games

23 PASSING Tds

2700+ passing yards

62.1 completion percentage 

88.9 Qbr

 

In 11 starts... 

 

Better than Allen in practically every single statistical category and he's a Rookie on a horrible team. 

 

Id call that shredding it. 

 

Well of course forgetting the most important statistical category.... Wins and Losses?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, TwistofFate said:

Jones has put on multiple passing clinics this year.   He just threw for over 300 and 5tds in his 11th start. 

In all honesty that is the kind of performance you expect from a franchise guy taken in the top 10.

 

OK, so then the G-men should be happy.  They're getting what they wanted from their #6 pick.

 

Quote

If you really want to compare apples to apples compare their rookie seasons. 

 

Why?  Allen wasn't supposed to start.  He was said by all who was supposed to be a raw prospect who wasn't supposed to start, and was thrown into the fire.  He had no OL, no WR, and no run game.  Looks to me as though Jones has all of those things (see below)

 

Quote

I don't think people really understand what I mean about accuracy.   Its more than just his percentage.   Its ball placement, throwing receivers open and making anticipatory throws before recievers come out of their breaks.  There have been tons of completions that have been made by guys jumping in the dirt, through the air, etc.

 

You know, if you wanted to go through a game or put up some clips or whatever and make that argument, fine.  I don't watch Giants games.  You may be right.  Maybe "Danny Dimes" is just amazeballs and is leaving all other young QB in the dust left by his spirals.  On the other hand, maybe he isn't - like I said, I haven't seen his games.

 

But that wasn't the argument you were advancing here.  You were talking about 15 ypg and 3% completion percentage higher and metrics that I don't find value in personally (total QBR and # 300 yd games) and talking about how Daniel Jones is "shredding the league" on that basis.  That's not a particularly great argument for "shredding", and when someone points out undesireable stats where Jones is leading (fumbles) or respected stats where he isn't (ANY/A), your response is not to acknowledge, but to shift the field.

 

Now we aren't talking about stats, we're talking about gaudy games and the "eyeball test". 

 

Running my eyes down the stat sheet, it looks to me like they're running a different kind of passing game - I see a 1st round RB and a 1st round TE with a lot of targets and 92 YPG, 2 decent to good vet WR in Shepard and Tate so it seems as though he's got a pretty good set of weapons, and I see that Jones is pretty evenly split between air yards and YAC.  The Giants have been trying to improve their OL since Shurmer walked in the door.  Solder is pretty good; with 2 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick as well as a couple vets on it, maybe they've succeeded.

It looks to me as though Jones put on his "clinics" against 3 struggling teams, Washington (x2), Tampa, and the Jets. Against NE in week 6, he had 48% completions, 161 yds, and 3 INTs - Hmmmm.  Against GB, 54% completions and 3 INTs.  Against Chicago, no INTs so good on him but only 150 yds.  Hmmm.

 

I think I'm out of here now- I don't think you have a genuine interest in actual football convo.  I could be mistaken, I'll live with it.

 

5 hours ago, Pokebball said:

You think of Baker is a victim of the mess. Others would argue that he is part of the cause of the mess.

 

That tends to be my impression, but could just be me.

 

And I guess maybe you.  And...and ...and ...

[Hapless Bills Fan]

23 hours ago, london_bills said:

Only thing I will say is I don't think he's always consciously tried to overthrow receivers. I do think that can play in yeah but sometimes I think it's a combination of his arm strength and adrenaline at seeing an open receiver making him overthrow. He's a compelling player as he's an emotional person playing a position where being unemotional can arguably help you more. 

 

I don't think Allen's long overthrows have too much to do with being an emotional player, myself.  I go with Kubiak and @Buffalo716 who say technique, technique, technique plus continuing to develop his ability to throw from a muddled pocket.  Hopefully he'll work on it in the off season.

 

I think he has some other misfires that might be the result of being a bit amped up, but they're not the bombs (from what I've seen).

