dave mcbride Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, SoTier said: Nobody is denying that Allen needs to be better, by a lot in some respects. However, given where he is in his career, where we are in the season, and quality of the personnel on the Bills offense, he's become a "good enough" NFL QB for this particular Bills team. He has limitations, but his leadership and clutch play have made up for those limitations in most games. A team that's serious about making the playoffs can't afford a QB who's likely to repeatedly turn over the ball in most games, no matter how many passing TDs the QB throws. Winston is essentially playing the same way as a fifth year player as he did as a second year player. He's never improved his most serious flaw: throwing to the wrong team. There is absolutely no evidence that bringing in Bruce Arians -- an alleged QB whisperer -- has significantly improved Winston's play. Franchising Winston is simply a waste of time and money. The Bucs need to move on. Agreed. I've been very critical of Beane and McDermott for the lack of talent on offense (including coaching) -- and it's effect on Allen's development and success. The Bills are trying to compete with offensive juggernauts with way too many players who were late draft picks or UDFAs. Those guys in general tend to be significantly less talented than guys taken in the first. Not many offensive playmakers come out of the ranks of Day 3 picks or undrafted players. The Bills absolutely need to stop treating the offense as a "red headed stepchild". They need to re-sign 2 or 3 of the OLers that they signed in 2019 to 1 year contracts. On the OL, continuity counts for a lot. They need to add a big, sure-handed veteran receiver (WR or TE). They need to sign or draft a better RB than Gore and Yeldon. They need to use their first round pick -- and maybe their second rounder as well -- on the offense, hopefully finding a playmaker. Have you watched the Bucs over the last 4 games or so? If you had, you might be rethinking what you say above about Winston. That offense is a juggernaut right now. He is better than the naysayers suggest, and he has shown a lot of improvement over the course of the season. Basically, the dominant narrative around him is stale and not all that reflective of current reality. (Also, re: your argument about throwing to the wrong team, Mike Martz always thought that was overrated and didn't care if Kurt Warner threw a reasonably large number of INTs (short-ish punts, in his book).) I'm certainly not advocating INTs, but it is undeniable that the Bucs' offense has turned a corner. They have averaged 35 ppg over the last four games, and they are simply better than their record. They lost to Seattle in OT in a game they shouldn't have lost, and they lost to the Giants because their kicker missed a chip shot at the end of the game. I agree with you about Allen. He is still very young. Edited December 20, 2019 by dave mcbride
Teddy KGB Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, JaCrispy said: Really? Just 3? Lamar Jackson has had 3 games this year where he has thrown for 5 td in each...time to expect more Bills fans...JA made great strides this year but he still remains a bottom of the league passer...we still need to see a lot better next year... Singletary can run the other 2 in
teef Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said: When a single team out of 32 can't do something that is achievable by every single team in the NFL at a minimum 1X/year with all manner of QB's & you are the only outlier not 1, not 2 but 3 years, you better have been deep into the playoffs, with a very good w/l % & be just smarter then anyone. You need offense to win many an NFL game........ You & the Bills seem very myopic not to realize that. you shouldn't be calling anyone mypoic...at all. 1
Billsfan1972 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Teddy KGB said: When do we strip the bears, ravens, giants, and Steelers of their super bowl rings won by defense ? All had offenses that were better then the Bills..... BTW the 1985 Bears were #2 Offense in the NFL, Baltimore #14, Giants too very muich in the top third their two wins...... Yes Defense may have won the SB, but offense was good in the regular season & playoffs. Boy you guys have no idea that offense is important too.
oldmanfan Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said: All had offenses that were better then the Bills..... BTW the 1985 Bears were #2 Offense in the NFL, Baltimore #14, Giants too very muich in the top third their two wins...... Yes Defense may have won the SB, but offense was good in the regular season & playoffs. Boy you guys have no idea that offense is important too. Yes we do. What we get is that offense does not correlate to 300 yard passing games, nor do wins. As you have been shown time and time again. You need help.
Billsfan1972 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, teef said: you shouldn't be calling anyone mypoic...at all. I have freely admitted that the offense is my obsession with a "competent" offense, which we haven't seen since McD came in and gutted it.
Billsfan1972 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Yes we do. What we get is that offense does not correlate to 300 yard passing games, nor do wins. As you have been shown time and time again. You need help. Again I'd say the same with you disciples of McD..... This team has no idea how to run the offense imo. You need a good offense plain & simple.
JaCrispy Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 46 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said: Singletary can run the other 2 in Deal ? 1
DuckyBoys Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said: To get to the Superbowl both teams leaned heavily on theior offenses. If they were averaging Buffalo #'s and a offense in the lower third, I expect there would havbe been no SB. BTW find me a Bad Offense (lower third of the league) that has made the SB in the last 20 years.... 2015 Broncos and 2000 Ravens right off the top of my head Both had abysmal offenses
oldmanfan Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 40 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: I have freely admitted that the offense is my obsession with a "competent" offense, which we haven't seen since McD came in and gutted it. Why do all of us have to deal with your obsession?
