Has there been a "great" coach who is clearly conservative?

[Billsfan1972]

10 minutes ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Thats what fans think.  The Bills should be able to win if the offense scores 17 pts

At least many here on TBD.....  Make no mistakes, score 17 and let the D do the rest.......  

 

All week we heard how smart they were doing that vs. Pitt......

8 minutes ago, dubs said:

You have to be fully brain dead to actually believe that.

 

thats not even to say I agree with some of the play calling, but to think the bills coaching staff is thinking they are good up 4 with a quarter left to play is asinine. 

And that's exactly how they played the following series up 17-13.....  Three straight run plays & a punt.......  Then at 17-16 again a 1 yard run on first down to put them in a hole.....

Edited December 22, 2019 by Billsfan1972

[Adamb412]

7 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

You bring up a good point, which is the definition of conservative. McVay sometimes does do that but his offense is not conservative. He lets Wade run his defense which is not overly conservative. McDermott, to me, is conservative by nature and the vast majority of the time in many ways. Not always. 

Exactly when tony Dungy coached peyton, their offense was aggressive but when it came to 4th and inches 4th and shorts tony either punted or took FGs 99% of the time

[Kelly the Dog]

6 minutes ago, Tcali said:

he was very good. not every coach who wins a SB is great

Isaiah and the rest of the crazies. And probbly my fave Bill of all time..Ben Williams 

1980 was one of the very best Bills teams in their history. They were the best team in the league IMO. In no way were they conservative. To me, in their entire history (not counting 64 and 65 when it was impossible to tell), the only two years they were the best team in the entire league was 1980 and the first Super Bowl team against the Giants.  

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Adamb412 said:

Exactly when tony Dungy coached peyton, their offense was aggressive but when it came to 4th and inches 4th and shorts tony either punted or took FGs 99% of the time

That's a smart coach because he knows they can score. That is not a conservative coach. You have to look at the whole game and strategy on both sides of the ball. 

[Max Fischer]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Tony dungy and the colts? What was that like 10 years ago?

 

I like McDermott, but the conservative offense is ridiculous. It's a ***** joke. This isn't 1970s football. You can't sit on leads.

Ok, I’ll bite, when did they “sit on” the lead?

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Max Fischer said:

Ok, I’ll bite, when did they “sit on” the lead?

Today?

[Max Fischer]

2 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Today?

 

Specially, what was this egregious scenario?

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Max Fischer said:

 

Specially, what was this egregious scenario?

It's not egregious. It's a philosophy. They never go for the kill. They almost always run on first down. The three big plays of the game were the bomb to Knox, the bomb to Brown and the TD to Dawkins. I'm NOT lobbying to call trick plays all the time. What I'm saying is Josh Allen is a playmaker not a game manager. And he excels when he is unbridled more than run, run, pass, punt. 

[Max Fischer]

I don’t think anyone would call Belichick conservative but they have dominated the league on dink and dunk, moving the chains. Once the Bills took the lead they had two possessions. The first was in the 3rd when Patriots barely stopped Allen on third down run and the other they indeed attempted two long passes. One turned into a sack and the other didn’t connect. Personally, I would have preferred a series of short plays to get first downs but neither possession could be characterized as “sitting on the lead” in the 3rd quarter and early in the 4th. 

[Hebert19]

Bill cowher

[Kelly the Dog]

16 minutes ago, Hebert19 said:

Bill cowher

He wasn't overly conservative at all. They always had an aggressive defense. When he didn't have the guns on offense he let Kordell Stewart run wild. I think people in this thread are confusing coaches that are defensive guys from the start, versus guys like McDermott who are defensive coaches but their conservative nature extends to the offense more than the defense. The Bills are not an aggressive team at all. 

[Coach Tuesday]

I don’t even know anymore.  They have a bunch of overachievers at the skill positions, no passrushers and horrible special teams.  Plus a wildly inconsistent QB who can’t make basic rhythm throws but is capable of ridiculous feats of athleticism.  Given all of that McD seems like he’s doing the best he can.  For the most part.  But then again all of that context falls on him as well, he built this situation.  It’s just a weird situation. 
 

43 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

It's not egregious. It's a philosophy. They never go for the kill. They almost always run on first down. The three big plays of the game were the bomb to Knox, the bomb to Brown and the TD to Dawkins. I'm NOT lobbying to call trick plays all the time. What I'm saying is Josh Allen is a playmaker not a game manager. And he excels when he is unbridled more than run, run, pass, punt. 

I guess.  At some point you need to chew up some clock and impose your will and trust your well-paid offensive line to take the game over.  These guys may just be soft.

Edited December 22, 2019 by Coach Tuesday

[BringBackOrton]

2 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I'm trying to think of one. In any sport. 

 

Don't make this a hate McDermott stance or thread. I like him. I'm glad we have him. But it's arguable that his blatant conservative nature holds this team back. 

 

There are no facts. This is ALL opinion. And some of his conservative nature surely helps. We're 10-5 and will likely finish 11-5. 

 

But the object is to win it all. Josh is a unique talent. We need to score more points or there is little chance to win it all and that is the object. 

 

I think he needs to relinquish some of his dearly held nature in order to be great. I don't think you can be great without a killer instinct. 