[FeelingOnYouboty]

On 12/23/2019 at 10:53 PM, BfloBillsFan said:

I’ve liked his progress this season.  Hope he takes more steps and can become a top 10-12 QB

that’s what we should be aiming at. 

[BurpleBull]

If Daboll were to ever be let go, the one thing that I think he'd have to get props for, is being instrumental in getting Allen to cut back on his reckless habits, by grilling him after a boneheaded play.

[whorlnut]

17 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I said years ago that fans cant handle having a rookie QB.  If he doesn't look like Brady right away they think he is garbage.  News Flash... not many QBs come out looking like Mahomes in their first couple years.

Not to mention that some fans hold it against Allen because the Bills traded the pick that the Chiefs used on Mahomes. They also fail to realize that Mahomes at 10 was a HUGE reach at the time. 

[Kelly the Dog]

20 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, what do you call a checkdown route?   What precedes it, what characterizes it?  Making sure we're on the same page.

A checkdown route is just as the name implies. When you delay or more often block for the passer, and then release as his last resort, usually close to the QB or starting toward the flat. It is the last progression (although you do not need to go through all of them to get to the checkdown, depending on the rush(. You just dump it off under pressure. The Bills throw all different kinds of passes to Singletary, including him spread out and running regular patterns, swing passes, flat passes, screen passes, even a bubble screen once in awhile. But Josh rarely steps back, sees nothing open, and then just dumps the ball off to Singletary. It happens, just not very often at all. QBs especially do this on 3rd and longs. Josh rarely if ever does that. He almost always tries for the first down. Other QBs pad stats tremendously with checkdown passes. He doesn't. And didn't in college either.

[NoSaint]

14 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

OK, so then the G-men should be happy.  They're getting what they wanted from their #6 pick.

 

 

Why?  Allen wasn't supposed to start.  He was said by all who was supposed to be a raw prospect who wasn't supposed to start, and was thrown into the fire.  He had no OL, no WR, and no run game.  Looks to me as though Jones has all of those things (see below)

 

 

You know, if you wanted to go through a game or put up some clips or whatever and make that argument, fine.  I don't watch Giants games.  You may be right.  Maybe "Danny Dimes" is just amazeballs and is leaving all other young QB in the dust left by his spirals.  On the other hand, maybe he isn't - like I said, I haven't seen his games.

 

But that wasn't the argument you were advancing here.  You were talking about 15 ypg and 3% completion percentage higher and metrics that I don't find value in personally (total QBR and # 300 yd games) and talking about how Daniel Jones is "shredding the league" on that basis.  That's not a particularly great argument for "shredding", and when someone points out undesireable stats where Jones is leading (fumbles) or respected stats where he isn't (ANY/A), your response is not to acknowledge, but to shift the field.

 

Now we aren't talking about stats, we're talking about gaudy games and the "eyeball test". 

 

Running my eyes down the stat sheet, it looks to me like they're running a different kind of passing game - I see a 1st round RB and a 1st round TE with a lot of targets and 92 YPG, 2 decent to good vet WR in Shepard and Tate so it seems as though he's got a pretty good set of weapons, and I see that Jones is pretty evenly split between air yards and YAC.  The Giants have been trying to improve their OL since Shurmer walked in the door.  Solder is pretty good; with 2 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick as well as a couple vets on it, maybe they've succeeded.

It looks to me as though Jones put on his "clinics" against 3 struggling teams, Washington (x2), Tampa, and the Jets. Against NE in week 6, he had 48% completions, 161 yds, and 3 INTs - Hmmmm.  Against GB, 54% completions and 3 INTs.  Against Chicago, no INTs so good on him but only 150 yds.  Hmmm.

 

I think I'm out of here now- I don't think you have a genuine interest in actual football convo.  I could be mistaken, I'll live with it.

 

 

That tends to be my impression, but could just be me.

 

And I guess maybe you.  And...and ...and ...

a top 10 pick is 100% expected to start. Essentially none in the last 20 years has sat the season.