Billsfan1972 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, DuckyBoys said: 2015 Broncos and 2000 Ravens right off the top of my head Both had abysmal offenses Wrong on Both!!!!!! 2014 Denver was #2 & dropped in 2015 due to Manning being injured half the season. Baltimore was 14th in 2000..... Congratulations you found two of the lowest ranked offenses. Find me a bottom 10 Offense that made the SB? The majority of teams making the SB have a top 10 offense. Proves nothing.... Huh???? Quickly SB teams Offensive ranks... 2009 1 vs. 7 2010 10 vs. 12 2011 3 vs. 9 2012 10 vs. 11 2013 1 vs. 9 2014 1 vs. 10 2015 1 vs. 19 2016 1 vs. 3 2017 2 vs. 3 2018 2 vs. 4 So in total 11 of 20 were top 4..... 5 more top 10...... Yep good/great offenses every year..... Edited December 20, 2019 by Billsfan1972
billsfan1959 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 15 hours ago, BigDingus said: He plays almost identical to the way he did last season. This is beyond an inability to be objective in your analyses of Allen - it is a flat out out refusal to be objective. 4
oldmanfan Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Wrong on Both!!!!!! 2014 Denver was #2 & dropped in 2015 due to Manning being injured half the season. Baltimore was 14th in 2000..... Congratulations you found two of the lowest ranked offenses. Find me a bottom 10 Offense that made the SB? The majority of teams making the SB have a top 10 offense. Proves nothing.... Huh???? Quickly SB teams Offensive ranks... 2009 1 vs. 7 2010 10 vs. 12 2011 3 vs. 9 2012 10 vs. 11 2013 1 vs. 9 2014 1 vs. 10 2015 1 vs. 19 2016 1 vs. 3 2017 2 vs. 3 2018 2 vs. 4 Yep good/great offenses every year..... https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/9r7q6x/the_last_25_super_bowl_champions_and_their/ What it shows is some have good offenses and good defenses, some are bad offense and great D, and vice versa. So you are cherry picking again.
DuckyBoys Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 8 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Wrong on Both!!!!!! 2014 Denver was #2 & dropped in 2015 due to Manning being injured half the season. Baltimore was 14th in 2000..... Congratulations you found two of the lowest ranked offenses. Find me a bottom 10 Offense that made the SB? The majority of teams making the SB have a top 10 offense. Proves nothing.... Huh???? Quickly SB teams Offensive ranks... 2009 1 vs. 7 2010 10 vs. 12 2011 3 vs. 9 2012 10 vs. 11 2013 1 vs. 9 2014 1 vs. 10 2015 1 vs. 19 2016 1 vs. 3 2017 2 vs. 3 2018 2 vs. 4 Yep good/great offenses every year..... ravens 2000 offense scored 29 tds in 16 games Bills have 32 in 14 games Both of those teams had abysmal offenses Dilfer was beyond terrible and Manning was a shell of himself The 2019 Bills offense is a juggernaut compared to those two teams
Teddy KGB Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Billsfan1972 said: Boy you guys have no idea that offense is important too.