This topic hinges on the philosophy that coaches don’t change their approach based on their personnel. It’s just a coincidence that BB “became conservative” when Brissett was under center. It’s a coincidence that Rivera became an aggressive coach when Cam was playing like an MVP. It’s a coincidence that the Tebow-Broncos were conservative.

 

Here’s my counter question. What HC has been super aggressive and successful without a good QB? I’ll hang up and listen.

Edited December 22, 2019 by BringBackOrton

[Kelly the Dog]

9 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I don’t even know anymore.  They have a bunch of overachievers at the skill positions, no passrushers and horrible special teams.  Plus a wildly inconsistent QB who can’t make basic rhythm throws but is capable of ridiculous feats of athleticism.  Given all of that McD seems like he’s doing the best he can.  For the most part.  But then again all of that context falls on him as well, he built this situation.  It’s just a weird situation. 
 

I guess.  At some point you need to chew up some clock and impose your will and trust your well-paid offensive line to take the game over.  These guys may just be soft.

Agreed. But they are clearly not that team yet. The object is to win it all. I understand that sometimes, like this season, you play the long game, which they did. The conservative nature clearly helped them to some degree. But THIS GAME, once they already were in the playoffs, was about greatness, and overthrowing the Patriots, and going for broke. The only way you do that, to me, is to go for the kill. This was the easiest game of the season to go for the kill. The loss was meaningless. The gain, however, is potentially immeasurable. That's the whole idea of aggressiveness and gambling. Risk versus reward. There was no risk. McD just genuinely believes he can win it all like this. I'm not sure. That's the point of the thread. 

4 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

This topic hinges on the philosophy that coaches don’t change their approach based on their personnel. It’s just a coincidence that BB “became conservative” when Brissett was under center. It’s a coincidence that Rivera became an aggressive coach when Cam was playing like an MVP. It’s a coincidence that the Tebow-Broncos were conservative.

 

Here’s my counter question. What HC has been super aggressive and successful without a good QB? I’ll hang up and listen.

That's a very good point. But McD went with Nathan Peterman. He's conservative with a non-conservative QB. He's conservative on D now with explosive blitzers and when he got more aggressive they got WAY better, and then he didn't do it today. 

[Boatdrinks]

Tom Landry dressed very conservatively. 

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Boatdrinks said:

Tom Landry dressed very conservatively. 

I thought he was snazzy.

[BillsVet]

2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Chuck Noll, Chuck Knox, Bud Grant...

 

All of the "conservative coaches" named in this thread have been out of the league 30+ years. (OK, Noll retired after '91).  Come on people, the game has changed dramatically over that time. 

 

2 hours ago, Phil The Thrill said:

Just take the L man.  He shut you down.  Live to fight another day

 

Phil, your takes are not thrilling.  If fact, I'd characterize them as poorly researched and vapid. 

 

1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said:

At least many here on TBD.....  Make no mistakes, score 17 and let the D do the rest.......  

 

Let's go back to McD's first comments to the media at the Combine in February.  I distinctly remember hearing him say they needed to score 21 points per to have a shot at winning games.  It was his way of blunting criticism about the anemic 2018 offense that was downright horrible the first half of the season and rallied somewhat in the second.  (Cue the people who said they didn't have enough cap room to spend on offense last off-season).  

 

Yet, here we are in 2019 and In only 6 of their 15 games have they reached or exceeded that mark: at NYG, vs CIN, vs MIA, vs WAS, at MIA, and at DAL.  

 

I don't see the offense as really improving much from the start of the season to now.  

[Buffalo Barbarian]

3 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

I'm trying to think of one. In any sport. 

 

Don't make this a hate McDermott stance or thread. I like him. I'm glad we have him. But it's arguable that his blatant conservative nature holds this team back. 

 

There are no facts. This is ALL opinion. And some of his conservative nature surely helps. We're 10-5 and will likely finish 11-5. 

 

But the object is to win it all. Josh is a unique talent. We need to score more points or there is little chance to win it all and that is the object. 

 

I think he needs to relinquish some of his dearly held nature in order to be great. I don't think you can be great without a killer instinct. 

 

I've been thinking the same thing all day. 

 

i truly love McDermott and everything he has done here but we wont go far in any playoff playing not to lose and burn the clock the whole game.

 

This offense plays best in the Hurry Up and why he doesn't let them do that is beyond me. If we ran that today we beat the patriots. That first drive told me we weren't likely to win the game as we didn't jump on thye right away,  we huddled, took our time ran every play and when we had to Josh's first pass was an overthrow in the endzone. For whatever reason Josh does better when he has a sense of urgency and he throws it best in the hurry up.

 

 

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

I've been thinking the same thing all day. 

 

i truly love McDermott and everything he has done here but we wont go far in any playoff playing not to lose and burn the clock the whole game.

 

This offense plays best in the Hurry Up and why he doesn't let them do that is beyond me. If we ran that today we beat the patriots. That first drive told me we weren't likely to win the game as we didn't jump on thye right away,  we huddled, took our time ran every play and when we had to Josh's first pass was an overthrow in the endzone. For whatever reason Josh does better when he has a sense of urgency and he throws it best in the hurry up.

 

 

It seems so obvious. The only reason it may not be true.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

3 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Yes. Some guy named Lombardi.

 

yeah 50 years ago. The days of read and react are long over, you have to attack on offense and defense if you want win deep in the playoffs. We need to dictate to to our opponent not the other way around.