[GoBills808]

26 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

A checkdown route is just as the name implies. When you delay or more often block for the passer, and then release as his last resort, usually close to the QB or starting toward the flat. It is the last progression (although you do not need to go through all of them to get to the checkdown, depending on the rush(. You just dump it off under pressure. The Bills throw all different kinds of passes to Singletary, including him spread out and running regular patterns, swing passes, flat passes, screen passes, even a bubble screen once in awhile. But Josh rarely steps back, sees nothing open, and then just dumps the ball off to Singletary. It happens, just not very often at all. QBs especially do this on 3rd and longs. Josh rarely if ever does that. He almost always tries for the first down. Other QBs pad stats tremendously with checkdown passes. He doesn't. And didn't in college either.

IE how the Vikings use Dalvin Cook in their passing offense

[syhuang]

10 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

a top 10 pick is 100% expected to start. Essentially none in the last 20 years has sat the season.

it has more to do with QB situation consider teams drafting a QB in top 10 usually have a big hole in QB position. When others says “not expected to start”, they refer to how raw a QB is. However, even some of these top 10 QBs are raw and aren’t starting immediately after draft per coach’s plan, they are often forced into play later in the first year due to non-optimal QB situation.

 

on the other hand, with better QB situation, Mahomes did pretty much sit out the first season. You can argue he actually started the meaningless last game of the season so technically he didn’t sit out, but we all know it’s to let him gain experience and see game action in a meaningless game. In the playoff game next week, Alex Smith started again.

[NoSaint]

30 minutes ago, syhuang said:

it has more to do with QB situation consider teams drafting a QB in top 10 usually have a big hole in QB position. When others says “not expected to start”, they refer to how raw a QB is. However, even some of these top 10 QBs are raw and aren’t starting immediately after draft per coach’s plan, they are often forced into play later in the first year due to non-optimal QB situation.

 

on the other hand, with better QB situation, Mahomes did pretty much sit out the first season. You can argue he actually started the meaningless last game of the season so technically he didn’t sit out, but we all know it’s to let him gain experience and see game action in a meaningless game. In the playoff game next week, Alex Smith started again.

mahomes is, fairly, an exception. But the point that you don’t draft a guy top 10 expecting him to sit in the modern Nfl is one I stand by.
 

And as much as everyone said that was Allen, he did not sit. Frankly going into the season with he, peterman and McCarron- And dealing AJ... I don’t think they tried all that hard to avoid it. 

 

It’s just not reality to get one that high and not see him play. There’s a little noise around the data, as with anything, but I’m comfortable saying it’s materially true. 

[syhuang]

20 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

mahomes is, fairly, an exception. But the point that you don’t draft a guy top 10 expecting him to sit in the modern Nfl is one I stand by.
 

And as much as everyone said that was Allen, he did not sit. Frankly going into the season with he, peterman and McCarron- And dealing AJ... I don’t think they tried all that hard to avoid it. 

 

It’s just not reality to get one that high and not see him play. There’s a little noise around the data, as with anything, but I’m comfortable saying it’s materially true. 

 

I guess we can agree to disagree. In my opinion it has more to do with the QB situation that even the top 10 rookie QBs are considered raw and the plan was to sit out the first season, they are mostly forced to play later in the first year. Mahomes’s case is an exception that although he was drafted in top 10, Chiefs had a much better QB situation then. He is not an exception due to he is the only QB considered raw and expected to sit out the rookie season.

Edited December 25, 2019 by syhuang

[NoSaint]

6 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

I guess we can agree to disagree. In my opinion it has more to do with the QB situation that even the top 10 rookie QBs are considered raw and the plan was to sit out the first season, they are mostly forced to play later in the first year. Mahomes’s case is an exception that although he was drafted in top 10, Chiefs had a much better QB situation then. He is not an exception due to he is the only QB considered raw and expected to sit out the rookie season.