Billsfan1972 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comments/9r7q6x/the_last_25_super_bowl_champions_and_their/ What it shows is some have good offenses and good defenses, some are bad offense and great D, and vice versa. So you are cherry picking again. How is the last 10 SB's "Cherry Picking"....... Pretty simple & straightforward. 2015 Broncos had an injured Manning & along with Baltimore were as stated outliers & still better then Buffalo..... Here is my reference.... 2000 Baltimore 22 passing, 5 rushing, 14 in points. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2000/index.htm Denver 2015 14 passing, 15 rushing...... Not the 2014 offense but perfectly capable. Stick with the facts..... Edited December 20, 2019 by Billsfan1972
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 2 hours ago, oldmanfan said: And there are different ways to win with offense, such as a thing called running the ball. And there are different ways to win football games, such as with defense. Defense wins championships, always has, always will. What this comes down to is this: you have publicly stated you don't like the way the Bills are playing because to you it is not entertaining. You want to be entertained by a lot of yards throwing the ball. Apparently winning football games is not entertaining to you, given the 10-4 record. You claim winning football with a 10-4 record is comical just because they don't happen to run an offense you like. So you have choices to make. You can either continue to rant and howl at the moon, and remind everyone here of the definition of insanity. Or you can change your view of what is entertaining, embrace the fact that the Bills have a team that plays suffocating defense and an offense that places emphasis on running and a conservative passing game designed to not turn the ball over, and actually enjoy the run they are making this season. Or if being entertained by a ton of passing yards is what gets you off, then change you allegiance and root for, say, Tampa Bay, where they throw for a ton of yards, an ton of picks, and are going home in a couple weeks. I used to be a fan watching for the ooooohs and aaaaaahhs of those long balls. Loved Darryl Lamonica. I never played football, I just learned the positions and some of the plays talking to my Grandpa who was athletic but never played but street stuff. My perspective changed in the late '80s- '90s living outside of Buffalo in the age of VCR. My fam in B'lo used to record the televised games and send them to me. They'd arrive about Weds and I'd watch 'em (it wasn't too hard to avoid knowing the outcome as local media never covered the Bills). But having the game on tape made it possible to rewind and slowmo and start to pick apart what was going on, so I started learning more about the game. I love a good defensive chess match now. 4 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said: I say it because it is comical that EVERY NFL TEAM has done it every year at least once, but the Buffalo Bills..... I believe this has been asked before, but can you kindly direct me to the source of your statistic that every NFL team except the Bills has thrown for 300 yds at least once every year? Because I can not find this, and a quick scan indicates it is not quite correct.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 1 hour ago, dave mcbride said: Have you watched the Bucs over the last 4 games or so? If you had, you might be rethinking what you say above about Winston. That offense is a juggernaut right now. He is better than the naysayers suggest, and he has shown a lot of improvement over the course of the season. Basically, the dominant narrative around him is stale and not all that reflective of current reality. (Also, re: your argument about throwing to the wrong team, Mike Martz always thought that was overrated and didn't care if Kurt Warner threw a reasonably large number of INTs (short-ish punts, in his book).) I'm certainly not advocating INTs, but it is undeniable that the Bucs' offense has turned a corner. They have averaged 35 ppg over the last four games, and they are simply better than their record. They lost to Seattle in OT in a game they shouldn't have lost, and they lost to the Giants because their kicker missed a chip shot at the end of the game. I agree with you about Allen. He is still very young. Ah hahahahahahahahaha ?Ahh hahahah ? Sorry, Dave, but I live in St Louis and know people who knew Martz when he coached here, family friends of the Martz and players and coaches kids and such. That's just funny. I mean, Martz may have SAID something like that in the media or something, but it's not reflective of what he said to the team or likely believed. There are limited situations where it's probably true - if you're in the other team's territory but outside FG range and it's 4th down, an INT can be kind of punt like. That's like, a limited 15-20 yd range of field position and 1 out of 4 downs. Warner's 2 INTs had a big effect on St Louis losing the 2001 SB to the Pats. What Martz thought was probably more in line with his famous sideline rant about Incognito which went something like "what the ***** is wrong with that mother *****?" as he ripped his headseat off and threw it. When Warner was a functional NFL QB, BTW, his overall TD to INT ratio was 1.7 or better. [He threw a lot of picks, but he also threw a Ton of TDs]. Jameis Winston approached 1.5 TD/INT his first 2 years - hit it his 2nd as I recall - and it's not an accident that was the year the team had its best record with him at QB. Not since - including this year, 1.25. It's actually not the absolute number of picks that's probably important, it's the ratio - the QB needs to be generating something like 50% more points for the team than he puts at risk through INTs for the offense to be functional and the team to win. 2
Billsfan1972 Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said: I used to be a fan watching for the ooooohs and aaaaaahhs of those long balls. Loved Darryl Lamonica. I never played football, I just learned the positions and some of the plays talking to my Grandpa who was athletic but never played but street stuff. My perspective changed in the late '80s- '90s living outside of Buffalo in the age of VCR. My fam in B'lo used to record the televised games and send them to me. They'd arrive about Weds and I'd watch 'em (it wasn't too hard to avoid knowing the outcome as local media never covered the Bills). But having the game on tape made it possible to rewind and slowmo and start to pick apart what was going on, so I started learning more about the game. I love a good defensive chess match now. I believe this has been asked before, but can you kindly direct me to the source of your statistic that every NFL team except the Bills has thrown for 300 yds at least once every year? Because I can not find this, and a quick scan indicates it is not quite correct. Maybe 1-2 teams may not have done it in one league. Will admit that Arizona may not have in 2018 (maybe the worst offense in all of football)......
Hapless Bills Fan Posted December 20, 2019 Posted December 20, 2019 9 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said: Maybe 1-2 teams may not have done it in one league. Will admit that Arizona may not have in 2018 (maybe the worst offense in all of football)...... OK. What is the source of this statistic of yours, because I would like to go look it up for myself? Since you say it so definitively and now acknowledge but one exception, you must have a source. Thanks.
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