If Allen was expected to sit out the entire season you must’ve been mighty upset about us not creating a better qb situation around him
 

Either beane was negligent, or he didn’t agree with you on the plan that he would be sitting. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Kelly the Dog said:

A checkdown route is just as the name implies. When you delay or more often block for the passer, and then release as his last resort, usually close to the QB or starting toward the flat. It is the last progression (although you do not need to go through all of them to get to the checkdown, depending on the rush(. You just dump it off under pressure. The Bills throw all different kinds of passes to Singletary, including him spread out and running regular patterns, swing passes, flat passes, screen passes, even a bubble screen once in awhile. But Josh rarely steps back, sees nothing open, and then just dumps the ball off to Singletary. It happens, just not very often at all. QBs especially do this on 3rd and longs. Josh rarely if ever does that. He almost always tries for the first down. Other QBs pad stats tremendously with checkdown passes. He doesn't. And didn't in college either.

 

OK.  Making sure we're on the same page here.  Then I see checkdown routes quite frequently.  It's usually Singletary, occasionally DiMarco or Kroft.  Don't see Smith or Gore used that way often, though there was 1.  It's correct that Josh doesn't *take* them very often, but he does sometimes.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

a top 10 pick is 100% expected to start. Essentially none in the last 20 years has sat the season.

 

Well just off the top of my head … Mahomes, Goff, Eli

Edited December 25, 2019 by Scott7975

[syhuang]

33 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

If Allen was expected to sit out the entire season you must’ve been mighty upset about us not creating a better qb situation around him
 

Either beane was negligent, or he didn’t agree with you on the plan that he would be sitting. 

 

Or it’s possible he considered the better QBs in FA market are overpriced and the term is too long, but that’s the not point whether what Beane did in that offseason can be used to prove who is right.

 

I think I may know the root culprit of this discussion. Basically when others said a rookie QB isn’t expected to start the first season, they mean the QB is raw. Most of the time these QBs are forced to action due to non optimal QB situation. On the other hand, when you see others said a rookie is not expected to start, your take is that the QB situation often doesn’t allow the rookie to sit out the first year or as long as the coach prefer even he is raw.

 

if this indeed your interpretation, your take is inline with others. On the other hand, if you are arguing whether a top 10 rookie is as raw as others, there is really no way to prove who is right consider the QB situation of a team also plays a major role on whether a rookie is playing.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2019 by syhuang

[Scott7975]

34 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

If Allen was expected to sit out the entire season you must’ve been mighty upset about us not creating a better qb situation around him
 

Either beane was negligent, or he didn’t agree with you on the plan that he would be sitting. 

 

I don't know that they planned for him to sit the whole season or not.  What I do know is they had a plan to start him until they felt he was ready.  Here is something McD said before week 1 last year...

 

Quote

"Josh Allen is on schedule," McDermott said, per the team's official site. "I've been pleased with his development, and I know he'll be ready if his number is called."

 

They had a plan.  That plan didn't include rushing him on the field just because they drafted him.

Edited December 25, 2019 by Scott7975

[NoSaint]

15 minutes ago, syhuang said:

 

Or it’s possible he considered the better QBs in FA market are overpriced and the term is too long, but that’s the not point whether Beane agreed with me or not.

 

I think I may know the root culprit of this discussion. Basically when others said a rookie QB isn’t expected to start the first season, they mean the QB is raw. Most of the time these QBs are forced to action due to non optimal QB situation. On the other hand, when you see others said a rookie is not expected to start, your take is that the QB situation often doesn’t allow the rookie to sit out the first year or as long as the coach prefer even he is raw.

 

if this indeed your interpretation, your take is inline with others. On the other hand, if you are arguing whether a top 10 rookie is as raw as others, there is really no way to prove who is right consider the QB situation of a team also plays a major role on whether a rookie is playing.

 

 

one might argue if a guy is THAT raw there are questions about him going that high. 

9 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I don't know that they planned for him to sit the whole season or not.  What I do know is they had a plan to start him when they felt he was ready.  Here is something McD said before week 1 last year...

 

 

They had a plan.  That plan didn't include rushing him on the field just because they drafted him.

you can quote any interview you want. 
 

they went into the season with peterman and Allen. Either they were criminally negligent or they didn’t expect him to sit the whole season from pretty early in the process.